Calzaghe's win over B-Hop looks better all the time.......

[Fenster]

Yep thats gotta be his best win, out of the 3-4 good fighters he's faced in 46 fights.

You're right Calzaghe should have played it like B-Hop, beat up blownup Welterweights to make a name for himself early in his career.

You can argue who won the fight, but that whiteboy didn't make it easy for B-Hop. THis whole B-Hop won 4 or 5 more rounds is ridiculous.

and Calzaghe made his name beating up on has beens (Jones and Eubank) pretenders (Sheika, Bika and Manfredo Jr), or given gift decisions (Hopkins and Reid), his only stand out non controversial wins that deserve any real praise are his wins against Kessler and Lacey

as always it works both ways

Yes it goes both ways homey. The same people shitting on JC, his resume, and fighting ability, mysteriously excuse Hopkins for everything else.

Here is one major difference. BHOP really did wreck the middles from 1994-2004 didn't he? Was there any obvious guy he didn't face? With JC at 168 the story just isn't the same.

Here is another major difference. Hopkins didn't leave America for one single fight during that period. Between 1994 and 2004 he fought 18 opponents. 16 were American based. 1 was Canadian. So the only guy travelling from outside North America was - Hakkar. An average French alphabet ranked no.1 contender.

Calzaghe lived in Britain.
Ottke lived in Germany.
Liles/Nunn/Echols lived in America (these are pretty poor choices really).

It's blatantly obvious that matching fighters from different countries is far more problematic than when everyone is operating in the same place. Especially when these fighters are posing as "world" champion with their different pieces of alphabet.

It's fine to say no excuses these guys should have met. But it's clearly not that simple.

[marbleheadmaui]

Yep thats gotta be his best win, out of the 3-4 good fighters he's faced in 46 fights.

You're right Calzaghe should have played it like B-Hop, beat up blownup Welterweights to make a name for himself early in his career.

You can argue who won the fight, but that whiteboy didn't make it easy for B-Hop. THis whole B-Hop won 4 or 5 more rounds is ridiculous.

and Calzaghe made his name beating up on has beens (Jones and Eubank) pretenders (Sheika, Bika and Manfredo Jr), or given gift decisions (Hopkins and Reid), his only stand out non controversial wins that deserve any real praise are his wins against Kessler and Lacey

as always it works both ways

Yes it goes both ways homey. The same people shitting on JC, his resume, and fighting ability, mysteriously excuse Hopkins for everything else.

Here is one major difference. BHOP really did wreck the middles from 1994-2004 didn't he? Was there any obvious guy he didn't face? With JC at 168 the story just isn't the same.

Here is another major difference. Hopkins didn't leave America for one single fight during that period. Between 1994 and 2004 he fought 18 opponents. 16 were American based. 1 was Canadian. So the only guy travelling from outside North America was - Hakkar. An average French alphabet ranked no.1 contender.

Calzaghe lived in Britain.
Ottke lived in Germany.
Liles/Nunn/Echols lived in America (these are pretty poor choices really).

It's blatantly obvious that matching fighters from different countries is far more problematic than when everyone is operating in the same place. Especially when these fighters are posing as "world" champion with their different pieces of alphabet.

It's fine to say no excuses these guys should have met. But it's clearly not that simple.

Actually it is. One gets credit for the fights one actually has and none for the ones one doesn't. Everything else is excuses or rationalizations.

[roberto duran legend]

Calzaghe beat Hopkins did he not enough said .

[marbleheadmaui]

Calzaghe beat Hopkins did he not enough said .

Yup. And Kirkland Laing beat Roberto Duran. Your point?

[roberto duran legend]

Yeah i agree , the super six has had its problems but at least we can see the best fighting the best its a great concept .

[roberto duran legend]

Kirkland Laing is not in the same league .

[generalbulldog]

Speaking of Kirkland, he hasn't been around since he got into an argument with Lyle here. That fucker was funny.

[marbleheadmaui]

Kirkland Laing is not in the same league .

Again I am asking, what is your point? Because saying head to head results, even among fighters in the same league, determines some sort of ranking just doesn't wash in boxing. Styles make fights.

Marciano beat Ezzard twice, anyone rank Marciano higher?

[roberto duran legend]

My point is that Joe Calzaghe beat everyone he fought , ok some were mediocre , some good and some great , but he did win them all , not saying he is a legend , and i understand there is a much deeper pool of talent now than say 2 or 3 years ago , i would still take Calzaghe to beat ward IMO , he struggled against lesser opposition but always had his A game against the best he fought .

[Fenster]

Yep thats gotta be his best win, out of the 3-4 good fighters he's faced in 46 fights.

You're right Calzaghe should have played it like B-Hop, beat up blownup Welterweights to make a name for himself early in his career.

