Roy Jones, where did it all go wrong?

[JonesJrMayweather]

It's also funny that some talk about BHOP's technical skills, yet roy clearly out pointed him. But I guess BHOP was too green, even though he had more fights than roy, and he was ranked #1 MW and Roy #2. Roy is discredited as if he was prime and BHOP wasn't. The best version of Roy would have beaten the best version bhop 9 out 10 times.

BHOP was ranked #9 at the time.

You can skip to 29 seconds....

Um those are th IBF rankings and therefore meaningless. Ring had BHOP ninth.

Okay, fine let's do it your way, since only the RING rankings matter. Ring had Roy at the top, bhop at 8. Roy get's discredited on his resume even though he beat 5 out of 9 of them. ranked by ring. Then as a super middleweight he beat most of the RING RANKED opponents, and LHW, he beat most them too. But his resume sucks? BHOP is ATG and a technical genius, although by comparison his resume is weaker than RJJ's.... go figure.

[marbleheadmaui]

It's also funny that some talk about BHOP's technical skills, yet roy clearly out pointed him. But I guess BHOP was too green, even though he had more fights than roy, and he was ranked #1 MW and Roy #2. Roy is discredited as if he was prime and BHOP wasn't. The best version of Roy would have beaten the best version bhop 9 out 10 times.

BHOP was ranked #9 at the time.

You can skip to 29 seconds....

Um those are th IBF rankings and therefore meaningless. Ring had BHOP ninth.

Okay, fine let's do it your way, since only the RING rankings matter. Ring had Roy at the top, bhop at 8. Roy get's discredited on his resume even though he beat 5 out of 9 of them. ranked by ring. Then as a super middleweight he beat most of the RING RANKED opponents, and LHW, he beat most them too. But his resume sucks? BHOP is ATG and a technical genius, although by comparison his resume is weaker than RJJ's.... go figure.

Why is BHOP the resume standard again? I think BHOP belongs very close to Dick Tiger, both 160 and 175 champs, both beat 20 or so ranked guys and both beat several HOFers. According to where Ring ranks Tiger that puts BHOP somewhere in the 30's since 1922 and by implication probably around 40-50 or so all-time. According to Bert Sugar that puts BHOP around 60ish all-time.

Now I've got Tiger a little better than that. Probably in the 40's somewhere.

Now checking a few things I've got Roy beating 2 HOFers, a one division champ (apples to apples with how I count BHOP's and Tigers) and by my quick count, beat 16 ranked guys. Enormously impressive. But is that really measurably better than BHOP's? Looks pretty close to me.

[JonesJrMayweather]

It's also funny that some talk about BHOP's technical skills, yet roy clearly out pointed him. But I guess BHOP was too green, even though he had more fights than roy, and he was ranked #1 MW and Roy #2. Roy is discredited as if he was prime and BHOP wasn't. The best version of Roy would have beaten the best version bhop 9 out 10 times.

BHOP was ranked #9 at the time.

You can skip to 29 seconds....

Um those are th IBF rankings and therefore meaningless. Ring had BHOP ninth.

Okay, fine let's do it your way, since only the RING rankings matter. Ring had Roy at the top, bhop at 8. Roy get's discredited on his resume even though he beat 5 out of 9 of them. ranked by ring. Then as a super middleweight he beat most of the RING RANKED opponents, and LHW, he beat most them too. But his resume sucks? BHOP is ATG and a technical genius, although by comparison his resume is weaker than RJJ's.... go figure.

Why is BHOP the resume standard again? I think BHOP belongs very close to Dick Tiger, both 160 and 175 champs, both beat 20 or so ranked guys and both beat several HOFers. According to where Ring ranks Tiger that puts BHOP somewhere in the 30's since 1922 and by implication probably around 40-50 or so all-time. According to Bert Sugar that puts BHOP around 60ish all-time.

Now I've got Tiger a little better than that. Probably in the 40's somewhere.

Now checking a few things I've got Roy beating 2 HOFers, a one division champ (apples to apples with how I count BHOP's and Tigers) and by my quick count, beat 16 ranked guys. Enormously impressive. But is that really measurably better than BHOP's? Looks pretty close to me.

