Top 5 of USA, Mexico, Philippines, and Puerto Rico

[marbleheadmaui]

Marblehead, that was a great breakdown of the Zarate-Martinez fight. And I apreciate the nudge in the right direction with Olivares. I might have to dump poor Miguel Canto from the top 5. Mexico is TOUGH. It has a cross-section of all the different pillars of greatness upon which fighters can be deemed great: fast and furious reigns of destruction, longer reigns where champs face less-demanding comp (with a few nuggets sprinkled in as well) while building great records, young greats dying young, fighters whose stars shine brighter than their resumes might, etc.

It's a challenge. And a top 5 is a one way of leaving Barrera, Morales, and Marquez off the list. As history shakes it all out, it's gonna be hard ranking those guys accordingly. I can seemingly make a case for each guy. A top 10 would be brutal. Thank you for insight.

As you rightly note, criteria is everything in trying to figure these things out. For me? Extended title reigns (and I mean REAL title reigns, not some Orlando Canizales defending a strap 15+ times against largely unranked guys) are very powerful. Canto's 15 or so defenses as THE MAN at 112 is very powerful. though only perhaps 10 of those were high quality defenses.

You know who falls out for me [gritting teeth]? The guy who, had he lived might have ended up the concensus number one, Chava Sanchez. Yes he beat HOFers on four occasions as well as Castillo and LaPorte and Castanon. He is the finest feather I have seen in my lifetime in terms of who I think would win a round robin of the guys I've seen. But he just died too young to have the overall body of work of the other guys.

You, of course raise the central point with regard to Mexico. I could make credible cases for JCC, Olivares, Canto, Sanchez, Lopez, Zarate, Sadlivar, Morales, MAB, both Marquez brothers, Kid Azteca, Baby Arizmendi, Chuiquita Gonzales and maybe even Pipino Cuevas and Daniel Zaragoza being in the top ten. That's 16 guys! You pick the criteria and I'll tell you who the top ten are. Trying to get to five? Impossible!

[generalbulldog]

Marblehead, that was a great breakdown of the Zarate-Martinez fight. And I apreciate the nudge in the right direction with Olivares. I might have to dump poor Miguel Canto from the top 5. Mexico is TOUGH. It has a cross-section of all the different pillars of greatness upon which fighters can be deemed great: fast and furious reigns of destruction, longer reigns where champs face less-demanding comp (with a few nuggets sprinkled in as well) while building great records, young greats dying young, fighters whose stars shine brighter than their resumes might, etc.

It's a challenge. And a top 5 is a one way of leaving Barrera, Morales, and Marquez off the list. As history shakes it all out, it's gonna be hard ranking those guys accordingly. I can seemingly make a case for each guy. A top 10 would be brutal. Thank you for insight.

As you rightly note, criteria is everything in trying to figure these things out. For me? Extended title reigns (and I mean REAL title reigns, not some Orlando Canizales defending a strap 15+ times against largely unranked guys) are very powerful. Canto's 15 or so defenses as THE MAN at 112 is very powerful. though only perhaps 10 of those were high quality defenses.

You know who falls out for me [gritting teeth]? The guy who, had he lived might have ended up the concensus number one, Chava Sanchez. Yes he beat HOFers on four occasions as well as Castillo and LaPorte and Castanon. He is the finest feather I have seen in my lifetime in terms of who I think would win a round robin of the guys I've seen. But he just died too young to have the overall body of work of the other guys.

You, of course raise the central point with regard to Mexico. I could make credible cases for JCC, Olivares, Canto, Sanchez, Lopez, Zarate, Sadlivar, Morales, MAB, both Marquez brothers, Kid Azteca, Baby Arizmendi, Chuiquita Gonzales and maybe even Pipino Cuevas and Daniel Zaragoza being in the top ten. That's 16 guys! You pick the criteria and I'll tell you who the top ten are. Trying to get to five? Impossible!

Since you just mentioned Sanchez. I would like to point this out. I remember in the other thread where you said Roy Jones beating Hopkins was not impressive at all, whereas everyone has given Sanchez and I think maybe you would too although you haven't stated for beating hall of famers like let's say Azumah Nelson that was still very green at that part of his career, even more so than Bernard?

I would just like a clarification. Wouldn't the same standard hold for Sanchez for beating guys like Nelson who was still pretty much green? And Nelson wasn't even ranked. The same argument you used that Hopkins was not a great victory for Jones (even though he was ranked top 10 when he fought Jones).

[marbleheadmaui]

Marblehead, that was a great breakdown of the Zarate-Martinez fight. And I apreciate the nudge in the right direction with Olivares. I might have to dump poor Miguel Canto from the top 5. Mexico is TOUGH. It has a cross-section of all the different pillars of greatness upon which fighters can be deemed great: fast and furious reigns of destruction, longer reigns where champs face less-demanding comp (with a few nuggets sprinkled in as well) while building great records, young greats dying young, fighters whose stars shine brighter than their resumes might, etc.

It's a challenge. And a top 5 is a one way of leaving Barrera, Morales, and Marquez off the list. As history shakes it all out, it's gonna be hard ranking those guys accordingly. I can seemingly make a case for each guy. A top 10 would be brutal. Thank you for insight.

