Opinion from a "Pactard"

[killersheep]

haha, man it's kinda sad that ya'll need to console each other after your boy won.

Anywho, SSM blew it as expected huffin, puffin gun shy.

I don't hold what happened in the ropes against Pac at all, he had an unwilling dance partner. The choice of opponent it must be said was a waste of time. Pac has done amazing things in his time feats unparalleled by anyone else in the history of boxing, THIS fight however had nothing to do with that.

[killersheep]

More of a general comment/question.

Is it discrediting if you never thought the opponent belonged there in the 1st place.
At the very moment the fight was announced?

Manny fighting Shane is no worse than Calzaghe fighting Roy Jones or Marquez fighting Casamayor the only difference being that Manny dominated his guy more than the other two did.

Agreed, they were all waste of time fights, except JMM/Casamayor had less evidence and Marquez didn't have the options of Calzaghe or Pac.

[Kev]

More of a general comment/question.

Is it discrediting if you never thought the opponent belonged there in the 1st place.
At the very moment the fight was announced?

Manny fighting Shane is no worse than Calzaghe fighting Roy Jones or Marquez fighting Casamayor the only difference being that Manny dominated his guy more than the other two did.

Agreed, they were all waste of time fights, except JMM/Casamayor had less evidence and Marquez didn't have the options of Calzaghe or Pac.

I think both were more shot than Shane. Casa lost virtually every round to Santa Cruz a C level fighter. Shane had only lost to Floyd.

I dont see any as waste of time fights really. These guys work hard to get to the top and when there they like to amke some money for their retirements by fighting each other.

Nobody complained when Cotto fought Mayorga or Marquez rematched Katsidis.

The bar for Manny is set extremely high. It seems like only Marquez or Martinez will satisfy his detractors but even then only if Manny goes into their weight classes.

The excpectations of him are unrealistic which is not really surprising as the wish of his detractors is to see him lose...

[killersheep]

More of a general comment/question.

Is it discrediting if you never thought the opponent belonged there in the 1st place.
At the very moment the fight was announced?

Manny fighting Shane is no worse than Calzaghe fighting Roy Jones or Marquez fighting Casamayor the only difference being that Manny dominated his guy more than the other two did.

Agreed, they were all waste of time fights, except JMM/Casamayor had less evidence and Marquez didn't have the options of Calzaghe or Pac.

I think both were more shot than Shane. Casa lost virtually every round to Santa Cruz a C level fighter. Shane had only lost to Floyd.

I dont see any as waste of time fights really. These guys work hard to get to the top and when there they like to amke some money for their retirements by fighting each other.

Nobody complained when Cotto fought Mayorga or Marquez rematched Katsidis.

The bar for Manny is set extremely high. It seems like only Marquez or Martinez will satisfy his detractors but even then only if Manny goes into their weight classes.

The excpectations of him are unrealistic which is not really surprising as the wish of his detractors is to see him lose...

A few points here, JMM only fought Katsidis once. Cotto was still trying out power at 154 as Foreman hits lighter than most lightweights. Cepillo had fought back to prove himself still relevant at lightweight and was the LINEAL champ at the weight class regardless of how the judges had helped him get there. As an aside Mayorga had pretty much outboxed SSM before that before the ref decided not to enforce the neutral corner rule which gave the chance for Sugar to get the KO.

Of course the bar is set higher for Manny than anyone else, he is atop virtually every p4p list of anyone that matters, and he has the pick of the litter of whom to fight.

[marbleheadmaui]

More of a general comment/question.

Is it discrediting if you never thought the opponent belonged there in the 1st place.
At the very moment the fight was announced?

Manny fighting Shane is no worse than Calzaghe fighting Roy Jones or Marquez fighting Casamayor the only difference being that Manny dominated his guy more than the other two did.

Agreed, they were all waste of time fights, except JMM/Casamayor had less evidence and Marquez didn't have the options of Calzaghe or Pac.

Wait a minute, Casamyor was, at the time, the legit 135 champion of the world! Was he past his best? Yup. But he's STILL the man! NOTHING wrong with that fight.

[killersheep]

More of a general comment/question.

Is it discrediting if you never thought the opponent belonged there in the 1st place.
At the very moment the fight was announced?

Manny fighting Shane is no worse than Calzaghe fighting Roy Jones or Marquez fighting Casamayor the only difference being that Manny dominated his guy more than the other two did.

