The Hype with Saul Alverez (apologies if spelt incorrectly!)

[oakleyno1]

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

[Kev]

I really think the hype is 90% due to his unusual for a Mexican red hair and freckles. He's a novelty act. Going 12 rounds in successive fights with Lovemore Ndou, Matthew Hatton and Ryan Rhodes really doesn't speak power puncher to me.

So far all the fights I've seen him in have bored me.

I don't regard Adrian Broner as a power puncher really yet he destroyed a better opponent, in a single round and has a higher KO percentage than Canelo too.

At only 21 though you have to assume that he will get better. I imagine by the time he is 23/34 he will be a very solid fighter and tough to beat.

Right now they will need to keep matching him carefully.

I think Cintron would beat him right now.

[Rantcatrat]

Oakley, I completely see where you are coming from. Alvarez has looked good, not great, yet he is headlining HBO shows, doing impressive television ratings and selling out soccer stadiums. He's a rock star in Mexico. Generally, when prospects move up the ranks to facing top 10-20 boxers, they are fighting on ESPN2 or the undercard of HBO after dark shows. For example, Vanes Martirosyan is a former US Olympian of a similar world ranking as Alvarez who hasn't got near the exposure. Something doesn't add up. Much the same with Chavez Jr. You are correct that it has a lot to do with the novelty of a fair-skinned, red-haired Mexican.

All that said, he is only 20, we should give him time to develop. He doesn't belong in the ring with any top boxer at 154 now or in the near future. He wouldn't beat Angulo, Dzinziruk, or Cotto. However, as boxing fans, we should embrace him to an extent because his popularity is good for the sport. Let's just not allow the hype surrounding him to cloud our judgment of his actual boxing skill level. A good test for him is his mandatory - Vanes Martirosyan.

[Spicoli]

He is a very methodical strong kid with solid head and body attack. He also has great promotional ties and def is being groomed as the next golden child of sorts. The buzz is warranted but the hype can be blinding in this sport. He has had solid showcase platforms afforded to him on HBO against two spirited heavy bags and frankly it wasn't a question of 'who' but 'when' going into those. You could almost see him working on things in there, not exactly carrying them late but feeling and learning stamina which I get the feeling might be an issue. He has the best of both worlds with massive exposure, a world title and has not had to fight monsters to get it. He's been carefully matched for a guy with 38 fights, I dont care if he's 13 or 20. Hype and anointing a quality talent on a massive stage can be their downfall as everything is emphasized and undoubtedly scrutinized but he has got people talking and generated buzz so there is no going back now. Its time to step it up in comp.

[Kev]

It is strange to see him headlining HBO cards. Showtime fair enough, but a HBO main event seems a little early. But there's a lot of interest I guess and HBO put the fighters on that people want to see.

I do think he will be more Joel Julio than Floyd Mayweather as young prospects go.

[Spicoli]

It is strange to see him headlining HBO cards. Showtime fair enough, but a HBO main event seems a little early. But there's a lot of interest I guess and HBO put the fighters on that people want to see.

I do think he will be more Joel Julio than Floyd Mayweather as young prospects go.

Yeh I think its a bad turn when it becomes more "American Idol" in grooming stars for HBO than making solid competive fights for fans. More and more we except it. Ya just shouldn't settle for seeing a great prospect in a one sided show where all things seem just a formality rather than an actual question. He's 20, I know

[boxingbantz]

It is strange to see him headlining HBO cards. Showtime fair enough, but a HBO main event seems a little early. But there's a lot of interest I guess and HBO put the fighters on that people want to see.

I do think he will be more Joel Julio than Floyd Mayweather as young prospects go.

Considering how much exposure they give Andre Berto, I think this pours some doubt on that argument.

[Fenster]

Typical overhyped Mexifraud. Fact.

Guy has everything in his favour - home advantage, ref, judges, crowd, promotion and still can't easily dispatch two mediocre British, in fact less than mediocre, fighters.

24 rounds with two toilet Brits that ain't even the best in their own country. Pathetic.

Mexifraud will be destroyed the minute he meets a decent fighter. Fact.

[Mars_ax]

]It is strange to see him headlining HBO cards. [/B]Showtime fair enough, but a HBO main event seems a little early. But there's a lot of interest I guess and HBO put the fighters on that people want to see.

