Was Muhammad Ali really the best

[Spicoli]

What I think happened,Liston got caught with a flash knockdown,and by that point was afraid of Ali,and decided the canvas felt comfortable in the second fight
He had a pathological fear of insane people (ironic I know) and he was convinced Ali was crazy by that point

I actually think it was a legit shot....Part physical and part mental....Ali was Listons Boogie-man

[El Kabong]

#1 I didn't start the talk of people "transcending boxing" which means he was doing things outside the ring and people think that too adds to his greatness. I merely said Joe Louis also did big things as well and then I pointed them out...it's not politics, it's outside the ring Civil Rights stuff erroneous to boxing and rating the Greatest Heavyweight of All-Time.

#2 I never said anything bad about Ali...I merely pointed out that his fans see him in such a light where he did no wrong. I'm not knocking him as a fighter or a Muslim or an African-American or anything else....I for the most part posted about Joe Louis and what JOE LOUIS did...if that makes Ali look bad, I'm sorry there's nothing I can do about it I wasn't even posting ABOUT Ali...but I suppose you missed that part

#3 I never said Ali wasn't a great fighter, I hardly ever posted about him, I merely defended my opinion and you attack me and call me a racist and ask if I am from the south and if I own a gun...that implies that I am a racist and I am not but I suppose you have your own opinion about that too, way to go, you're good at listening to reason.


I rate Joe Louis on his skill and success in the ring if you don't like it FUCK OFF...I rate Marciano on account of the fact he never lost....and I rate Ali because he beat great fighters and was a great fighter himself.....does that not appease you? Must I kiss the ring of Ali?? If I rated Ali second would you still try and call me out for focusing on politics? If I rated him 1b and Louis 1a would you still bitch at me Oh maybe if I rate him #1 just the way you want me to and the way that supports your views maybe then you wouldn't consider me a big meany who has his own thoughts and ideas separate from you


If you can't handle my rankings then I suggest you find some other thing to go and type about. My ratings aren't changing and I never said anything bad about Ali....only that his fans such as yourself can be delusional at times.

People that you will meet in life, sometimes have different views and different ways of looking at things, it's best that you learn now how to deal with such people. I will not be bullied by your scurrilous attacks on my character and my views on the Greatest heavyweight of all-time will not change, not for you, and not for anyone else.

[El Kabong]

POLITICS AGAIN - FURTHER MORE (CANT SEEM TO FIND POST AT MOMENT) YOU ACCUSED ALI OF BEING A RACIST. NOW IF THATS NOT POLTICS WHAT IS??

And I made no such post calling Ali a racist...at least not on this thread but now that you mention it. Ali's prefight antics and psychological warfare often times crossed the line in my opinion...I'm not African-American but I can imagine being called a Gorrilla or an Uncle Tom would really hurt.

So yes Ali made unfortunate comments about guys he fought and it hurt them, Joe Frazier carried the hurt from Ali's remarks for a LOOOOONG time and that is a sad reality.


...it still doesn't affect Ali as a fighter though

[jmbtandy]

What I think happened,Liston got caught with a flash knockdown,and by that point was afraid of Ali,and decided the canvas felt comfortable in the second fight
He had a pathological fear of insane people (ironic I know) and he was convinced Ali was crazy by that point

I actually think it was a legit shot....Part physical and part mental....Ali was Listons Boogie-man

Liston threw both fights in my opinion, he was a bully and as what usually happens when bullies don't get their own way they turn and run, i have seen Liston take some real bombs there is no way that shot knocked him out, and the shoulder injury in the first fight, coincidence anyone

[El Kabong]

Well yeah both those were Liston trying to find a way out that didn't involve him actually getting knocked out or hurt....Ali was going to win anyway, Liston just expidited the process. No shame in it for Ali only for Liston which is why I'm reluctant to put him on any top 10 heavyweight lists as well....doesn't mean I won't put him on there I am just wary of his lack of heart

[jmbtandy]

Well yeah both those were Liston trying to find a way out that didn't involve him actually getting knocked out or hurt....Ali was going to win anyway, Liston just expidited the process. No shame in it for Ali only for Liston which is why I'm reluctant to put him on any top 10 heavyweight lists as well....doesn't mean I won't put him on there I am just wary of his lack of heart

Agreed Liston wouldn't be in my top 10 for that reason also, it is a sport about heart and pride as well as all the other aspects, Liston lost it for me with those fights, quitting is the last resort in my book

[El Kabong]

....I have a similar opinion of Tyson as well what with the Holyfield ear biting incident, the trying to break Frans Botha's arm because he was losing, and the time where he didn't stop punching Lou Savarese even after the fight had been stopped. but Tyson being the youngest champ has him as a great fighter