Agreed, they were all waste of time fights, except JMM/Casamayor had less evidence and Marquez didn't have the options of Calzaghe or Pac.

Wait a minute, Casamyor was, at the time, the legit 135 champion of the world! Was he past his best? Yup. But he's STILL the man! NOTHING wrong with that fight.

See my post above yours.

[Kev]

More of a general comment/question.

Is it discrediting if you never thought the opponent belonged there in the 1st place.
At the very moment the fight was announced?

Manny fighting Shane is no worse than Calzaghe fighting Roy Jones or Marquez fighting Casamayor the only difference being that Manny dominated his guy more than the other two did.

Agreed, they were all waste of time fights, except JMM/Casamayor had less evidence and Marquez didn't have the options of Calzaghe or Pac.

I think both were more shot than Shane. Casa lost virtually every round to Santa Cruz a C level fighter. Shane had only lost to Floyd.

I dont see any as waste of time fights really. These guys work hard to get to the top and when there they like to amke some money for their retirements by fighting each other.

Nobody complained when Cotto fought Mayorga or Marquez rematched Katsidis.

The bar for Manny is set extremely high. It seems like only Marquez or Martinez will satisfy his detractors but even then only if Manny goes into their weight classes.

The excpectations of him are unrealistic which is not really surprising as the wish of his detractors is to see him lose...

A few points here, JMM only fought Katsidis once. Cotto was still trying out power at 154 as Foreman hits lighter than most lightweights. Cepillo had fought back to prove himself still relevant at lightweight and was the LINEAL champ at the weight class regardless of how the judges had helped him get there. As an aside Mayorga had pretty much outboxed SSM before that before the ref decided not to enforce the neutral corner rule which gave the chance for Sugar to get the KO.

Of course the bar is set higher for Manny than anyone else, he is atop virtually every p4p list of anyone that matters, and he has the pick of the litter of whom to fight.

I meant Diaz, dont know why I said Katsidis. Who was there for Manny to fight then seeing as he had the pick? Id argue only Berto, but then nobody thought Berto was ready, and seeing how he performed against Ortiz that assessment was likely correct.

Manny is at the stage in his career when he wants the big names. There are some decent young fighters out there, but none have a profile, outside of Marquez who would you have seen him fight?

[generalbulldog]

It's not just Manny but Floyd as well in that the bar is set extremely high. Take Sergio Martinez. People were saying he's the new and real top fighter in the sport not Manny and Floyd. And they were defending Martinez possibly fighting Ishida, a C level fighter that is a journeyman that defeated a hot prospect. Then the fight with Sergei Dzinziruk who was a 154 pound fighter was considered to be a great fight against elite comp not like the 2 cherry picking frauds.

Do you know the kind of shit Mayweather and Pac would get for fighting say a Rafal Jackiewicz
or fighting Tim Bradley who's a career 140 pound fighter?

I rest my case.

[marbleheadmaui]

More of a general comment/question.

Is it discrediting if you never thought the opponent belonged there in the 1st place.
At the very moment the fight was announced?

Manny fighting Shane is no worse than Calzaghe fighting Roy Jones or Marquez fighting Casamayor the only difference being that Manny dominated his guy more than the other two did.

Agreed, they were all waste of time fights, except JMM/Casamayor had less evidence and Marquez didn't have the options of Calzaghe or Pac.

Wait a minute, Casamyor was, at the time, the legit 135 champion of the world! Was he past his best? Yup. But he's STILL the man! NOTHING wrong with that fight.

See my post above yours.

[Channeling Emily Latella] Oh, that's very different...never mind

[Kev]

It's not just Manny but Floyd as well in that the bar is set extremely high. Take Sergio Martinez. People were saying he's the new and real top fighter in the sport not Manny and Floyd. And they were defending Martinez possibly fighting Ishida, a C level fighter that is a journeyman that defeated a hot prospect. Then the fight with Sergei Dzinziruk who was a 154 pound fighter was considered to be a great fight against elite comp not like the 2 cherry picking frauds.

Do you know the kind of shit Mayweather and Pac would get for fighting say a Rafal Jackiewicz
or fighting Tim Bradley who's a career 140 pound fighter?

I rest my case.

