Roy Jones: the boxing genius

[Markusdarkus]

Well you also gotta consider that by the time Jones was fighting Tarver and Johnson getting KOed, Leonard was making a comeback and getting his butt whooped by Camacho and Norris.
Interesting that both of these guys faded at about 35-36. Jones had more fights, but Leonard def fought some more dangerous opposition. I would not call Jones' lineup "easy" though. Seems like everyone thinks that Jones just skated by in the 90's. Hell no, he moved up in weight and fought everybody. I am sure i am not alone when I think that Jones has more than a sporting chance against Calzaghe. One thing you gotta remember about Jones, he NEVER came in any of his fights out of shape. And with Calz it's gonna go 12 rounds. So will Jones pull off the upset? I think not, but it will be close.

Jones is the right genius, and imo, top 5 p4p fighter of all time.

Leonard retired at 147lb then came back after 3YRS OFF and beat Marvin Hagler who was unbeaten for 11yrs at 160lbs. That is one of the greatest things in boxing history it would be like Jones taking 3yrs off then beating Lennox Lewis.

[rjj tszyu]

So you consider Jones a better fighter P4P than Hearns and Duran? he is good but if Jones was a Welterweight i couldnt see him beating Hearns or if he were a Lightweight lasting 5rds with Duran.

Yes I do. I think that Roy would KO Hearns, too much skill and would be able to dodge his big power shots all night long and he would DO a similar if not better job on Duran as Leonard did in the second fight when he QUIT.

P4P? a rather strange comment seen as a prime Leonard couldnt get away from Hearns jab and right hand. And a Lightweight Duran was an animal i think Roys lack of workrate and lack of chin would be exposed.

Like i said if Roy fought those guys at there best weight. A win over James Toney and a gift over Antonio Tarver doesnt cut it for me im affraid. And again Leonard did things that Jones did and it was always against cans he could get away with it.

First of all Roy had a different style to Leonard. Leonard used to take quite a few shots like he did against Hearns and Duran. Jones wouldn't do this no way, his counter punching and speed would have given Hearns fits. Also I like the way that you bring in the Tarver fight. That happened AFTER Roys venture to HW after which it was clear that Jones destroyed his own body by dropping back down to LHW. Why not use examples like Toney, Virgil Hill, Bernard Hopkins (28 years old), Mike McCallum and Reggie Johnson? At least Roy was in his prime and was still able bodied. To compare 2 men p4p, one who peaked at LHW to a man who peaked at Lightweight is impossible especially in this case because of obvious things such as Roys chin, that could not be counted beacuse he was being hit by a LHW when he was KO'd not a Lightweight and it wasn't until he was totally weight drained that we found out Roy had a weak chin (probably didn't before this). Duran was a great pressure fighter who was active throughout the whole fight and is without doubt one of the all time greats, but look at what Roy did to a good pressure fighter in Paz. I know he was nowhere near the quality of Duran but this is the only example of anything like Durans style I could think of that Roy has faced. Roy Jones is a better fighter P4P than Duran IMO and like Joe Tesatore said when talking about the fact he is sometimes criticised for his fights being too easy "well thats not his fault, he is just too good for his own good".

[rjj tszyu]

Well you also gotta consider that by the time Jones was fighting Tarver and Johnson getting KOed, Leonard was making a comeback and getting his butt whooped by Camacho and Norris.
Interesting that both of these guys faded at about 35-36. Jones had more fights, but Leonard def fought some more dangerous opposition. I would not call Jones' lineup "easy" though. Seems like everyone thinks that Jones just skated by in the 90's. Hell no, he moved up in weight and fought everybody. I am sure i am not alone when I think that Jones has more than a sporting chance against Calzaghe. One thing you gotta remember about Jones, he NEVER came in any of his fights out of shape. And with Calz it's gonna go 12 rounds. So will Jones pull off the upset? I think not, but it will be close.

Jones is the right genius, and imo, top 5 p4p fighter of all time.

Leonard retired at 147lb then came back after 3YRS OFF and beat Marvin Hagler who was unbeaten for 11yrs at 160lbs. That is one of the greatest things in boxing history it would be like Jones taking 3yrs off then beating Lennox Lewis.

How? Jones started as a 154lb fighter! Leonard started at 147, so it would be like Roy retiring and coming back and fighting a SMW. Lennox was a heavyweight you know?

[Markusdarkus]

Yes I do. I think that Roy would KO Hearns, too much skill and would be able to dodge his big power shots all night long and he would DO a similar if not better job on Duran as Leonard did in the second fight when he QUIT.

P4P? a rather strange comment seen as a prime Leonard couldnt get away from Hearns jab and right hand. And a Lightweight Duran was an animal i think Roys lack of workrate and lack of chin would be exposed.

Like i said if Roy fought those guys at there best weight. A win over James Toney and a gift over Antonio Tarver doesnt cut it for me im affraid. And again Leonard did things that Jones did and it was always against cans he could get away with it.

