Paul Williams needs Emanuel Steward

[Nameless]

Cotto has been helped by Manny. Andy Lee is ok with Manny, 1 loss which he's been ready to avenge for a long time. I think Dawson can get help from Manny.

Honestly for Williams I think his best bet for a different trainer to help him out would have been someone like Ronnie Shields or Pat Burns, not "super" trainers but good guys that know their stuff and could help with fundamentals.

Shields and Burns are very good trainers, if I would be a boxer and that any of them would accept to train me, I'd be thrilled. However, I think that people are writing off Williams too fast, I am sure that in the Kronk environment (so not only with Manny) he would learn faster, that he wants or not. Williams is already quite agressive in the ring, which is something quite important in the Kronk style, he would just have to learn to use the other attributes more effectively.

[Ant Live]

Cotto has been helped by Manny. Andy Lee is ok with Manny, 1 loss which he's been ready to avenge for a long time. I think Dawson can get help from Manny.

Honestly for Williams I think his best bet for a different trainer to help him out would have been someone like Ronnie Shields or Pat Burns, not "super" trainers but good guys that know their stuff and could help with fundamentals.

Shields and Burns are very good trainers, if I would be a boxer and that any of them would accept to train me, I'd be thrilled. However, I think that people are writing off Williams too fast, I am sure that in the Kronk environment (so not only with Manny) he would learn faster, that he wants or not. Williams is already quite agressive in the ring, which is something quite important in the Kronk style, he would just have to learn to use the other attributes more effectively.

Floyd Sr can teach him defense. That's all he need to learn. Especially since he like to fight in the pocket. A shoulder role will do the kids wonders.
Like someone else said, I don't think Paul is well done yet. He close but not yet. He could very well scout his next opponent, a righty, and not get hit as much and win a title
i.e. K9 and/or Saul
don't get me wrong, if he get caught by either, it won't be no need for a bedtime story.

[JazMerkin]

Shields and Burns are very good trainers, if I would be a boxer and that any of them would accept to train me, I'd be thrilled. However, I think that people are writing off Williams too fast, I am sure that in the Kronk environment (so not only with Manny) he would learn faster, that he wants or not. Williams is already quite agressive in the ring, which is something quite important in the Kronk style, he would just have to learn to use the other attributes more effectively.

He wasn't born into the Kronk environment, he grew up in North Carolina. The fighters who've gone to Kronk & done well with the style were all excellent amateurs and/or very intelligent fighters. Williams is neither. He's an exceptional athlete, but not an intelligent fighter. The complete lack of head movement is shocking. If you boxed at an amateur gym, you'd identify the guys who are really intelligent fighters & adapt well. Now, often these guys will achieve well, but not always. Sometimes there are raw athletic talents, who are very predictable, but whose athleticism & fortitude allows them to beat more technically astute opponents.

I'd also argue that this Williams just doesn't deal with southpaws thing well is a real red herring. Of his last ten fights, only two have been against orthodox fighters. In fact, he has an extremely high number of southpaw opponents for any fighter. What this tells me about his match-making is that those who see him regularly don't want him in with orthodox guys. I can definitely see this, not only from the Cintron & end of the Margarito fights, but also in how he attacks. He opens right up & would be a real sucker for a right hand down the middle imo.

[marbleheadmaui]

Shields and Burns are very good trainers, if I would be a boxer and that any of them would accept to train me, I'd be thrilled. However, I think that people are writing off Williams too fast, I am sure that in the Kronk environment (so not only with Manny) he would learn faster, that he wants or not. Williams is already quite agressive in the ring, which is something quite important in the Kronk style, he would just have to learn to use the other attributes more effectively.

He wasn't born into the Kronk environment, he grew up in North Carolina. The fighters who've gone to Kronk & done well with the style were all excellent amateurs and/or very intelligent fighters. Williams is neither. He's an exceptional athlete, but not an intelligent fighter. The complete lack of head movement is shocking. If you boxed at an amateur gym, you'd identify the guys who are really intelligent fighters & adapt well. Now, often these guys will achieve well, but not always. Sometimes there are raw athletic talents, who are very predictable, but whose athleticism & fortitude allows them to beat more technically astute opponents.

I'd also argue that this Williams just doesn't deal with southpaws thing well is a real red herring. Of his last ten fights, only two have been against orthodox fighters. In fact, he has an extremely high number of southpaw opponents for any fighter. What this tells me about his match-making is that those who see him regularly don't want him in with orthodox guys. I can definitely see this, not only from the Cintron & end of the Margarito fights, but also in how he attacks. He opens right up & would be a real sucker for a right hand down the middle imo.

That really leaves no excuse for not having a clue about avoiding that left and is an extraordinary indictment of his trainer.

[JazMerkin]

He wasn't born into the Kronk environment, he grew up in North Carolina. The fighters who've gone to Kronk & done well with the style were all excellent amateurs and/or very intelligent fighters. Williams is neither. He's an exceptional athlete, but not an intelligent fighter. The complete lack of head movement is shocking. If you boxed at an amateur gym, you'd identify the guys who are really intelligent fighters & adapt well. Now, often these guys will achieve well, but not always. Sometimes there are raw athletic talents, who are very predictable, but whose athleticism & fortitude allows them to beat more technically astute opponents.