I do think he will be more Joel Julio than Floyd Mayweather as young prospects go.

Last night's fight was on HBO's Boxing after Dark (B.A.D.), it features fighters like Alvarez, HBO's World Class Boxing (W.C.B.) is a step up from B.A.D., so it's not all that strange to see Alvarez headlining a B.A.D. card.

I believe you're underestimating this kid if you see him as another Joel Julio, he's much better even at 20 then Julio has ever been in his entire career. Canelo might not be the next Pacquiao, but right now he's got an extremely bright future.

[Fenster]

Yeah I generally agree with you Bilbo about Alvarez. He's good but I doubt great. But we'll see. Although I didn't realise this kid was considered good looking? That's a weird one to me...

[marbleheadmaui]

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

He's vastly further along at 20 than almost anyone else in boxing is or has been recently. So he has 6-7 more years before he reaches his physical peak to learn. But you've identified him properly. He's a prospect.

[Fenster]

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

He's vastly further along at 20 than almost anyone else in boxing is or has been recently. So he has 6-7 more years before he reaches his physical peak to learn. But you've identified him properly. He's a prospect.

Alvarez is a good modern-day example of your theory that more fights means superior craft, right? Considering the level he is already at - top ten division rated and "world" champion - you must expect him to achieve great things (as long as he doesn't become a drug addict or a drunk or whatever)?

I will confidently predict that Alvarez will be on the slide, if not finished, in 6/7 years time let alone at his peak. Even if he produces great form in the next few years.

37 fights at 20-years-old, already a "world" champion, can sell 15,000 tickets and is headlining HBO productions. He is already in a position where he is forced to face top opposition amongst the "gimmes." Considering losses are more detrimental these days, he is a huge underdog to hand around that long. No?

[marbleheadmaui]

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

He's vastly further along at 20 than almost anyone else in boxing is or has been recently. So he has 6-7 more years before he reaches his physical peak to learn. But you've identified him properly. He's a prospect.

Alvarez is a good modern-day example of your theory that more fights means superior craft, right? Considering the level he is already at - top ten division rated and "world" champion - you must expect him to achieve great things (as long as he doesn't become a drug addict or a drunk or whatever)?

I will confidently predict that Alvarez will be on the slide, if not finished, in 6/7 years time let alone at his peak. Even if he produces great form in the next few years.

37 fights at 20-years-old, already a "world" champion, can sell 15,000 tickets and is headlining HBO productions. He is already in a position where he is forced to face top opposition amongst the "gimmes." Considering losses are more detrimental these days, he is a huge underdog to hand around that long. No?

More fights means superior craft for a given fighter sure. Meaning Alvarez is further along than Alvarez would be had he fought only twenty times. It says some very sad things about the state of the sport that Alvarez is ranked, let alone some sort of titleholder. The guy is a prospect.

The question is does the guy have natural talent? Thus far he seems to have at least some. He's a satisfactory puncher, he has shown the ability to learn and he seems to like fighting. Of course he doesn't have exceptional speed and his craft is not nearly fully developed yet. He really needs to concentrate on keeping his head moving.

I don't know where he'll be in 6-7 years. We seem to have stopped making quality middles these days.

[Fenster]

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

He's vastly further along at 20 than almost anyone else in boxing is or has been recently. So he has 6-7 more years before he reaches his physical peak to learn. But you've identified him properly. He's a prospect.

Alvarez is a good modern-day example of your theory that more fights means superior craft, right? Considering the level he is already at - top ten division rated and "world" champion - you must expect him to achieve great things (as long as he doesn't become a drug addict or a drunk or whatever)?

I will confidently predict that Alvarez will be on the slide, if not finished, in 6/7 years time let alone at his peak. Even if he produces great form in the next few years.

37 fights at 20-years-old, already a "world" champion, can sell 15,000 tickets and is headlining HBO productions. He is already in a position where he is forced to face top opposition amongst the "gimmes." Considering losses are more detrimental these days, he is a huge underdog to hand around that long. No?

More fights means superior craft for a given fighter sure. Meaning Alvarez is further along than Alvarez would be had he fought only twenty times. It says some very sad things about the state of the sport that Alvarez is ranked, let alone some sort of titleholder. The guy is a prospect.

