The Top Twenty Heavies

[ryanman]

It's still not solid enough for me. Unfortunately for the sake of this thread, cold hard facts can sometimes be lost on me simply because they are only relevant to their own era's. Which is why IMO, you have to leave room for speculation simply because the ballpark has and always will change.
Ken Norton who went 1-4 against the other major players of his era, is a hall of famer yet Donnavan Ruddock isn't.

Why? Because Ken Norton beat a past prime and somewhat overrated Muhammad Ali.

I do realise Sly was inducted in a non-fighting capacity but I'm allowed artistic licence because i was making a good point with it

See I agree & disagree Jim. I personally believe that Norton is more than worthy in the same way I consider guys like Winky Wright & Jose Luis Castillo to be locks were I to have a vote. Norton was competitive with all the best guys he fought with the exception of Foreman, whose power he just couldn't handle (no shame there).

However, what this exposes is the problem in ranking people based on some kind of Top Trumps system. I'm also of the belief that it's far easier for these older guys to get in based off the fact they don't have to deal with every second of their careers being analysed meticulously. We simply see their best bits & trust individual interpretations of how good they are, which may be subject to hyperbole. I mean that's all good, but based off press interpretations of his last 3 fights you could be led to believe that Sergio Martinez is one of the greatest Middleweights of all time. The difference is we can view those fights ourselves & make our own judgements.

I also agree that to a point the HoF is subjective. Should a win over Barry McGuigan or Ingemar Johannson be worth more than a win over Genaro Hernandez or Masao Ohba when I consider the latter pair to be more talented fighters & with comparative or better resumes?

I think having some criteria is great, but at the end of the day, what you see with your own eyes is equally important. HOW someone performs/wins/loses is just as important to me. Regardless of how many different factors are used to try & define it, at the end it's all just opinion.

My Top 20

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Jack Johnson
3. Joe Louis
4. Joe Frazier
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Dempsey
7. George Foreman
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Jim Jeffries
10. Evander Holyfield
11. Mike Tyson
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Sonny Liston
14. Sam Langford
15. Gene Tunney
16. Ezzard Charles
17. Floyd Patterson
18. Ken Norton
19. Wlad Klitschko
20. Max Schmeling

The bold is bullspit that you keep repeating. Just because you haven't read in detail multiple accounts of older greats and their fights doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because you haven't watched the extensive footage available on most of these guys doesn't mean others haven't. The idea that TODAY's men are under more scrutiny is crazy. The sport has shrunk dramatically in terms of observation and observers.

How can one not have criteria? How in the hell do you do your rankings? Pulling names outy of hats?

Having said that, that's not a bad list. Except I don't know how one can "use their eyes," watch footage of both Johnson and Louis, and rank Johnson higher.

Oh, and where is Charlie Chaplin in your list?

I was just wondering because it seems your number one criteria for any list is that the person in question performed in black & white.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

It's still not solid enough for me. Unfortunately for the sake of this thread, cold hard facts can sometimes be lost on me simply because they are only relevant to their own era's. Which is why IMO, you have to leave room for speculation simply because the ballpark has and always will change.
Ken Norton who went 1-4 against the other major players of his era, is a hall of famer yet Donnavan Ruddock isn't.

Why? Because Ken Norton beat a past prime and somewhat overrated Muhammad Ali.

I do realise Sly was inducted in a non-fighting capacity but I'm allowed artistic licence because i was making a good point with it

See I agree & disagree Jim. I personally believe that Norton is more than worthy in the same way I consider guys like Winky Wright & Jose Luis Castillo to be locks were I to have a vote. Norton was competitive with all the best guys he fought with the exception of Foreman, whose power he just couldn't handle (no shame there).

However, what this exposes is the problem in ranking people based on some kind of Top Trumps system. I'm also of the belief that it's far easier for these older guys to get in based off the fact they don't have to deal with every second of their careers being analysed meticulously. We simply see their best bits & trust individual interpretations of how good they are, which may be subject to hyperbole. I mean that's all good, but based off press interpretations of his last 3 fights you could be led to believe that Sergio Martinez is one of the greatest Middleweights of all time. The difference is we can view those fights ourselves & make our own judgements.

I also agree that to a point the HoF is subjective. Should a win over Barry McGuigan or Ingemar Johannson be worth more than a win over Genaro Hernandez or Masao Ohba when I consider the latter pair to be more talented fighters & with comparative or better resumes?