Bhop beat blown up WW HOFers, if you count them, then RJJ beat at least 4 HOFers. BHOP, TONEY, MCCallum,PAZ, Tito,

[marbleheadmaui]

It's also funny that some talk about BHOP's technical skills, yet roy clearly out pointed him. But I guess BHOP was too green, even though he had more fights than roy, and he was ranked #1 MW and Roy #2. Roy is discredited as if he was prime and BHOP wasn't. The best version of Roy would have beaten the best version bhop 9 out 10 times.

BHOP was ranked #9 at the time.

You can skip to 29 seconds....

Um those are th IBF rankings and therefore meaningless. Ring had BHOP ninth.

Okay, fine let's do it your way, since only the RING rankings matter. Ring had Roy at the top, bhop at 8. Roy get's discredited on his resume even though he beat 5 out of 9 of them. ranked by ring. Then as a super middleweight he beat most of the RING RANKED opponents, and LHW, he beat most them too. But his resume sucks? BHOP is ATG and a technical genius, although by comparison his resume is weaker than RJJ's.... go figure.

Why is BHOP the resume standard again? I think BHOP belongs very close to Dick Tiger, both 160 and 175 champs, both beat 20 or so ranked guys and both beat several HOFers. According to where Ring ranks Tiger that puts BHOP somewhere in the 30's since 1922 and by implication probably around 40-50 or so all-time. According to Bert Sugar that puts BHOP around 60ish all-time.

Now I've got Tiger a little better than that. Probably in the 40's somewhere.

Now checking a few things I've got Roy beating 2 HOFers, a one division champ (apples to apples with how I count BHOP's and Tigers) and by my quick count, beat 16 ranked guys. Enormously impressive. But is that really measurably better than BHOP's? Looks pretty close to me.

Bhop beat blown up WW HOFers, if you count them, then RJJ beat at least 4 HOFers. BHOP, TONEY, MCCallum,PAZ, Tito,

I try to count everyone. That's six for Tiger, four for Roy (thanks!) and three for BHOP.

I find it REALLY amusing that in one post you hammer Bernard for fighting blown up welters and then give Roy credit for beating Tito ten pounds heavier yet and in his first fight in three years

Again, don't these resumes (all three) look pretty close to you?

[JonesJrMayweather]

It's also funny that some talk about BHOP's technical skills, yet roy clearly out pointed him. But I guess BHOP was too green, even though he had more fights than roy, and he was ranked #1 MW and Roy #2. Roy is discredited as if he was prime and BHOP wasn't. The best version of Roy would have beaten the best version bhop 9 out 10 times.

BHOP was ranked #9 at the time.

You can skip to 29 seconds....

Um those are th IBF rankings and therefore meaningless. Ring had BHOP ninth.

Okay, fine let's do it your way, since only the RING rankings matter. Ring had Roy at the top, bhop at 8. Roy get's discredited on his resume even though he beat 5 out of 9 of them. ranked by ring. Then as a super middleweight he beat most of the RING RANKED opponents, and LHW, he beat most them too. But his resume sucks? BHOP is ATG and a technical genius, although by comparison his resume is weaker than RJJ's.... go figure.

Why is BHOP the resume standard again? I think BHOP belongs very close to Dick Tiger, both 160 and 175 champs, both beat 20 or so ranked guys and both beat several HOFers. According to where Ring ranks Tiger that puts BHOP somewhere in the 30's since 1922 and by implication probably around 40-50 or so all-time. According to Bert Sugar that puts BHOP around 60ish all-time.

Now I've got Tiger a little better than that. Probably in the 40's somewhere.

Now checking a few things I've got Roy beating 2 HOFers, a one division champ (apples to apples with how I count BHOP's and Tigers) and by my quick count, beat 16 ranked guys. Enormously impressive. But is that really measurably better than BHOP's? Looks pretty close to me.