The question is does the guy have natural talent? Thus far he seems to have at least some. He's a satisfactory puncher, he has shown the ability to learn and he seems to like fighting. Of course he doesn't have exceptional speed and his craft is not nearly fully developed yet. He really needs to concentrate on keeping his head moving.

I don't know where he'll be in 6-7 years. We seem to have stopped making quality middles these days.

So, basically, if he doesn't live up to your standards, even following the old school path, he never had the talent anyway?

How do you regard amateur fights in a boxers development? Alvarez has had 20 amateur fights and now 37 as a pro - so overall 57 fights. A fighter like Juan Guzman had over 300 amateur contests as well as his 30+ pro bouts.

How important is amateur boxing for fight experience? And is it only natural an inexperienced pro should fight more regular?

[marbleheadmaui]

The thing with being 'this good' as you say though is that he doesnt seem to be 'that good'. Perhaps im being harsh but any good up and coming fighter should be beating hatton and rhodes, they are gatekeepers. if he had taken them out in 3 or 4 rounds each fair enough but apart from have alot of pro fights, which he has had a few sd's i dont see what he has done to stand out as an outstanding prospect people on here and max kellerman rate him as

He's vastly further along at 20 than almost anyone else in boxing is or has been recently. So he has 6-7 more years before he reaches his physical peak to learn. But you've identified him properly. He's a prospect.

Alvarez is a good modern-day example of your theory that more fights means superior craft, right? Considering the level he is already at - top ten division rated and "world" champion - you must expect him to achieve great things (as long as he doesn't become a drug addict or a drunk or whatever)?

I will confidently predict that Alvarez will be on the slide, if not finished, in 6/7 years time let alone at his peak. Even if he produces great form in the next few years.

37 fights at 20-years-old, already a "world" champion, can sell 15,000 tickets and is headlining HBO productions. He is already in a position where he is forced to face top opposition amongst the "gimmes." Considering losses are more detrimental these days, he is a huge underdog to hand around that long. No?

More fights means superior craft for a given fighter sure. Meaning Alvarez is further along than Alvarez would be had he fought only twenty times. It says some very sad things about the state of the sport that Alvarez is ranked, let alone some sort of titleholder. The guy is a prospect.

The question is does the guy have natural talent? Thus far he seems to have at least some. He's a satisfactory puncher, he has shown the ability to learn and he seems to like fighting. Of course he doesn't have exceptional speed and his craft is not nearly fully developed yet. He really needs to concentrate on keeping his head moving.

I don't know where he'll be in 6-7 years. We seem to have stopped making quality middles these days.

So, basically, if he doesn't live up to your standards, even following the old school path, he never had the talent anyway?
How do you regard amateur fights in a boxers development? Alvarez has had 20 amateur fights and now 37 as a pro - so overall 57 fights. A fighter like Juan Guzman had over 300 amateur contests as well as his 30+ pro bouts.

How important is amateur boxing for fight experience? And is it only natural an inexperienced pro should fight more regular?

[scratching head]

The bold makes no logical sense that I can see. Let me try it this way. Boxing is no different than any other human endeavor. The more one does it, the better one gets (up until of course one gets too old or takes too many blows). But one is still capped by one's potential. One can learn to do everything properly, but if one has slow hands, slow feet, a weak chin and no natural power? he's only going to be able to be so good. The term you'll sometimes hear about a guy who does everything right and still isn't very good is LOFT (lack of effing talent). Put another way, take Floyd Mayweather's toolbox and train him the same way and have him fight the same comp as an untalented, but fully skilled guy? Floyd turns out better. But here's the thing. Take a highly talented, limited skill and craft guy and match him up with a moderately talented highly skilled and crafty guy? I'll bet on the latter everty time.

As far as Alvarez goes specifically? I think his development of skill and craft is essential because I don't see a pile of talent jumping off the screen at me. Do you? Of course I never saw a pile of talent coming off the screen from a guy like Juan Manuel Marquez either and he's done ok.

I think amateur fighting today can be as much detriment as help. Due to the headgear and silly scoring system the two sports are more different than they have ever been. In the ams one doesn't get rewarded for power, bodypunching and toughness the way one does in the pro's.

As far as inexperienced pro's? I can only look at how the greats were brought along and it seems reasonably consistent. Fight every month or more until one is nearly fully developed.