I think having some criteria is great, but at the end of the day, what you see with your own eyes is equally important. HOW someone performs/wins/loses is just as important to me. Regardless of how many different factors are used to try & define it, at the end it's all just opinion.

My Top 20

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Jack Johnson
3. Joe Louis
4. Joe Frazier
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Dempsey
7. George Foreman
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Jim Jeffries
10. Evander Holyfield
11. Mike Tyson
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Sonny Liston
14. Sam Langford
15. Gene Tunney
16. Ezzard Charles
17. Floyd Patterson
18. Ken Norton
19. Wlad Klitschko
20. Max Schmeling

The bold is bullspit that you keep repeating. Just because you haven't read in detail multiple accounts of older greats and their fights doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because you haven't watched the extensive footage available on most of these guys doesn't mean others haven't. The idea that TODAY's men are under more scrutiny is crazy. The sport has shrunk dramatically in terms of observation and observers.

How can one not have criteria? How in the hell do you do your rankings? Pulling names outy of hats?

Having said that, that's not a bad list. Except I don't know how one can "use their eyes," watch footage of both Johnson and Louis, and rank Johnson higher.

Oh, and where is Charlie Chaplin in your list?

I was just wondering because it seems your number one criteria for any list is that the person in question performed in black & white.

You're SO wrong. Buster Keaton owns Chaplin. Keaton has that mean mutha expression and a 'special' hand.

[marbleheadmaui]

It's still not solid enough for me. Unfortunately for the sake of this thread, cold hard facts can sometimes be lost on me simply because they are only relevant to their own era's. Which is why IMO, you have to leave room for speculation simply because the ballpark has and always will change.
Ken Norton who went 1-4 against the other major players of his era, is a hall of famer yet Donnavan Ruddock isn't.

Why? Because Ken Norton beat a past prime and somewhat overrated Muhammad Ali.

I do realise Sly was inducted in a non-fighting capacity but I'm allowed artistic licence because i was making a good point with it

See I agree & disagree Jim. I personally believe that Norton is more than worthy in the same way I consider guys like Winky Wright & Jose Luis Castillo to be locks were I to have a vote. Norton was competitive with all the best guys he fought with the exception of Foreman, whose power he just couldn't handle (no shame there).

However, what this exposes is the problem in ranking people based on some kind of Top Trumps system. I'm also of the belief that it's far easier for these older guys to get in based off the fact they don't have to deal with every second of their careers being analysed meticulously. We simply see their best bits & trust individual interpretations of how good they are, which may be subject to hyperbole. I mean that's all good, but based off press interpretations of his last 3 fights you could be led to believe that Sergio Martinez is one of the greatest Middleweights of all time. The difference is we can view those fights ourselves & make our own judgements.

I also agree that to a point the HoF is subjective. Should a win over Barry McGuigan or Ingemar Johannson be worth more than a win over Genaro Hernandez or Masao Ohba when I consider the latter pair to be more talented fighters & with comparative or better resumes?

I think having some criteria is great, but at the end of the day, what you see with your own eyes is equally important. HOW someone performs/wins/loses is just as important to me. Regardless of how many different factors are used to try & define it, at the end it's all just opinion.

My Top 20

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Jack Johnson
3. Joe Louis
4. Joe Frazier
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Dempsey
7. George Foreman
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Jim Jeffries
10. Evander Holyfield
11. Mike Tyson
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Sonny Liston
14. Sam Langford
15. Gene Tunney
16. Ezzard Charles
17. Floyd Patterson
18. Ken Norton
19. Wlad Klitschko
20. Max Schmeling

The bold is bullspit that you keep repeating. Just because you haven't read in detail multiple accounts of older greats and their fights doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because you haven't watched the extensive footage available on most of these guys doesn't mean others haven't. The idea that TODAY's men are under more scrutiny is crazy. The sport has shrunk dramatically in terms of observation and observers.

How can one not have criteria? How in the hell do you do your rankings? Pulling names outy of hats?

Having said that, that's not a bad list. Except I don't know how one can "use their eyes," watch footage of both Johnson and Louis, and rank Johnson higher.

Oh, and where is Charlie Chaplin in your list?

I was just wondering because it seems your number one criteria for any list is that the person in question performed in black & white.

LOL! Another one who refuses to do the work!