Bhop beat blown up WW HOFers, if you count them, then RJJ beat at least 4 HOFers. BHOP, TONEY, MCCallum,PAZ, Tito,

I try to count everyone. That's six for Tiger, four for Roy (thanks!) and three for BHOP.

I find it REALLY amusing that in one post you hammer Bernard for fighting blown up welters and then give Roy credit for beating Tito ten pounds heavier yet and in his first fight in three years

Again, don't these resumes (all three) look pretty close to you?

Notice i said "IF YOU COUNT THEM", I normally just count BHOP and TONEY for Jones. But since bhop gets credit for beating obviously faded out shape Oscar and blown up tito, then roy gets credit too. Also especially considering that Jones' past it losses are being held against him.

[marbleheadmaui]

It's also funny that some talk about BHOP's technical skills, yet roy clearly out pointed him. But I guess BHOP was too green, even though he had more fights than roy, and he was ranked #1 MW and Roy #2. Roy is discredited as if he was prime and BHOP wasn't. The best version of Roy would have beaten the best version bhop 9 out 10 times.

BHOP was ranked #9 at the time.

You can skip to 29 seconds....

Um those are th IBF rankings and therefore meaningless. Ring had BHOP ninth.

Okay, fine let's do it your way, since only the RING rankings matter. Ring had Roy at the top, bhop at 8. Roy get's discredited on his resume even though he beat 5 out of 9 of them. ranked by ring. Then as a super middleweight he beat most of the RING RANKED opponents, and LHW, he beat most them too. But his resume sucks? BHOP is ATG and a technical genius, although by comparison his resume is weaker than RJJ's.... go figure.

Why is BHOP the resume standard again? I think BHOP belongs very close to Dick Tiger, both 160 and 175 champs, both beat 20 or so ranked guys and both beat several HOFers. According to where Ring ranks Tiger that puts BHOP somewhere in the 30's since 1922 and by implication probably around 40-50 or so all-time. According to Bert Sugar that puts BHOP around 60ish all-time.

Now I've got Tiger a little better than that. Probably in the 40's somewhere.

Now checking a few things I've got Roy beating 2 HOFers, a one division champ (apples to apples with how I count BHOP's and Tigers) and by my quick count, beat 16 ranked guys. Enormously impressive. But is that really measurably better than BHOP's? Looks pretty close to me.

Bhop beat blown up WW HOFers, if you count them, then RJJ beat at least 4 HOFers. BHOP, TONEY, MCCallum,PAZ, Tito,

I try to count everyone. That's six for Tiger, four for Roy (thanks!) and three for BHOP.

I find it REALLY amusing that in one post you hammer Bernard for fighting blown up welters and then give Roy credit for beating Tito ten pounds heavier yet and in his first fight in three years

Again, don't these resumes (all three) look pretty close to you?

Notice i said "IF YOU COUNT THEM", I normally just count BHOP and TONEY for Jones. But since bhop gets credit for beating obviously faded out shape Oscar and blown up tito, then roy get's credit too.

LOL, thought I'd sneak that past you

But back to the question I asked. Don't those resumes seem really similar to you?

[Spicoli]

Yes clearly Tito and Paz (hof?) were not blown up. Clearly

[marbleheadmaui]

Yes clearly Tito and Paz (hof?) were not blown up. Clearly

Poor Paz. His nose was bleeding in the locker room when he was warming up for that fight!

[JonesJrMayweather]

Yes clearly Tito and Paz (hof?) were not blown up. Clearly

I said "IF".... I normally don't count them.

[JonesJrMayweather]

It's also funny that some talk about BHOP's technical skills, yet roy clearly out pointed him. But I guess BHOP was too green, even though he had more fights than roy, and he was ranked #1 MW and Roy #2. Roy is discredited as if he was prime and BHOP wasn't. The best version of Roy would have beaten the best version bhop 9 out 10 times.

BHOP was ranked #9 at the time.

You can skip to 29 seconds....

Um those are th IBF rankings and therefore meaningless. Ring had BHOP ninth.

