Roy Jones, where did it all go wrong?

[ICB]

RJJ was not by any means an "ATG" He couldn't fight much and he benefited from an incredibly weak era. In the 1930s/40s and so on he is, at best, an 8 round fighter,.

Really ?

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Going back to light heavy to fight Tarver from heavy beating Ruiz but that is easy with hindsight.

Yeah its too bad he had to be the example for the future generations. No one had ever gone up that far only to go back down. Especially not in the same year. Ironically Tarver had his belt taken from him by Bhop, because he tried the same thing except he did it for a film and Roy did it to win a belt.

Tarver called Roy's weight loss an excuse, funny how it worked out for him.

I do not think tarver used it as an excuse, I do know B Hop called him a dead man walking.

That's the thing that fucking pisses me off. (sorry, language, I know...)
Anyone who tries to criticize Hopkins win over Tarver will always use this mythical weight drain angle but surely that angle is null and void if the man himself hadn't used his weight as an excuse?

I mean Tarver couldn't get off simply because Hopkins made a play every time Tarver was set to do something.

Did Tarver look weight drained. Did he really have a shit load of muscle to loose? No. It's a load of bs.

[Mars_ax]

No offense to his fans or anyone else on this forum, but I don't get all the interest in, and multiple daily threads about Roy Jones Jr.. He hasn't been worth a shit for the last 7 or 8 years, and during that time, his record in his last 12 fights, has been a dismal 5 wins and 7 losses, 4 by KO. So what gives? Pardon me if this shit bores the fuck outta me.

[JonesJrMayweather]

Going back to light heavy to fight Tarver from heavy beating Ruiz but that is easy with hindsight.

Yeah its too bad he had to be the example for the future generations. No one had ever gone up that far only to go back down. Especially not in the same year. Ironically Tarver had his belt taken from him by Bhop, because he tried the same thing except he did it for a film and Roy did it to win a belt.

Tarver called Roy's weight loss an excuse, funny how it worked out for him.

I do not think tarver used it as an excuse, I do know B Hop called him a dead man walking.

That's the thing that fucking pisses me off. (sorry, language, I know...)
Anyone who tries to criticize Hopkins win over Tarver will always use this mythical weight drain angle but surely that angle is null and void if the man himself hadn't used his weight as an excuse?

I mean Tarver couldn't get off simply because Hopkins made a play every time Tarver was set to do something.

Did Tarver look weight drained. Did he really have a shit load of muscle to loose? No. It's a load of bs.

did you see tarver in that fight? he had bitch tits. Did you see him in the balboa movie, he looked like a heavyweight. Also Tarver after that fight when being asked by merchant regarding the weight said "No, I don't want to say that. I just don't know why I couldn't get anything going"

even NAZ said "he fooled the public but he didn't fool us" when speaking about his weight.

[marbleheadmaui]

RJJ was not by any means an "ATG" He couldn't fight much and he benefited from an incredibly weak era. In the 1930s/40s and so on he is, at best, an 8 round fighter,.

If you took the say 1997 Roy and just dumped him into the late 1970's or the 1940's he'd have gotten whacked around. His technical flaws would have been red meat for those guys.

But think about this. Roy Jones being born in 1915 and taking up the sport as a ten year old. He gets trained at Stillman's by a guy like Arcel or Goldman or Jack Blackburn so he is technically sound, gets tempered the way fighters did then and still retains his otherworldly athleticism?

WOW!

[Master]

RJJ was not by any means an "ATG" He couldn't fight much and he benefited from an incredibly weak era. In the 1930s/40s and so on he is, at best, an 8 round fighter,.

If you took the say 1997 Roy and just dumped him into the late 1970's or the 1940's he'd have gotten whacked around. His technical flaws would have been red meat for those guys.

But think about this. Roy Jones being born in 1915 and taking up the sport as a ten year old. He gets trained at Stillman's by a guy like Arcel or Goldman or Jack Blackburn so he is technically sound, gets tempered the way fighters did then and still retains his otherworldly athleticism?

WOW!

Disagree about Roy getting beaten in the 70's and 40's he could live in any era and be a good if not great fighter. You could say Ali was technically poor but he still beat the best, Roy was the same at his peak.

[marbleheadmaui]

RJJ was not by any means an "ATG" He couldn't fight much and he benefited from an incredibly weak era. In the 1930s/40s and so on he is, at best, an 8 round fighter,.

If you took the say 1997 Roy and just dumped him into the late 1970's or the 1940's he'd have gotten whacked around. His technical flaws would have been red meat for those guys.

But think about this. Roy Jones being born in 1915 and taking up the sport as a ten year old. He gets trained at Stillman's by a guy like Arcel or Goldman or Jack Blackburn so he is technically sound, gets tempered the way fighters did then and still retains his otherworldly athleticism?

WOW!

Disagree about Roy getting beaten in the 70's and 40's he could live in any era and be a good if not great fighter. You could say Ali was technically poor but he still beat the best, Roy was the same at his peak.

The difference was Ali's technical mistakes rarely cost him a fight in the greatest era the heavies have ever known. The Jones mistakes rarely cost him a fight in a mediocre era for 175's. Now we're dropping him into a great era/s. Who knows? But what he proved clearly wasn't the same as Ali.

We watched a decent example of how craft and tenacity can overcome superior speed, power, reflexes etc this past weekend in Montreal didn't we?