Its true mate. Martinez and Donaire get no criticism at all. Martinez defends his 160 lb title against an unranked 154 lb fighter and at a catchweight and not a word of criticism from anyone.

[killersheep]

More of a general comment/question.

Is it discrediting if you never thought the opponent belonged there in the 1st place.
At the very moment the fight was announced?

Manny fighting Shane is no worse than Calzaghe fighting Roy Jones or Marquez fighting Casamayor the only difference being that Manny dominated his guy more than the other two did.

Agreed, they were all waste of time fights, except JMM/Casamayor had less evidence and Marquez didn't have the options of Calzaghe or Pac.

I think both were more shot than Shane. Casa lost virtually every round to Santa Cruz a C level fighter. Shane had only lost to Floyd.

I dont see any as waste of time fights really. These guys work hard to get to the top and when there they like to amke some money for their retirements by fighting each other.

Nobody complained when Cotto fought Mayorga or Marquez rematched Katsidis.

The bar for Manny is set extremely high. It seems like only Marquez or Martinez will satisfy his detractors but even then only if Manny goes into their weight classes.

The excpectations of him are unrealistic which is not really surprising as the wish of his detractors is to see him lose...

A few points here, JMM only fought Katsidis once. Cotto was still trying out power at 154 as Foreman hits lighter than most lightweights. Cepillo had fought back to prove himself still relevant at lightweight and was the LINEAL champ at the weight class regardless of how the judges had helped him get there. As an aside Mayorga had pretty much outboxed SSM before that before the ref decided not to enforce the neutral corner rule which gave the chance for Sugar to get the KO.

Of course the bar is set higher for Manny than anyone else, he is atop virtually every p4p list of anyone that matters, and he has the pick of the litter of whom to fight.

I meant Diaz, dont know why I said Katsidis. Who was there for Manny to fight then seeing as he had the pick? Id argue only Berto, but then nobody thought Berto was ready, and seeing how he performed against Ortiz that assessment was likely correct.

Manny is at the stage in his career when he wants the big names. There are some decent young fighters out there, but none have a profile, outside of Marquez who would you have seen him fight?

Berto (shiny undefeated young WW strap holder), Marquez (to erase the fights that are his question marks on his resume), Martinez (fighter of the year, etc), Rios (bad blood, guaranteed brawl good California following), Brook (spark out another Brit, always worth tuning in for) any of them were better choices going in.

Of course noone gave Marquez shit for rematching Diaz the first fight was FOTY worthy, and people wanted to see it again.

[Kev]

More of a general comment/question.

Is it discrediting if you never thought the opponent belonged there in the 1st place.
At the very moment the fight was announced?

Manny fighting Shane is no worse than Calzaghe fighting Roy Jones or Marquez fighting Casamayor the only difference being that Manny dominated his guy more than the other two did.

Agreed, they were all waste of time fights, except JMM/Casamayor had less evidence and Marquez didn't have the options of Calzaghe or Pac.

Wait a minute, Casamyor was, at the time, the legit 135 champion of the world! Was he past his best? Yup. But he's STILL the man! NOTHING wrong with that fight.

I didnt criticise the fight read my post again. I said Casamayor was as shot as Mosley. He looked dreadful against Corrales, who himself was finished and he got beat by Cruz almost as one sidedly as Floyd beat Shane. He beat Katsidis but had to go through hell to do it and he's looked bad in every fight other than against Marquez since.

He's probably more shot then Shane, its just Shane fought the two best fighters in the world.

[marbleheadmaui]

It's not just Manny but Floyd as well in that the bar is set extremely high. Take Sergio Martinez. People were saying he's the new and real top fighter in the sport not Manny and Floyd. And they were defending Martinez possibly fighting Ishida, a C level fighter that is a journeyman that defeated a hot prospect. Then the fight with Sergei Dzinziruk who was a 154 pound fighter was considered to be a great fight against elite comp not like the 2 cherry picking frauds.

Do you know the kind of shit Mayweather and Pac would get for fighting say a Rafal Jackiewicz
or fighting Tim Bradley who's a career 140 pound fighter?

I rest my case.

Let's reopen that one for a second. Sergio is stuck because he has ZERO good choices. Just none! I mean that division is as bad as it gets at the moment. I cannot think of a fight that I'd be excited about.