As you rightly note, criteria is everything in trying to figure these things out. For me? Extended title reigns (and I mean REAL title reigns, not some Orlando Canizales defending a strap 15+ times against largely unranked guys) are very powerful. Canto's 15 or so defenses as THE MAN at 112 is very powerful. though only perhaps 10 of those were high quality defenses.

You know who falls out for me [gritting teeth]? The guy who, had he lived might have ended up the concensus number one, Chava Sanchez. Yes he beat HOFers on four occasions as well as Castillo and LaPorte and Castanon. He is the finest feather I have seen in my lifetime in terms of who I think would win a round robin of the guys I've seen. But he just died too young to have the overall body of work of the other guys.

You, of course raise the central point with regard to Mexico. I could make credible cases for JCC, Olivares, Canto, Sanchez, Lopez, Zarate, Sadlivar, Morales, MAB, both Marquez brothers, Kid Azteca, Baby Arizmendi, Chuiquita Gonzales and maybe even Pipino Cuevas and Daniel Zaragoza being in the top ten. That's 16 guys! You pick the criteria and I'll tell you who the top ten are. Trying to get to five? Impossible!

Since you just mentioned Sanchez. I would like to point this out. I remember in the other thread where you said Roy Jones beating Hopkins was not impressive at all, whereas everyone has given Sanchez and I think maybe you would too although you haven't stated for beating hall of famers like let's say Azumah Nelson that was still very green at that part of his career, even more so than Bernard?

I would just like a clarification. Wouldn't the same standard hold for Sanchez for beating guys like Nelson who was still pretty much green? And Nelson wasn't even ranked. The same argument you used that Hopkins was not a great victory for Jones (even though he was).

[sigh]

I am as guilty as anyone of giving Sanchez the benefit of the doubt on many things, including Azumah, because, well, he died on a midnight pussy run at 23! So a lot of us, me included, look at him and say look at the names around him when he died available for fights. Rematches with Azumah, Bazooka and LaPorte, Pedroza, Lockridge and up at 130 Camacho, Chacon, Navarette and Boza Edwards. So I illogically and unfairly say "well he would have beaten at least SOME of those guys" so rewarding him for Azumah is perhaps just.

Now to be clear on the Roy-BHOP debate. What was at issue in THAT discussion was NOT whether it was a great win. In hindsight it is Jones second most important. The issue was could one reasonably call Jones 160 champion based on that fight. My answer remains NO! One doesn't become a legit champ by beating the #9 ranked guy.

I once did an alternate career for Sanchez had he lived? And interestingly I had his first defeat (going forward) being in a rematch with Azumah two years after they'd first fought.

Is that enough of an answer?

[generalbulldog]

Marblehead, that was a great breakdown of the Zarate-Martinez fight. And I apreciate the nudge in the right direction with Olivares. I might have to dump poor Miguel Canto from the top 5. Mexico is TOUGH. It has a cross-section of all the different pillars of greatness upon which fighters can be deemed great: fast and furious reigns of destruction, longer reigns where champs face less-demanding comp (with a few nuggets sprinkled in as well) while building great records, young greats dying young, fighters whose stars shine brighter than their resumes might, etc.

It's a challenge. And a top 5 is a one way of leaving Barrera, Morales, and Marquez off the list. As history shakes it all out, it's gonna be hard ranking those guys accordingly. I can seemingly make a case for each guy. A top 10 would be brutal. Thank you for insight.

As you rightly note, criteria is everything in trying to figure these things out. For me? Extended title reigns (and I mean REAL title reigns, not some Orlando Canizales defending a strap 15+ times against largely unranked guys) are very powerful. Canto's 15 or so defenses as THE MAN at 112 is very powerful. though only perhaps 10 of those were high quality defenses.

You know who falls out for me [gritting teeth]? The guy who, had he lived might have ended up the concensus number one, Chava Sanchez. Yes he beat HOFers on four occasions as well as Castillo and LaPorte and Castanon. He is the finest feather I have seen in my lifetime in terms of who I think would win a round robin of the guys I've seen. But he just died too young to have the overall body of work of the other guys.

You, of course raise the central point with regard to Mexico. I could make credible cases for JCC, Olivares, Canto, Sanchez, Lopez, Zarate, Sadlivar, Morales, MAB, both Marquez brothers, Kid Azteca, Baby Arizmendi, Chuiquita Gonzales and maybe even Pipino Cuevas and Daniel Zaragoza being in the top ten. That's 16 guys! You pick the criteria and I'll tell you who the top ten are. Trying to get to five? Impossible!

Since you just mentioned Sanchez. I would like to point this out. I remember in the other thread where you said Roy Jones beating Hopkins was not impressive at all, whereas everyone has given Sanchez and I think maybe you would too although you haven't stated for beating hall of famers like let's say Azumah Nelson that was still very green at that part of his career, even more so than Bernard?

I would just like a clarification. Wouldn't the same standard hold for Sanchez for beating guys like Nelson who was still pretty much green? And Nelson wasn't even ranked. The same argument you used that Hopkins was not a great victory for Jones (even though he was).