I'd also argue that this Williams just doesn't deal with southpaws thing well is a real red herring. Of his last ten fights, only two have been against orthodox fighters. In fact, he has an extremely high number of southpaw opponents for any fighter. What this tells me about his match-making is that those who see him regularly don't want him in with orthodox guys. I can definitely see this, not only from the Cintron & end of the Margarito fights, but also in how he attacks. He opens right up & would be a real sucker for a right hand down the middle imo.

That really leaves no excuse for not having a clue about avoiding that left and is an extraordinary indictment of his trainer.

Definitely. I've long thought that George Peterson is a blow-hard of the highest order. It's fine to talk some shit, if you've really taught some fighters the ropes in the way guys like Kevin Cunningham or the Mayweathers have. But Peterson seems to just encourage Williams to keep trying to out-throw his opponent & just trots out stock phrases like 'take his left hand away' without advising how to actually do it.

It was one of the real shocks for me when I went over to the US recently & sparred. I went over with this idea in my head of damn near every fighter being a mini-Mayweather or Hopkins. Instead all the guys I sparred were strong, but remarkably stupid in the ring. Just charging forward over-eager to stand & trade. I'm really not some fantastic boxer & regularly get busted up in the gym, yet I felt like Ray Leonard. Now there's obviously gyms still creating excellent talents (there was another that looked to have some great guys that I wanted to go to in DC, but then I looked at the murder rate in that area ), but I suspect this gym was symptomatic of many & probably the kind of gym that Peterson ran.

[marbleheadmaui]

He wasn't born into the Kronk environment, he grew up in North Carolina. The fighters who've gone to Kronk & done well with the style were all excellent amateurs and/or very intelligent fighters. Williams is neither. He's an exceptional athlete, but not an intelligent fighter. The complete lack of head movement is shocking. If you boxed at an amateur gym, you'd identify the guys who are really intelligent fighters & adapt well. Now, often these guys will achieve well, but not always. Sometimes there are raw athletic talents, who are very predictable, but whose athleticism & fortitude allows them to beat more technically astute opponents.

I'd also argue that this Williams just doesn't deal with southpaws thing well is a real red herring. Of his last ten fights, only two have been against orthodox fighters. In fact, he has an extremely high number of southpaw opponents for any fighter. What this tells me about his match-making is that those who see him regularly don't want him in with orthodox guys. I can definitely see this, not only from the Cintron & end of the Margarito fights, but also in how he attacks. He opens right up & would be a real sucker for a right hand down the middle imo.

That really leaves no excuse for not having a clue about avoiding that left and is an extraordinary indictment of his trainer.

Definitely. I've long thought that George Peterson is a blow-hard of the highest order. It's fine to talk some shit, if you've really taught some fighters the ropes in the way guys like Kevin Cunningham or the Mayweathers have. But Peterson seems to just encourage Williams to keep trying to out-throw his opponent & just trots out stock phrases like 'take his left hand away' without advising how to actually do it.

It was one of the real shocks for me when I went over to the US recently & sparred. I went over with this idea in my head of damn near every fighter being a mini-Mayweather or Hopkins. Instead all the guys I sparred were strong, but remarkably stupid in the ring. Just charging forward over-eager to stand & trade. I'm really not some fantastic boxer & regularly get busted up in the gym, yet I felt like Ray Leonard. Now there's obviously gyms still creating excellent talents (there was another that looked to have some great guys that I wanted to go to in DC, but then I looked at the murder rate in that area ), but I suspect this gym was symptomatic of many & probably the kind of gym that Peterson ran.

There has been a real distinction between the US and Brit teaching styles that goes back at least 100 years. In various books I've read men like Dempsey, Ross, Wilde, Buchanan all talk about it. Back foot vs front foot, left hand emphasis vs power punching emphasis etc. It's pretty interesting

I think your experience with the US guys is symptomatic of the decline in teaching in the USA though. I mean go back 25-30 years in the US and look at the rankings.

The US had guys known for their banging like Leonard and Hearns and Curry and Hagler and Mike Spinks. But every one of those guys were complete boxers as well. Today? We have guys like Bradley and BHOP and Ward, who are complete fighters but cannot punch, or guys like Rios or Ortiz or Berto, who can punch but aren't remotely complete fighters.

[JazMerkin]

He wasn't born into the Kronk environment, he grew up in North Carolina. The fighters who've gone to Kronk & done well with the style were all excellent amateurs and/or very intelligent fighters. Williams is neither. He's an exceptional athlete, but not an intelligent fighter. The complete lack of head movement is shocking. If you boxed at an amateur gym, you'd identify the guys who are really intelligent fighters & adapt well. Now, often these guys will achieve well, but not always. Sometimes there are raw athletic talents, who are very predictable, but whose athleticism & fortitude allows them to beat more technically astute opponents.