Floyd on the other hand has had, in the last 2-3 years a whole list of reasonable options. Margarito, Cotto, Clottey, Manny, and what has he done? Made JMM move two divisions and fought a badly faded Shane. Manny has in that same period jumped four divisions and taken on a series of highly ranked guys. It ain't the same. You know another guy who has had a whole series of good choices and not done much in the last 2-3 years? Nonito Donaire.

More generally, the lack of depth in the sport at the moment is appalling. How many of the 17 have as many as five quality fighters? 118, 126, 168? Maybe 122 and 135 if you're willing to stretch? Little bit scary.

[marbleheadmaui]

More of a general comment/question.

Is it discrediting if you never thought the opponent belonged there in the 1st place.
At the very moment the fight was announced?

Manny fighting Shane is no worse than Calzaghe fighting Roy Jones or Marquez fighting Casamayor the only difference being that Manny dominated his guy more than the other two did.

Agreed, they were all waste of time fights, except JMM/Casamayor had less evidence and Marquez didn't have the options of Calzaghe or Pac.

Wait a minute, Casamyor was, at the time, the legit 135 champion of the world! Was he past his best? Yup. But he's STILL the man! NOTHING wrong with that fight.

I didnt criticise the fight read my post again. I said Casamayor was as shot as Mosley. He looked dreadful against Corrales, who himself was finished and he got beat by Cruz almost as one sidedly as Floyd beat Shane. He beat Katsidis but had to go through hell to do it and he's looked bad in every fight other than against Marquez since.

He's probably more shot then Shane, its just Shane fought the two best fighters in the world.

Fair enough!

[Kev]

More of a general comment/question.

Is it discrediting if you never thought the opponent belonged there in the 1st place.
At the very moment the fight was announced?

Manny fighting Shane is no worse than Calzaghe fighting Roy Jones or Marquez fighting Casamayor the only difference being that Manny dominated his guy more than the other two did.

Agreed, they were all waste of time fights, except JMM/Casamayor had less evidence and Marquez didn't have the options of Calzaghe or Pac.

I think both were more shot than Shane. Casa lost virtually every round to Santa Cruz a C level fighter. Shane had only lost to Floyd.

I dont see any as waste of time fights really. These guys work hard to get to the top and when there they like to amke some money for their retirements by fighting each other.

Nobody complained when Cotto fought Mayorga or Marquez rematched Katsidis.

The bar for Manny is set extremely high. It seems like only Marquez or Martinez will satisfy his detractors but even then only if Manny goes into their weight classes.

The excpectations of him are unrealistic which is not really surprising as the wish of his detractors is to see him lose...

A few points here, JMM only fought Katsidis once. Cotto was still trying out power at 154 as Foreman hits lighter than most lightweights. Cepillo had fought back to prove himself still relevant at lightweight and was the LINEAL champ at the weight class regardless of how the judges had helped him get there. As an aside Mayorga had pretty much outboxed SSM before that before the ref decided not to enforce the neutral corner rule which gave the chance for Sugar to get the KO.

Of course the bar is set higher for Manny than anyone else, he is atop virtually every p4p list of anyone that matters, and he has the pick of the litter of whom to fight.

I meant Diaz, dont know why I said Katsidis. Who was there for Manny to fight then seeing as he had the pick? Id argue only Berto, but then nobody thought Berto was ready, and seeing how he performed against Ortiz that assessment was likely correct.

Manny is at the stage in his career when he wants the big names. There are some decent young fighters out there, but none have a profile, outside of Marquez who would you have seen him fight?

Berto (shiny undefeated young WW strap holder), Marquez (to erase the fights that are his question marks on his resume), Martinez (fighter of the year, etc), Rios (bad blood, guaranteed brawl good California following), Brook (spark out another Brit, always worth tuning in for) any of them were better choices going in.

Of course noone gave Marquez shit for rematching Diaz the first fight was FOTY worthy, and people wanted to see it again.

I love how with Manny what weight class fighters are in just doesnt matter. Marquez and Rios are both lightweight champs, if you think Kell Brook was more deserving of a shot than against the p4p number than Sugar Shane then we will forever disagree, Id love to see how they would sell that fight against the British welterweight champion.

Berto was no more fancied as a challenge than Shane was, everybody on here said he wasnt ready.

Now try picking some fighters from his own weight class, the way you wou;d for every other fighter and see what you can come up with.