Okay, fine let's do it your way, since only the RING rankings matter. Ring had Roy at the top, bhop at 8. Roy get's discredited on his resume even though he beat 5 out of 9 of them. ranked by ring. Then as a super middleweight he beat most of the RING RANKED opponents, and LHW, he beat most them too. But his resume sucks? BHOP is ATG and a technical genius, although by comparison his resume is weaker than RJJ's.... go figure.

Why is BHOP the resume standard again? I think BHOP belongs very close to Dick Tiger, both 160 and 175 champs, both beat 20 or so ranked guys and both beat several HOFers. According to where Ring ranks Tiger that puts BHOP somewhere in the 30's since 1922 and by implication probably around 40-50 or so all-time. According to Bert Sugar that puts BHOP around 60ish all-time.

Now I've got Tiger a little better than that. Probably in the 40's somewhere.

Now checking a few things I've got Roy beating 2 HOFers, a one division champ (apples to apples with how I count BHOP's and Tigers) and by my quick count, beat 16 ranked guys. Enormously impressive. But is that really measurably better than BHOP's? Looks pretty close to me.

Bhop beat blown up WW HOFers, if you count them, then RJJ beat at least 4 HOFers. BHOP, TONEY, MCCallum,PAZ, Tito,

I try to count everyone. That's six for Tiger, four for Roy (thanks!) and three for BHOP.

I find it REALLY amusing that in one post you hammer Bernard for fighting blown up welters and then give Roy credit for beating Tito ten pounds heavier yet and in his first fight in three years

Again, don't these resumes (all three) look pretty close to you?

Notice i said "IF YOU COUNT THEM", I normally just count BHOP and TONEY for Jones. But since bhop gets credit for beating obviously faded out shape Oscar and blown up tito, then roy get's credit too.

LOL, thought I'd sneak that past you

But back to the question I asked. Don't those resumes seem really similar to you?

They could be similar, but I find it inconsistent that it would have bHOP ranked some 20 spots ahead of RJJ when his resume is clearly weaker.

[marbleheadmaui]

It's also funny that some talk about BHOP's technical skills, yet roy clearly out pointed him. But I guess BHOP was too green, even though he had more fights than roy, and he was ranked #1 MW and Roy #2. Roy is discredited as if he was prime and BHOP wasn't. The best version of Roy would have beaten the best version bhop 9 out 10 times.

BHOP was ranked #9 at the time.

You can skip to 29 seconds....

Um those are th IBF rankings and therefore meaningless. Ring had BHOP ninth.

Okay, fine let's do it your way, since only the RING rankings matter. Ring had Roy at the top, bhop at 8. Roy get's discredited on his resume even though he beat 5 out of 9 of them. ranked by ring. Then as a super middleweight he beat most of the RING RANKED opponents, and LHW, he beat most them too. But his resume sucks? BHOP is ATG and a technical genius, although by comparison his resume is weaker than RJJ's.... go figure.

Why is BHOP the resume standard again? I think BHOP belongs very close to Dick Tiger, both 160 and 175 champs, both beat 20 or so ranked guys and both beat several HOFers. According to where Ring ranks Tiger that puts BHOP somewhere in the 30's since 1922 and by implication probably around 40-50 or so all-time. According to Bert Sugar that puts BHOP around 60ish all-time.

Now I've got Tiger a little better than that. Probably in the 40's somewhere.

Now checking a few things I've got Roy beating 2 HOFers, a one division champ (apples to apples with how I count BHOP's and Tigers) and by my quick count, beat 16 ranked guys. Enormously impressive. But is that really measurably better than BHOP's? Looks pretty close to me.

Bhop beat blown up WW HOFers, if you count them, then RJJ beat at least 4 HOFers. BHOP, TONEY, MCCallum,PAZ, Tito,

I try to count everyone. That's six for Tiger, four for Roy (thanks!) and three for BHOP.

I find it REALLY amusing that in one post you hammer Bernard for fighting blown up welters and then give Roy credit for beating Tito ten pounds heavier yet and in his first fight in three years

Again, don't these resumes (all three) look pretty close to you?

