Is Zab Judah an Elite fighter ?

[Kev]

I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.

Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.

Does that make Glen Johnson elite then ?

I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.

Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.

Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.

I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.

I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.

[FinitoElDinamita]

I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.

Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.

Does that make Glen Johnson elite then ?

I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.

Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.

Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.

I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.

I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.

^^ Now this is a sensible post.

[Pugilistic]

I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.

Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.

Does that make Glen Johnson elite then ?

I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.

Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.

Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.

I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.

I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.

well i apologize for not explaining my opinion properly.

I do think Judah is a worthy opponent for Khan and i do think he is one of the better fighters at 140 (possibly top 5) but i don't think he's elite.

Elite to me is one of the best fighters in the world. Judah doesn't fit that category which i'm sure you agree.

I don't like Boxrec for ratings. It's ratings are always odd. For example, It has Bute as the number 1 super middleweight when it clearly belongs to Ward. Hell Froch deserves it more than Bute does.

I'm glad we cleared up our different opinions on the meaning of "elite".

[Kev]

I don't disagree with any of that really. The Ring have Judah at 6 also.

Regarding the fight against Khan itself I expect Khan to beat him convincingly down the stretch.

I also don't like that he's being trained by Pernell Whittaker. When I saw that I just immediately thought of Micky Ward with Arturo Gatti.

I think Judah will wilt and give up around rounds 7 or 8 and then be content to just survive.

He will dangerous early though and he's clearly the best of all available opponents out there for Khan, would have much rather have been facing Tim Bradley.

[p4pking]

I voted no, but don't really disagree with any of the posts in this thread. It all depends what you take elite to mean. Saying Judah is so at 140 though, is really only because there are no great fighters currently in the division, at least imo. For me an elite fighter should be a legitimate threat to anybody more or less their size. Judah was basically beaten out of the WW division, and the best guys he didn't fight would've been and still would be solid favourites over him. He's certainly not much smaller than pretty well anyone who has beaten him. Definetly think he's a good opponent for Khan though, but mainly because Khan has shown to be quite vulnerable.

[Pugilistic]

I don't disagree with any of that really. The Ring have Judah at 6 also.

Regarding the fight against Khan itself I expect Khan to beat him convincingly down the stretch.

I also don't like that he's being trained by Pernell Whittaker. When I saw that I just immediately thought of Micky Ward with Arturo Gatti.

I think Judah will wilt and give up around rounds 7 or 8 and then be content to just survive.

He will dangerous early though and he's clearly the best of all available opponents out there for Khan, would have much rather have been facing Tim Bradley.

I agree.

I think Judah will be dangerous early as always. He will probably catch Khan with a good left hand a couple of times and rock him.

Judah will fade though and i see Khan taking over with his jab and workrate, maybe stopping him late, I see it most likely being a decision win for Khan though, like 9 rounds to 3.

I see it sort of going like Khan's fight against Paulie but with Judah having success early with southpaw stance and left hand.

I hope Tim Bradley is next also. I'm a Bradley fan so i wanna see it happen bad.

[J_Undisputed]

using "elite" to mean simply among the best in /around his weight class, I might be tempted to say yes considering if he could put forth one great performance, he might be able to take down anyone with a belt.
Taking into account some of the people he lost to or got gift decisions over, or who took him deeper than they should. I can't say yes anymore. Elite fighters don't lose to those guys or survive fighting those guys in that fashion. Everyone's got that scrub that will always give them problems. (let say we pencil in baldomir as that). There's still other fighters that raise question about Judah still having it anymore. Whats worse is that when you look at the things that follow the other questionable/poor performances, the only factor in common is Judah and his mush mouth father. (not fighting other southpaws, or in other countries, or draining himself down)... Based on that .. i have to say no. Even if he wins, he still wont be an elite fighter. If he wins, more people will still be talking about Kahn (good night/bad night? glass jaw/ lucky shot?) despite Judah supposedly rededicating himself and now having sweet pea in his corner... That says a lot about where Judah ranks among his peers.