You can argue who won the fight, but that whiteboy didn't make it easy for B-Hop. THis whole B-Hop won 4 or 5 more rounds is ridiculous.

and Calzaghe made his name beating up on has beens (Jones and Eubank) pretenders (Sheika, Bika and Manfredo Jr), or given gift decisions (Hopkins and Reid), his only stand out non controversial wins that deserve any real praise are his wins against Kessler and Lacey

as always it works both ways

Yes it goes both ways homey. The same people shitting on JC, his resume, and fighting ability, mysteriously excuse Hopkins for everything else.

Here is one major difference. BHOP really did wreck the middles from 1994-2004 didn't he? Was there any obvious guy he didn't face? With JC at 168 the story just isn't the same.

Here is another major difference. Hopkins didn't leave America for one single fight during that period. Between 1994 and 2004 he fought 18 opponents. 16 were American based. 1 was Canadian. So the only guy travelling from outside North America was - Hakkar. An average French alphabet ranked no.1 contender.

Calzaghe lived in Britain.
Ottke lived in Germany.
Liles/Nunn/Echols lived in America (these are pretty poor choices really).

It's blatantly obvious that matching fighters from different countries is far more problematic than when everyone is operating in the same place. Especially when these fighters are posing as "world" champion with their different pieces of alphabet.

It's fine to say no excuses these guys should have met. But it's clearly not that simple.

Actually it is. One gets credit for the fights one actually has and none for the ones one doesn't. Everything else is excuses or rationalizations.

That's fine. Only judge fighters by whom they have fought.

But it's unfair to penalise fighters for failing to meet guys that didn't want to fight.

Sven Ottke's trainer, Ulli Wegner, has gone on record to state that Ottke never wanted anything to do with Calzaghe. There were numerous attempts to make this fight. So Calzaghe deserves to be forever downplayed because a man REFUSED to fight him?

[marbleheadmaui]

Yep thats gotta be his best win, out of the 3-4 good fighters he's faced in 46 fights.

You're right Calzaghe should have played it like B-Hop, beat up blownup Welterweights to make a name for himself early in his career.

You can argue who won the fight, but that whiteboy didn't make it easy for B-Hop. THis whole B-Hop won 4 or 5 more rounds is ridiculous.

and Calzaghe made his name beating up on has beens (Jones and Eubank) pretenders (Sheika, Bika and Manfredo Jr), or given gift decisions (Hopkins and Reid), his only stand out non controversial wins that deserve any real praise are his wins against Kessler and Lacey

as always it works both ways

Yes it goes both ways homey. The same people shitting on JC, his resume, and fighting ability, mysteriously excuse Hopkins for everything else.

Here is one major difference. BHOP really did wreck the middles from 1994-2004 didn't he? Was there any obvious guy he didn't face? With JC at 168 the story just isn't the same.

Here is another major difference. Hopkins didn't leave America for one single fight during that period. Between 1994 and 2004 he fought 18 opponents. 16 were American based. 1 was Canadian. So the only guy travelling from outside North America was - Hakkar. An average French alphabet ranked no.1 contender.

Calzaghe lived in Britain.
Ottke lived in Germany.
Liles/Nunn/Echols lived in America (these are pretty poor choices really).

It's blatantly obvious that matching fighters from different countries is far more problematic than when everyone is operating in the same place. Especially when these fighters are posing as "world" champion with their different pieces of alphabet.

It's fine to say no excuses these guys should have met. But it's clearly not that simple.

Actually it is. One gets credit for the fights one actually has and none for the ones one doesn't. Everything else is excuses or rationalizations.

That's fine. Only judge fighters by whom they have fought.

But it's unfair to penalise fighters for failing to meet guys that didn't want to fight.

Sven Ottke's trainer, Ulli Wegner, has gone on record to state that Ottke never wanted anything to do with Calzaghe. There were numerous attempts to make this fight. So Calzaghe deserves to be forever downplayed because a man REFUSED to fight him?

Sure. His resume with a win over Ottke would have been better, right? His resume with a win over Liles? better still. Echols? better yet.

If it is ONE guy? Doesn't matter much as a single win can't usually change a lot in terms of resume. It is when, off the top of one's head one can come up with 5-6 that one starts to say hmmmmm.

Let's not forget, I'm not arguing Calzaghe wasn't a great fighter. The issue is how great? That's pretty rarified air and comp matters a great deal doesn't it?

[Fenster]

Yep thats gotta be his best win, out of the 3-4 good fighters he's faced in 46 fights.

You're right Calzaghe should have played it like B-Hop, beat up blownup Welterweights to make a name for himself early in his career.

You can argue who won the fight, but that whiteboy didn't make it easy for B-Hop. THis whole B-Hop won 4 or 5 more rounds is ridiculous.

and Calzaghe made his name beating up on has beens (Jones and Eubank) pretenders (Sheika, Bika and Manfredo Jr), or given gift decisions (Hopkins and Reid), his only stand out non controversial wins that deserve any real praise are his wins against Kessler and Lacey

as always it works both ways

Yes it goes both ways homey. The same people shitting on JC, his resume, and fighting ability, mysteriously excuse Hopkins for everything else.

