Modern day ATG.

[marbleheadmaui]

Sorry, but this is an absolutely dismal time in the sport. It just is. From about 1995 on has been as bad a period as the the sport has seen since the late 1950's. Fewer fighters, fewer fights, weaker talent pool.

But it is still my favorite sport.

In terms of breadth of talent you have a point, but the period you mention has produced
Whitaker, Floyd, Manny (all of whom have a claim for being in the top 10 of all time) We have had RJJ, B-Hop, MAB, Morales, ODLH, Tito, Finito. Not all listed were prime after 1995, but were all active.

I't comparitive of course. Take 1965-1980 as a comparison. Ali, Tiger, Benvenuti, Griffith, Napoles Carlos Ortiz, Laguna, Locche, Elorde, Saldivar, Jofre, Harada, Kingpetch, Frazier, Foreman, Duran, Buchanan, Hearns, Leonard, Hagler, Benitez, Olivares, Zarate, Bob Foster, Monzon, Kid Pambele, Galindez, Palomino, Little Red Lopez, Arguello, The Hawk, Miguel Canto, Larry Holmes, Bobby Chacon, Salvador Sanchez, Eusabio Pedroza, Bazooke Gomez, Jeff Chandler, Yoko Gushiken, Pipino Cuevas (and I'm beginning to bore even me).

Like I said, boxing is still my favorite sport, but I don't think anyone wants to make the argument this is anything but a down period. The only question is how badly down.

None of Manny, Floyd or Sweet Pea have an argument for the top ten in my view. More like top 30 or so, top 50 or so and top 20 or so respectively. Certainly Ali, Duran and Leonard belong ahead of all three and Ali and Duran are probably both top tenners.

One thing I have come to understand is just how badly the lack of depth has screwed up the port. 25 years ago a guy like Marvin Hagler or Carlos Monzon before him didn't have to move divisions to find worthy challengers. The 160's were chock full of competent, talented guys that fight fans could see were threats. Over 12 years those two defended what? 25-30 times? The division just kept reloading. Today look at what Manny has had to do to fight twice a year against perceived solid challenegers. And in some corners he is being pilloried even for this! And its not like manny is the only guy who has to move to find fights. I mean what is Sergio Martinez to do?

I'm not sure there is anything to do about it. Just an observation.

I used to feel that way, but I like you used to very much favour older fighters. I have changed that view to a degree in the past 5-10 years, I think we see the past with rose tinted spectacles sometimes. Whether or not the 3 I mentioned belong in the top 10 or not, they certainly all 'have an argument' imo at least. As does RJJ.

If fights were 12 rounds in 1981, I wonder how different Hearns and Leonards career paths would have been (if at all)

Yup. No way to know of course. I think Arguello would have been hurt by a 12 round distance as well whereas guys like Benitez would have been helped.

I think folks today tend to be prisoners of the moment with regards to boxing. They look at other sports and think (in most cases rightly) that they are seeing those sports at their highest level. So they bring the same starting point to boxing. But if one takes a step back one realizes that SIZE is a huge reason for the improvement in sports as are improved training methods, more resources being devoted to them and more participants playing more often. If this were true of boxing we'd be in a golden age of heavyweights, right?

But of course none of that applies to boxing. Why? We have fewer fighters (one reason being guys can now make money in a lot more sports than they could 50 years ago), fewer facilities, fewer fights, we've been training fighters for 300 years and because boxing is weight restricted. ALL the measureables that get one comfortable that other sports are at their best show boxing cannot be anywhere close.

Then of course the eye test. Today there is less diversity of styles and fewer craftsman. Why? Dearth of teachers. Go watch a series of fights from the 1930's-1970's and then watch guys from today. With only a handful of exceptions, it is a noticeably lesser sport.

But still the best one there is.

[Pavlik]

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

[marbleheadmaui]

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

[Pavlik]

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

middleweight champ to heavyweight champ albeit facing a second rate heavyweight warrants great respect imo.

[marbleheadmaui]

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

middleweight champ to heavyweight champ albeit facing a second rate heavyweight warrants great respect imo.

Except he was never middleweight champ in any sense that means anything (ala Hagler, Monzon, Greb, Robinson, Pavlik). He won a vacant strap against an unranked BHOP. Now don't get me wrong, Jones was a great, great fighter. But Lopez fought every conceivable challenger and had 25 defenses of the lineal title. I mean you literally cannot name a guy Lopez should have fought...or at least I can't. He did it the way I think it oughtta be done. There's 6-7 names Jones really could have improved his resume with. My take anyway.

[generalbulldog]

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

Jones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.

[marbleheadmaui]

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

Jones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.

Well hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).

I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.

[generalbulldog]

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

Jones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.

Well hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).

I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.

Who on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.

[Mr140]

If had to pick the best fighter of the past 20 years I have to say with out a doubt it is Lennox Lewis. I think he is a top ten heavyweight in upper part of the list. I don't think he ever really lost in his prime. Another big thing to me is also when you are the top heavy it means you can beat anyone. I am not taking about pound for pound i talking about literally you can beat everyone who is boxing at that time in the ring.