[LukeH]

I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.

Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.

Does that make Glen Johnson elite then ?

I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.

Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.

Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.

I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.

I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.

A rough definition of elite is 'The best or most skilled members of a group'. I look at the group as boxing as a whole, in which case, as I said, to me Zab isn't nor ever has been elite. You seem to look at is each group is each weightclass? (not saying that's the wrong way to look at it).

[marbleheadmaui]

I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.

Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.

Does that make Glen Johnson elite then ?

I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.

Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.

Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.

I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.

I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.

See THAT is a post that makes sense to me. Quantifying the question. This idea of elite raises another issue I see and that is often labling top 1% fighters as "average" or "B-level" or some such thing.

The fact is the top 1% at ANYTHING is an exceptional performer (in that time period anyway). The problem of course is we almost never even mention, or are aware of, a truly mathematically average fighter. Heck almost everyone we talk about is a top 1% guy.

[p4pking]

I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.

Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.

Does that make Glen Johnson elite then ?

I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.

Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.

Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.

I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.

I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.

See THAT is a post that makes sense to me. Quantifying the question. This idea of elite raises another issue I see and that is often labling top 1% fighters as "average" or "B-level" or some such thing.

The fact is the top 1% at ANYTHING is an exceptional performer (in that time period anyway). The problem of course is we almost never even mention, or are aware of, a truly mathematically average fighter. Heck almost everyone we talk about is a top 1% guy.

That's very true of any sport though, and justifiably so. It's only due to the landscape of pro boxing that one might overstate the lines . You talk about anyone in MLS, the NFL, the NBA, you are talking more along the lines of the top .01% of guys who play proffessionaly. There are no average baseball players on the Yankees, it's just common sense.

[marbleheadmaui]

I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.

Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.

Does that make Glen Johnson elite then ?

I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.

Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.

Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.

I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.

I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.

See THAT is a post that makes sense to me. Quantifying the question. This idea of elite raises another issue I see and that is often labling top 1% fighters as "average" or "B-level" or some such thing.

The fact is the top 1% at ANYTHING is an exceptional performer (in that time period anyway). The problem of course is we almost never even mention, or are aware of, a truly mathematically average fighter. Heck almost everyone we talk about is a top 1% guy.

That's very true of any sport though, and justifiably so. It's only due to the landscape of pro boxing that one might overstate the lines . You talk about anyone in MLS, the NFL, the NBA, you are talking more along the lines of the top .01% of guys who play proffessionaly. There are no average baseball players on the Yankees, it's just common sense.

Bingo!

[Rantcatrat]

Zab Judah is the classic example of overrated. He has never won a really meaningful fight. I guess his best win was over Spinks and I'm not sure what that really says. He has never beat the man in his division. Since his foray back into the junior welterweight division, he's beat Mabuza and Matthysse, and the win against Matthysse was questionable, but a win nonetheless.

Is he elite as far as professional boxers all over the world? Certainly. However, is he elite, in the way the a lay person thinks of elite when considering boxing - "top of the game," "a true talent," "a beast," "p4p" etc. - no, he isn't. Is he a good opponent for Khan given Bradley isn't available? Yes, completely. Do I think Zab beats any of the top guys at 140? No. Yet, he has a puncher's chance in the first 5 or so rounds, which will make it somewhat interesting. I'm not a huge Khan fan, but I think Khan dominates this one.

[Kev]

Zab Judah is the classic example of overrated. He has never won a really meaningful fight. I guess his best win was over Spinks and I'm not sure what that really says. He has never beat the man in his division. Since his foray back into the junior welterweight division, he's beat Mabuza and Matthysse, and the win against Matthysse was questionable, but a win nonetheless.

Is he elite as far as professional boxers all over the world? Certainly. However, is he elite, in the way the a lay person thinks of elite when considering boxing - "top of the game," "a true talent," "a beast," "p4p" etc. - no, he isn't. Is he a good opponent for Khan given Bradley isn't available? Yes, completely. Do I think Zab beats any of the top guys at 140? No. Yet, he has a puncher's chance in the first 5 or so rounds, which will make it somewhat interesting. I'm not a huge Khan fan, but I think Khan dominates this one.