Here is one major difference. BHOP really did wreck the middles from 1994-2004 didn't he? Was there any obvious guy he didn't face? With JC at 168 the story just isn't the same.

Here is another major difference. Hopkins didn't leave America for one single fight during that period. Between 1994 and 2004 he fought 18 opponents. 16 were American based. 1 was Canadian. So the only guy travelling from outside North America was - Hakkar. An average French alphabet ranked no.1 contender.

Calzaghe lived in Britain.
Ottke lived in Germany.
Liles/Nunn/Echols lived in America (these are pretty poor choices really).

It's blatantly obvious that matching fighters from different countries is far more problematic than when everyone is operating in the same place. Especially when these fighters are posing as "world" champion with their different pieces of alphabet.

It's fine to say no excuses these guys should have met. But it's clearly not that simple.

Actually it is. One gets credit for the fights one actually has and none for the ones one doesn't. Everything else is excuses or rationalizations.

That's fine. Only judge fighters by whom they have fought.

But it's unfair to penalise fighters for failing to meet guys that didn't want to fight.

Sven Ottke's trainer, Ulli Wegner, has gone on record to state that Ottke never wanted anything to do with Calzaghe. There were numerous attempts to make this fight. So Calzaghe deserves to be forever downplayed because a man REFUSED to fight him?

Sure. His resume with a win over Ottke would have been better, right? His resume with a win over Liles? better still. Echols? better yet.

If it is ONE guy? Doesn't matter much as a single win can't usually change a lot in terms of resume. It is when, off the top of one's head one can come up with 5-6 that one starts to say hmmmmm.

Let's not forget, I'm not arguing Calzaghe wasn't a great fighter. The issue is how great? That's pretty rarified air and comp matters a great deal doesn't it?

Sure. But you can do that with virtually any fighter in history. There's always someone else they should have fought.

Does that mean you should ignore valid reasons for fights not happening? Bit harsh...

However, I do agree Calzaghe's record would look far better with a win over Ottke

[marbleheadmaui]

Yep thats gotta be his best win, out of the 3-4 good fighters he's faced in 46 fights.

You're right Calzaghe should have played it like B-Hop, beat up blownup Welterweights to make a name for himself early in his career.

You can argue who won the fight, but that whiteboy didn't make it easy for B-Hop. THis whole B-Hop won 4 or 5 more rounds is ridiculous.

and Calzaghe made his name beating up on has beens (Jones and Eubank) pretenders (Sheika, Bika and Manfredo Jr), or given gift decisions (Hopkins and Reid), his only stand out non controversial wins that deserve any real praise are his wins against Kessler and Lacey

as always it works both ways

Yes it goes both ways homey. The same people shitting on JC, his resume, and fighting ability, mysteriously excuse Hopkins for everything else.

Here is one major difference. BHOP really did wreck the middles from 1994-2004 didn't he? Was there any obvious guy he didn't face? With JC at 168 the story just isn't the same.

Here is another major difference. Hopkins didn't leave America for one single fight during that period. Between 1994 and 2004 he fought 18 opponents. 16 were American based. 1 was Canadian. So the only guy travelling from outside North America was - Hakkar. An average French alphabet ranked no.1 contender.

Calzaghe lived in Britain.
Ottke lived in Germany.
Liles/Nunn/Echols lived in America (these are pretty poor choices really).

It's blatantly obvious that matching fighters from different countries is far more problematic than when everyone is operating in the same place. Especially when these fighters are posing as "world" champion with their different pieces of alphabet.

It's fine to say no excuses these guys should have met. But it's clearly not that simple.

Actually it is. One gets credit for the fights one actually has and none for the ones one doesn't. Everything else is excuses or rationalizations.

That's fine. Only judge fighters by whom they have fought.

But it's unfair to penalise fighters for failing to meet guys that didn't want to fight.

Sven Ottke's trainer, Ulli Wegner, has gone on record to state that Ottke never wanted anything to do with Calzaghe. There were numerous attempts to make this fight. So Calzaghe deserves to be forever downplayed because a man REFUSED to fight him?

Sure. His resume with a win over Ottke would have been better, right? His resume with a win over Liles? better still. Echols? better yet.

If it is ONE guy? Doesn't matter much as a single win can't usually change a lot in terms of resume. It is when, off the top of one's head one can come up with 5-6 that one starts to say hmmmmm.

Let's not forget, I'm not arguing Calzaghe wasn't a great fighter. The issue is how great? That's pretty rarified air and comp matters a great deal doesn't it?

Sure. But you can do that with virtually any fighter in history. There's always someone else they should have fought.

Does that mean you should ignore valid reasons for fights not happening? Bit harsh...

However, I do agree Calzaghe's record would look far better with a win over Ottke

I am harsh from the safety of my keyboard!