I'd also argue that this Williams just doesn't deal with southpaws thing well is a real red herring. Of his last ten fights, only two have been against orthodox fighters. In fact, he has an extremely high number of southpaw opponents for any fighter. What this tells me about his match-making is that those who see him regularly don't want him in with orthodox guys. I can definitely see this, not only from the Cintron & end of the Margarito fights, but also in how he attacks. He opens right up & would be a real sucker for a right hand down the middle imo.

That really leaves no excuse for not having a clue about avoiding that left and is an extraordinary indictment of his trainer.

Definitely. I've long thought that George Peterson is a blow-hard of the highest order. It's fine to talk some shit, if you've really taught some fighters the ropes in the way guys like Kevin Cunningham or the Mayweathers have. But Peterson seems to just encourage Williams to keep trying to out-throw his opponent & just trots out stock phrases like 'take his left hand away' without advising how to actually do it.

It was one of the real shocks for me when I went over to the US recently & sparred. I went over with this idea in my head of damn near every fighter being a mini-Mayweather or Hopkins. Instead all the guys I sparred were strong, but remarkably stupid in the ring. Just charging forward over-eager to stand & trade. I'm really not some fantastic boxer & regularly get busted up in the gym, yet I felt like Ray Leonard. Now there's obviously gyms still creating excellent talents (there was another that looked to have some great guys that I wanted to go to in DC, but then I looked at the murder rate in that area ), but I suspect this gym was symptomatic of many & probably the kind of gym that Peterson ran.

There has been a real distinction between the US and Brit teaching styles that goes back at least 100 years. In various books I've read men like Dempsey, Ross, Wilde, Buchanan all talk about it. Back foot vs front foot, left hand emphasis vs power punching emphasis etc. It's pretty interesting

I think your experience with the US guys is symptomatic of the decline in teaching in the USA though. I mean go back 25-30 years in the US and look at the rankings.

The US had guys known for their banging like Leonard and Hearns and Curry and Hagler and Mike Spinks. But every one of those guys were complete boxers as well. Today? We have guys like Bradley and BHOP and Ward, who are complete fighters but cannot punch, or guys like Rios or Ortiz or Berto, who can punch but aren't remotely complete fighters.

I agree with all of that with the exception of punching. I think Hopkins was a pretty good puncher at Middleweight, but I don't think he really carried the snap up with him & his drop in speed & work-rate has seen his power fall away. But, yeah I do agree on the standard of US teaching. I will hold that I didn't go to the best gyms in the city because I wasn't so desperate for quality sparring that I was willing to get shot or robbed

I also box at one of the better clubs in London, where there is a deeper pool than elsewhere, so maybe I'm just comparing an apple with a mouldy orange. But it really did shock me how unrefined these guys were. They didn't work behind the jab so much as flick it out as a distraction as they tried to line up the big back hand or lead hook. I definitely think it's a decline. There's probably a strong argument that there's been a decline over here as well, but probably nowhere near as huge.

I mean going back further, I remember when I first watched footage of Jake LaMotta. I was watching a lot of Cotto fights at the time, a man who was considered a combo of power & technical skill. I expected to see the LaMotta I'd heard described, a messy brawler. Instead I saw a guy doing all the things that I so admired watching Cotto for, using a clever jab & nice head movement to get inside. I think maybe too many guys watched Raging Bull or Rocky & thought that is how you actually box

[marbleheadmaui]

I agree with all of that with the exception of punching. I think Hopkins was a pretty good puncher at Middleweight, but I don't think he really carried the snap up with him & his drop in speed & work-rate has seen his power fall away. But, yeah I do agree on the standard of US teaching. I will hold that I didn't go to the best gyms in the city because I wasn't so desperate for quality sparring that I was willing to get shot or robbed

I also box at one of the better clubs in London, where there is a deeper pool than elsewhere, so maybe I'm just comparing an apple with a mouldy orange. But it really did shock me how unrefined these guys were. They didn't work behind the jab so much as flick it out as a distraction as they tried to line up the big back hand or lead hook. I definitely think it's a decline. There's probably a strong argument that there's been a decline over here as well, but probably nowhere near as huge.

I mean going back further, I remember when I first watched footage of Jake LaMotta. I was watching a lot of Cotto fights at the time, a man who was considered a combo of power & technical skill. I expected to see the LaMotta I'd heard described, a messy brawler. Instead I saw a guy doing all the things that I so admired watching Cotto for, using a clever jab & nice head movement to get inside. I think maybe too many guys watched Raging Bull or Rocky & thought that is how you actually box

Yup. You watch footage of men with reputations as hard men or unskilled brawlers like LaMotta or Tony Zale or Carmen Basilio and you realize they really knew what they were doing. But you have to be an educated fan to know what you're watching.

I don't know that ten year old kids bring preconceptions with them to a boxing gym that last very long. In my expereince they are pretty malleable, at least initially. It's the teaching and the teachers.