[JonesJrMayweather]

technically flawed? the 70s or 40s? GTFOH

It's getting a bit absurd that everyone rides off giving passed to the old era guys simply because they were first. In fact it's basically almost unspoken that no new fighter will ever surpass the old guys. There's always some excuse to discredit the evolution of the sport.

RJJ, FLOYD, PAC, BHOP, SWEET PEA, to name a few would compete and be great in any era.

RJJ vs those old slower plodders around his division would be smacked around. Everyone makes it seem as if because he was unorthodox that he didn't know how to box. He rarely lost rounds because he maximized his abilities. Technical skills or not if they couldn't hit him it was rendered useless, ask reggie johnson about his technical skills, or virgil hill. Plus RJJ had tremendous power between 160-168 so its not like he was some flashy guy that couldn't hurt someone. Once Roy tagged anyone from any era and they witnessed first hand his speed it would instantly change their game plan.

[Master]

Peak Roy could live with Ezzard Charles, Foster and Spinks and that was not his best weight.

[marbleheadmaui]

technically flawed? the 70s or 40s? GTFOH

It's getting a bit absurd that everyone rides off giving passed to the old era guys simply because they were first. In fact it's basically almost unspoken that no new fighter will ever surpass the old guys. There's always some excuse to discredit the evolution of the sport.

RJJ, FLOYD, PAC, BHOP, SWEET PEA, to name a few would compete and be great in any era.

RJJ vs those old slower plodders around his division would be smacked around. Everyone makes it seem as if because he was unorthodox that he didn't know how to box. He rarely lost rounds because he maximized his abilities. Technical skills or not if they could hit him it was rendered useless, ask reggie johnson about his technical skills, or virgil hill. Plus RJJ had tremendous power between 160-168 so its not like he was some flashy guy that could hurt someone. Once Roy tagged anyone from any era and they witnessed first hand his speed it would instantly change their game plan.

You're missing an essential point. Several actually. First calling Ezzard, Archie, Billy Fox, Jack Chase, Marvin Johnson, Mike Spinks, Victor Galindez etc slow plodders is really, really wrong. Second, speed, power etc can be nullified by superior craft. Let me make an analogy. Every year coming out of college there are a series of 6'2, 200 pound wide outs who can run 4.4 forties and jump out of the stadium. And every year a bunch crash and burn in camp. Why? Because they don't have the technique to a) even get off the line of scrimmage against a good corner b) recognize what defense is being played and/or c) how to disuise what pattern they are running. Athleticism without craft doesn't work all that well. Jerry Rice wasn't the biggest, or fastest or strongest but he knew how to play.

I find it fascinating that guys as diverse as Teddy Atlas, Freddie Roach, Dan Cuoco, Rollie Hackmer and Skeeter McClure think guys like Moore, Charles, Billy Conn, Harold Johnson would handle Roy without too much trouble.

[marbleheadmaui]

Peak Roy could live with Ezzard Charles, Foster and Spinks and that was not his best weight.

Well since 168 didn't exist? We're stuck with things. Foster and Mike Spinks would have annihilated Roy at some point in 12 or 15 rounds. Roy would have won a lot of rounds right up until he was looking up at the lights wondering what the hell happened.

A pre-Sam Baroudi Ezzard would just have kicked his ass

That's if we just dropped a 1997 Roy in. Like I said, had he been taught and tempered the way those guys were? WOW!

[Mr140]

Well pretty much he stayed in the game to long just like Evander Holyfeild did.

[Master]

Peak Roy could live with Ezzard Charles, Foster and Spinks and that was not his best weight.

Well since 168 didn't exist? We're stuck with things. Foster and Mike Spinks would have annihilated Roy at some point in 12 or 15 rounds. Roy would have won a lot of rounds right up until he was looking up at the lights wondering what the hell happened.

A pre-Sam Baroudi Ezzard would just have kicked his ass

That's if we just dropped a 1997 Roy in. Like I said, had he been taught and tempered the way those guys were? WOW!

So you agree he could live with them.

[marbleheadmaui]

Peak Roy could live with Ezzard Charles, Foster and Spinks and that was not his best weight.

Well since 168 didn't exist? We're stuck with things. Foster and Mike Spinks would have annihilated Roy at some point in 12 or 15 rounds. Roy would have won a lot of rounds right up until he was looking up at the lights wondering what the hell happened.

A pre-Sam Baroudi Ezzard would just have kicked his ass

That's if we just dropped a 1997 Roy in. Like I said, had he been taught and tempered the way those guys were? WOW!

So you agree he could live with them.

As long as he took out the trash, did the laundry and once a week paid for dinner!

I think Jones was, after Ray Robinson, the most impressive combination of natural speed and power I've ever seen live or on film. I can only imagine how that would have translated had he been forced to be technically correct as those eras would have required. He may well have been the most incredible fighter anyone has ever seen.

[marbleheadmaui]

Let me clarify one thing in response to the initial post.

Nothing went wrong with Jones career. Two wins over ATG's, a single loss before age 35, over fifty wins, beating ranked guys across five divisions and three of the original divisions, in his heyday the most prominent fighter in the world?

THAT is special! Then at 35 Father Time checked the calendar and said It's time Roy!

I think the right way to think about Jones is that his career effectively ended the night Tarver drilled him. The guys since then just happens to share a name.