Notice i said "IF YOU COUNT THEM", I normally just count BHOP and TONEY for Jones. But since bhop gets credit for beating obviously faded out shape Oscar and blown up tito, then roy get's credit too.

LOL, thought I'd sneak that past you

But back to the question I asked. Don't those resumes seem really similar to you?

They could be similar, but I find it inconsistent that it would have bHOP ranked some 20 spots ahead of RJJ when his resume is clearly weaker.

I don't know who "it" is that has BHOP 20 positions ahead. I also don't see how you can agree they are similar and then assert BHOP's is clearly weaker. I missed something somewhere.

Maybe I was unclear. I am arguing Tiger-BHOP-Roy all belong in the same area and then saying where Ring and Sugar and I have Dick Tiger. Ring would say Tiger is 40-50, Sugar says he's 63 IIRC and I say 40-50.

I hope that's more clear.

[Spicoli]

Yes clearly Tito and Paz (hof?) were not blown up. Clearly

I said "IF".... I normally don't count them.

Hof imo gets all blurry just as p4p can. I just keep it at threat going in and rank earned rather then rank granted. You know that the IBF actually had a & b # 2 rankings when Roy and Bernard fought. Thats bizarre.

Edit- A couple of months after they fought

[Mattyhitman]

Going back to light heavy to fight Tarver from heavy beating Ruiz but that is easy with hindsight.

This was my initial thought on it. After beating Ruiz, he was widely recognized as the No1 P4P back then. After the 1st Tarver fight ya could see some decline, weight loss may have something to do with this, needless to say that was the beginning of the end for Superman RJJ.

[Fenster]

technically flawed? the 70s or 40s? GTFOH

It's getting a bit absurd that everyone rides off giving passed to the old era guys simply because they were first. In fact it's basically almost unspoken that no new fighter will ever surpass the old guys. There's always some excuse to discredit the evolution of the sport.

RJJ, FLOYD, PAC, BHOP, SWEET PEA, to name a few would compete and be great in any era.

RJJ vs those old slower plodders around his division would be smacked around. Everyone makes it seem as if because he was unorthodox that he didn't know how to box. He rarely lost rounds because he maximized his abilities. Technical skills or not if they could hit him it was rendered useless, ask reggie johnson about his technical skills, or virgil hill. Plus RJJ had tremendous power between 160-168 so its not like he was some flashy guy that could hurt someone. Once Roy tagged anyone from any era and they witnessed first hand his speed it would instantly change their game plan.

You're missing an essential point. Several actually. First calling Ezzard, Archie, Billy Fox, Jack Chase, Marvin Johnson, Mike Spinks, Victor Galindez etc slow plodders is really, really wrong. Second, speed, power etc can be nullified by superior craft. Let me make an analogy. Every year coming out of college there are a series of 6'2, 200 pound wide outs who can run 4.4 forties and jump out of the stadium. And every year a bunch crash and burn in camp. Why? Because they don't have the technique to a) even get off the line of scrimmage against a good corner b) recognize what defense is being played and/or c) how to disuise what pattern they are running. Athleticism without craft doesn't work all that well. Jerry Rice wasn't the biggest, or fastest or strongest but he knew how to play.

I find it fascinating that guys as diverse as Teddy Atlas, Freddie Roach, Dan Cuoco, Rollie Hackmer and Skeeter McClure think guys like Moore, Charles, Billy Conn, Harold Johnson would handle Roy without too much trouble.

These guys often - consistently in some cases - get modern-day fights wrong. They have access to full fight footage of not only entire careers but also have collateral formlines to work with.

For sure their opinion is greatly respected, however, trying to match fighters seperated by 50 years comes down to nothing more than a guess. It doesn't matter how much of a history buff you are

[FinitoElDinamita]

He was used to dominating his opponents until he made a crucial mistake of shedding down from HW to LHW in a short amount of time to face Tarver and when he got knocked out in the rematch, his confidence and his aura of invincibility was totally shattered into million pieces.. That KO didnt take much from him, physically, but it really messed him up mentally and he went downhill from that point..

He's still greater than Hopkins imo..