[Spicoli]

What I think happened,Liston got caught with a flash knockdown,and by that point was afraid of Ali,and decided the canvas felt comfortable in the second fight
He had a pathological fear of insane people (ironic I know) and he was convinced Ali was crazy by that point

I actually think it was a legit shot....Part physical and part mental....Ali was Listons Boogie-man

Liston threw both fights in my opinion, he was a bully and as what usually happens when bullies don't get their own way they turn and run, i have seen Liston take some real bombs there is no way that shot knocked him out, and the shoulder injury in the first fight, coincidence anyone

I hear you man...This sport is about 75% mental...I think that shot opened the door that Liston was convinced he needed to walk through.Like I said,Part Physical...Part mental.It's a huge statement when Physically rendering a man unconcious but having a fighter 'feel' and give it up , convincing him that he has no chance of victory & having them conceed mentally/physically is something else.

[jmbtandy]

....I have a similar opinion of Tyson as well what with the Holyfield ear biting incident, the trying to break Frans Botha's arm because he was losing, and the time where he didn't stop punching Lou Savarese even after the fight had been stopped. but Tyson being the youngest champ has him as a great fighter

Tyson was always my favourite fighter up until that moment with Holyfield, in his prime he was awesome, but that was disgraceful. Apparently he struggled with his heart from an early age, he blasted out his first few amateur fights but he got a guy that stood up to him and he wanted to quit after the 2nd round, Teddy Atlas forced him to continue.

[donnydarkoIRL]

And how about Joe Louis' 69 (55 KO)-3

I'm a Louis fan, but Louis got KTFO.

[MIKAY]

Dude calm the fuck down just expressing my opinion its a free world, no matter what you say you cant change my opinion. imoa

I like the way you try to imply that everyone's trying to change your opinions when you know it isnt so. Your just trying to make yourself look good and others look like the bad guy, but what you dont realise people on here can READ and are not falling for your sad tactics.

Its a shame that somebody with so many posts and experience has to stoop down to these low antics. Having so much experience i thought it would be obviouse to you that people do not neccessaryly have to share your opinion and are allowed to critisize your views. If somebody disagrees with you it does not mean they are asking you to change but just expresing their view, which is sometimes called DISCUSSION.

During your life you will meet people who disagree with your views and there is nothing you can do about it, so its best for you learn now to cope with this. Like myself for example, i find your views at times stupid but there is nothing you can do about it and i will not be bullied or manipulated to change them.

[El Kabong]

What low antics have I stooped to?....I haven't called anyone a racist just because of their view of Ali AS A BOXER.....unlike yourself.

I don't imply that people are trying to change my opinion, it's obvious they are. They disagree with it and want to enlighten me to the greatness of Ali but the thing is I already realize Ali's greatness. I just don't think it's as great as what Louis and Marciano did....not because I care about any politics or race or religion or anything outside the ring, in fact it's ONLY about what happened in the ring.

Joe Louis owns the record for successful title defenses - 25

Rocky Marciano is the only heavyweight champion to retire unbeaten and holds the record for the longest undefeated streak for a heavyweight at 49-0-0

I didn't say anything bad about Ali, I didn't even mention him because he holds neither of those records which I think are important.

I'm not the one who made a big deal of my opinion, people started questioning me about it and I defended my view...is defending my view ok? Or must I endure being called a racist....which is ironic seeing how I have Joe Louis ahead of Marciano and if I was a racist then would I have Marciano or Dempsey or Tunney in the top spot

And it's: realize, obvious, necessarily, criticize, and expressing.

[MIKAY]

Lol, your living in a dream world if you think posters actually want to change your opinion.

1) First of all what make you think you are so important that people want to change your opinion, a little arragant if you ask me.

2) Your the one going on about "this is my opinion, its a free world etc" but as soon as somebody else expresses thier opinions you have a fit and claim they are bullying you to change yours. imoa

3) Like Daxx Khan said earlier, you are the one who starts of with "im not a racist but..." etc

4) " politics or race or religion or anything outside the ring, in fact it's ONLY about what happened in the ring " THEN WHY WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT JOE LOUIS BRINGING BLACK PEOPLE IN TO THE GAME OF GOLF ETC...

Sorry my spellings not up to your high standard, just seems like when someones loosing an argument they start nitpicking.

[Youngblood]

I go to sleep this thread is arguing. I wake up this thread is still going with ther same temperament.

It reminds me of my aunt and uncle who are in much need of marriage counselling.

[pacfan]

I'd say before this thing gets ugly, let's just say that he is the best...

clown on the ring, shake hands and move on.