Spinks was the man in the division when he beat him. You may not rate him but after the fight he was the uinfied, undisputed, lineal and Ring champ.

Zab is a legit threat at 140. He already holds a close win (disputed) over Matthyse, who proved against Alexander that he is certainly one of the top guys in the weight class. There are only two guys in the division I think are better than Zab, Bradley and Khan. I'd give him an excellent chance over Maidana, Alexander, Morales and Kotelnik. He'd get beat by Gurrero or Marquez if they moved up though, although he'd be a better opponent at 140 than Marquez has ever beat above super featherweight and would have a real chance of upsetting him imo.

[p4pking]

Zab Judah is the classic example of overrated. He has never won a really meaningful fight. I guess his best win was over Spinks and I'm not sure what that really says. He has never beat the man in his division. Since his foray back into the junior welterweight division, he's beat Mabuza and Matthysse, and the win against Matthysse was questionable, but a win nonetheless.

Is he elite as far as professional boxers all over the world? Certainly. However, is he elite, in the way the a lay person thinks of elite when considering boxing - "top of the game," "a true talent," "a beast," "p4p" etc. - no, he isn't. Is he a good opponent for Khan given Bradley isn't available? Yes, completely. Do I think Zab beats any of the top guys at 140? No. Yet, he has a puncher's chance in the first 5 or so rounds, which will make it somewhat interesting. I'm not a huge Khan fan, but I think Khan dominates this one.

Spinks was the man in the division when he beat him. You may not rate him but after the fight he was the uinfied, undisputed, lineal and Ring champ.

Zab is a legit threat at 140. He already holds a close win (disputed) over Matthyse, who proved against Alexander that he is certainly one of the top guys in the weight class. There are only two guys in the division I think are better than Zab, Bradley and Khan. I'd give him an excellent chance over Maidana, Alexander, Morales and Kotelnik. He'd get beat by Gurrero or Marquez if they moved up though, although he'd be a better opponent at 140 than Marquez has ever beat above super featherweight and would have a real chance of upsetting him imo.

I actually think Judah might well have beatem Marquez at any point in time, although I completely rate JMM as a better fighter overall, even still. After watching how little Marquez could do against Mayweather and having gone back and watched him fight Norwood I really think Marquez would be the one with a punchers chance against Zab, it's a baaad style matchup imo.

[armin]

Zab Judah is the classic example of overrated. He has never won a really meaningful fight. I guess his best win was over Spinks and I'm not sure what that really says. He has never beat the man in his division. Since his foray back into the junior welterweight division, he's beat Mabuza and Matthysse, and the win against Matthysse was questionable, but a win nonetheless.

Is he elite as far as professional boxers all over the world? Certainly. However, is he elite, in the way the a lay person thinks of elite when considering boxing - "top of the game," "a true talent," "a beast," "p4p" etc. - no, he isn't. Is he a good opponent for Khan given Bradley isn't available? Yes, completely. Do I think Zab beats any of the top guys at 140? No. Yet, he has a puncher's chance in the first 5 or so rounds, which will make it somewhat interesting. I'm not a huge Khan fan, but I think Khan dominates this one.

Spinks was the man in the division when he beat him. You may not rate him but after the fight he was the uinfied, undisputed, lineal and Ring champ.

Zab is a legit threat at 140. He already holds a close win (disputed) over Matthyse, who proved against Alexander that he is certainly one of the top guys in the weight class. There are only two guys in the division I think are better than Zab, Bradley and Khan. I'd give him an excellent chance over Maidana, Alexander, Morales and Kotelnik. He'd get beat by Gurrero or Marquez if they moved up though, although he'd be a better opponent at 140 than Marquez has ever beat above super featherweight and would have a real chance of upsetting him imo.

No way zab beats maidana he would mentally unravel after he hits maidana with his best shots and maidana keeps comming. maidana ko 9 or 10