[sigh]

I am as guilty as anyone of giving Sanchez the benefit of the doubt on many things, including Azumah, because, well, he died on a midnight pussy run at 23! So a lot of us, me included, look at him and say look at the names around him when he died available for fights. Rematches with Azumah, Bazooka and LaPorte, Pedroza, Lockridge and up at 130 Camacho, Chacon, Navarette and Boza Edwards. So I illogically and unfairly say "well he would have beaten at least SOME of those guys" so rewarding him for Azumah is perhaps just.

Now to be clear on the Roy-BHOP debate. What was at issue in THAT discussion was NOT whether it was a great win. In hindsight it is Jones second most important. The issue was could one reasonably call Jones 160 champion based on that fight. My answer remains NO! One doesn't become a legit champ by beating the #9 ranked guy.

I once did an alternate career for Sanchez had he lived? And interestingly I had his first defeat (going forward) being in a rematch with Azumah two years after they'd first fought.

Is that enough of an answer?

Cool just wanted a clarification bro. I'm not trying to bust your chops like Mafiajoey and hornyfinger. lol

BTW, Sanchez died on a midnight pussy run?

[marbleheadmaui]

Marblehead, that was a great breakdown of the Zarate-Martinez fight. And I apreciate the nudge in the right direction with Olivares. I might have to dump poor Miguel Canto from the top 5. Mexico is TOUGH. It has a cross-section of all the different pillars of greatness upon which fighters can be deemed great: fast and furious reigns of destruction, longer reigns where champs face less-demanding comp (with a few nuggets sprinkled in as well) while building great records, young greats dying young, fighters whose stars shine brighter than their resumes might, etc.

It's a challenge. And a top 5 is a one way of leaving Barrera, Morales, and Marquez off the list. As history shakes it all out, it's gonna be hard ranking those guys accordingly. I can seemingly make a case for each guy. A top 10 would be brutal. Thank you for insight.

As you rightly note, criteria is everything in trying to figure these things out. For me? Extended title reigns (and I mean REAL title reigns, not some Orlando Canizales defending a strap 15+ times against largely unranked guys) are very powerful. Canto's 15 or so defenses as THE MAN at 112 is very powerful. though only perhaps 10 of those were high quality defenses.

You know who falls out for me [gritting teeth]? The guy who, had he lived might have ended up the concensus number one, Chava Sanchez. Yes he beat HOFers on four occasions as well as Castillo and LaPorte and Castanon. He is the finest feather I have seen in my lifetime in terms of who I think would win a round robin of the guys I've seen. But he just died too young to have the overall body of work of the other guys.

You, of course raise the central point with regard to Mexico. I could make credible cases for JCC, Olivares, Canto, Sanchez, Lopez, Zarate, Sadlivar, Morales, MAB, both Marquez brothers, Kid Azteca, Baby Arizmendi, Chuiquita Gonzales and maybe even Pipino Cuevas and Daniel Zaragoza being in the top ten. That's 16 guys! You pick the criteria and I'll tell you who the top ten are. Trying to get to five? Impossible!

Since you just mentioned Sanchez. I would like to point this out. I remember in the other thread where you said Roy Jones beating Hopkins was not impressive at all, whereas everyone has given Sanchez and I think maybe you would too although you haven't stated for beating hall of famers like let's say Azumah Nelson that was still very green at that part of his career, even more so than Bernard?

I would just like a clarification. Wouldn't the same standard hold for Sanchez for beating guys like Nelson who was still pretty much green? And Nelson wasn't even ranked. The same argument you used that Hopkins was not a great victory for Jones (even though he was).

[sigh]

I am as guilty as anyone of giving Sanchez the benefit of the doubt on many things, including Azumah, because, well, he died on a midnight pussy run at 23! So a lot of us, me included, look at him and say look at the names around him when he died available for fights. Rematches with Azumah, Bazooka and LaPorte, Pedroza, Lockridge and up at 130 Camacho, Chacon, Navarette and Boza Edwards. So I illogically and unfairly say "well he would have beaten at least SOME of those guys" so rewarding him for Azumah is perhaps just.

Now to be clear on the Roy-BHOP debate. What was at issue in THAT discussion was NOT whether it was a great win. In hindsight it is Jones second most important. The issue was could one reasonably call Jones 160 champion based on that fight. My answer remains NO! One doesn't become a legit champ by beating the #9 ranked guy.

I once did an alternate career for Sanchez had he lived? And interestingly I had his first defeat (going forward) being in a rematch with Azumah two years after they'd first fought.

Is that enough of an answer?

Cool just wanted a clarification bro. I'm not trying to bust your chops like Mafiajoey and hornyfinger. lol

BTW, Sanchez died on a midnight pussy run?

First off I enjoy our conversations immensely, so don't ever be shy about calling me out if you see a hole in a position I take. It is one of the ways I learn.

As far as Sanchez's death, I heard the pussy run story perhaps 20 years ago at Gleason's. I have no idea if it really is true...but it would explain things wouldn't it?