[marbleheadmaui]

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

Jones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.

Well hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).

I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.

Who on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.

There can be no question that Lopez's defeat of Alvarez is more impressive than RJJ's win over BHOP. Alvarewz weighed in as a FLYWEIGHT and was at his absolute peak and an old Lopez still got him. BHOP at that time was an unranked comer. The win over Toney is, of course, the best on either resume.

It doesn't matter a lick whose "fault" it was. The fact is one either fights the fights or they don't. This ain't the Olympics, one doesn't get credit for perceived walkovers.

[Violent Demise]

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

Jones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.

Well hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).

I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.

Who on Lopez's resume is just as good or better than prime Toney and Hopkins? I'll be waiting. I rather take quality over quantity any day. And it's not RJJ's fault that the guys you mentioned didn't make the fights happened, they wanted Jones to come to them and fight them in their own home countries. That stuff just isn't happening. That's like guys like Ortiz, Zaveck, Senchenko, Berto wanting Pacquiao to fight them on their terms. Which isn't happening.

That's the problem I see with a lot of people today. Not saying you in particular. But it's that a lot of people don't know much or maybe never even heard of some of the names Lopez beat. So they don't count them or just assume there no good. Therefore giving no credit to a fighter who beat them. When in reality a lot of credit should be given.

[Fenster]

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

Jones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.

Well hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).

I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.

I think you're contradicting yourself here with regards to an earlier claim you've made.

You believe there has been a noticeable decline in the standard of boxing over the years, right? You believe this is due to dwindling numbers taking up the sport.

Basically - the more fighters the greater strength in depth.

Lopez pomp was fought at straw/minimum. There are currently just 296 registered professionals operating in this weight class.

Jones pomp was fought at middle/supermiddle/lightheavy. Across those three divisions there are currently 2812 pro fighters.

This indicates that Jones fought in a far more competitive pool purely down to his size. It is possible that fighters considered "average" in a pool of 3000 could be seen as "great" amongst 300, right? And the bigger the pool the more likelihood of fighters NOT meeting.

Therefore the lack of competition Lopez had compared to a bigger fighter like Jones should surely be considered when comparing them

[marbleheadmaui]

Pac= boxer of the decade 2000's
Pbf= can beat Pac. inhuman skills.
RJJ= boxer of the decade 90's

I often wonder why Jones would deserve that title? It seems to me Ricardo Lopez is at least as deserving.

Jones in his prime looked unstoppable, plus his win over prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins is much better than anyone on Lopez's resume then factor in that Jones fought in 5 weight classes. I don't even think it's up for debate between RJJ and Lopez. The only other person that can maybe challenge RJJ's for boxer of the 90s maybe Whitaker.

Well hold on there General! Lopez KO'd Saman Sorjaturong in two rounds. How good was he? He later knocked Chiquita Gonzales out. An old Lopez also defeated a peak Bufalo Alvarez who might be the second best 105 ever. Sure Jones fought in five divisions but he didn't take on the top guy at heavy or a series of top guys at 168 (Benn, Eubank, Liles, Calzaghe) or at 175 (Darius M).

I agree Jones LOOKED unstoppable. But so does Oklahoma when they play Rice or Baylor. In order to find out whether someone actually IS unstoppable? Ya gotta fight the top guys over and over again. Like Sweet Pea and Lopez did. Again, Jones was great, but he left questions Lopez and Sweet Pea never did.

I think you're contradicting yourself here with regards to an earlier claim you've made.

You believe there has been a noticeable decline in the standard of boxing over the years, right? You believe this is due to dwindling numbers taking up the sport.

Basically - the more fighters the greater strength in depth.

Lopez pomp was fought at straw/minimum. There are currently just 296 registered professionals operating in this weight class.

Jones pomp was fought at middle/supermiddle/lightheavy. Across those three divisions there are currently 2812 pro fighters.

This indicates that Jones fought in a far more competitive pool purely down to his size. It is possible that fighters considered "average" in a pool of 3000 could be seen as "great" amongst 300, right? And the bigger the pool the more likelihood of fighters NOT meeting.

Therefore the lack of competition Lopez had compared to a bigger fighter like Jones should surely be considered when comparing them

I ABSOLUTELY concede the point that at the end of the Bell Curve of Human Size (heavyweight and flyweight in original temrs) the competition level over time is AT BEST inconsistent compared to the other divisions for EXACTLY the reasons you noted. It is why I don't make the claim Finito is a top 25 All-Timer despite being only the second fighter in history with 25 defenses of a lineal crown (Joe Louis being the other). But Lopez fought EVERYBODY. Jones didn't. I'd NEVER argue Lopez's run as the equal of say Abe Attel's 20 defenses at featherweight for example, for the reasons you stated. Had Jones fought everyone, instead of having 6-7 holes as I identified, then there could be no comparison.

But that's not what happened. Great post by the way.