First of all Roy had a different style to Leonard. Leonard used to take quite a few shots like he did against Hearns and Duran. Jones wouldn't do this no way, his counter punching and speed would have given Hearns fits. Also I like the way that you bring in the Tarver fight. That happened AFTER Roys venture to HW after which it was clear that Jones destroyed his own body by dropping back down to LHW. Why not use examples like Toney, Virgil Hill, Bernard Hopkins (28 years old), Mike McCallum and Reggie Johnson? At least Roy was in his prime and was still able bodied. To compare 2 men p4p, one who peaked at LHW to a man who peaked at Lightweight is impossible especially in this case because of obvious things such as Roys chin, that could not be counted beacuse he was being hit by a LHW when he was KO'd not a Lightweight and it wasn't until he was totally weight drained that we found out Roy had a weak chin (probably didn't before this). Duran was a great pressure fighter who was active throughout the whole fight and is without doubt one of the all time greats, but look at what Roy did to a good pressure fighter in Paz. I know he was nowhere near the quality of Duran but this is the only example of anything like Durans style I could think of that Roy has faced. Roy Jones is a better fighter P4P than Duran IMO and like Joe Tesatore said when talking about the fact he is sometimes criticised for his fights being too easy "well thats not his fault, he is just too good for his own good".

Difference is Duran proved this by constantly fighting the best fighter his resume is superb Roys compared... well, thats all im gonna say.. well..

We will never know how good Roy was because he only really fought two elite fighters in Toney and Tarver and he lost one. Hopkins was a good win but Hopkins at 38 would obliterate Hopkins of 28.

Jones was a great fighter very skilled but against who? Roy is the best fighter in the last 15yrs imo but i thinl Sugar Ray Tommy Hears and Roberto Duran all beat him p4p.

[Markusdarkus]

Well you also gotta consider that by the time Jones was fighting Tarver and Johnson getting KOed, Leonard was making a comeback and getting his butt whooped by Camacho and Norris.
Interesting that both of these guys faded at about 35-36. Jones had more fights, but Leonard def fought some more dangerous opposition. I would not call Jones' lineup "easy" though. Seems like everyone thinks that Jones just skated by in the 90's. Hell no, he moved up in weight and fought everybody. I am sure i am not alone when I think that Jones has more than a sporting chance against Calzaghe. One thing you gotta remember about Jones, he NEVER came in any of his fights out of shape. And with Calz it's gonna go 12 rounds. So will Jones pull off the upset? I think not, but it will be close.

Jones is the right genius, and imo, top 5 p4p fighter of all time.

Leonard retired at 147lb then came back after 3YRS OFF and beat Marvin Hagler who was unbeaten for 11yrs at 160lbs. That is one of the greatest things in boxing history it would be like Jones taking 3yrs off then beating Lennox Lewis.

How? Jones started as a 154lb fighter! Leonard started at 147, so it would be like Roy retiring and coming back and fighting a SMW. Lennox was a heavyweight you know?

Leonard retired at 147lbs so he came back and stepped up two weight classes. Jones was at 175lbs then went up two divisions.

Roy wasnt going to retire at 154lbs was he? he is known as a lightheavyweight and was at that weight from his 20s.

[rjj tszyu]

Leonard retired at 147lb then came back after 3YRS OFF and beat Marvin Hagler who was unbeaten for 11yrs at 160lbs. That is one of the greatest things in boxing history it would be like Jones taking 3yrs off then beating Lennox Lewis.

How? Jones started as a 154lb fighter! Leonard started at 147, so it would be like Roy retiring and coming back and fighting a SMW. Lennox was a heavyweight you know?

Leonard retired at 147lbs so he came back and stepped up two weight classes. Jones was at 175lbs then went up two divisions.

Roy wasnt going to retire at 154lbs was he? he is known as a lightheavyweight and was at that weight from his 20s.

He only retired because of the detached retina. If Jones had got a detached retina at 154 yes he probably would have retired.

[GAME]

Roys best win ( on paper atleast ) was against James Toney or Bernard Hopkins yet even though he wasnt particluary sensational in either of those fights I think at his best Jones is possibly the greatest fighter ever.

[wesrman]

I think Jones is the best athlete of our era in any sport.

I think hes the most talented fighter of all time.

If it wasnt for Sugar Ray Robinsons crazy record, i would have Roy as the greatest of all time. He may be.

[bcollins]

I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.

Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.

Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.

I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.

"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.

Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.

Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.

Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.

You made a case? Funny, it sounded a lot like an opinion.

[Master]

Excellent write up Taeth. Roy is the greatest fighter I have ever seen, and would have been regarded as the greatest ever if he retired after Ruiz. However his legacy would look good with a victory over Galzaghe and not harmed.

[Taeth]

I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.

Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.

Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.

I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.

"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.

Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.

Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.

Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.

You rest your case? Wow that really convinces me that you have any idea about what your talking about.

What is the Tony- Tarver thing? He definitely hasn't been the same fighter comming back down.
He definitely was the best athlete ever, nobody had his combination of reflexes, speed, and power. He was nearly as fast as Leonard, Mosley, Taylor, etc were at their prime weight classes, but he was 3-5 weight classes above them. Of any of the fast guys except WW Robinson he had more power then all of them. He had the best reflexes we have ever seen, even Ali, Whitaker, Mayweather, Leonard couldn't compare to him.

Who did Roy Jones Jr fight who were respectable competition in any era? James Toney, Bernard Hopkins, Mike Maccallum, Virgill Hill, Clinton Woods, Julio Gonzalez, Reggie Johnson, Montell Griffin, Tony Thornton, and there are more, but my point is that Roy fought plenty of respectable competition especially James Toney who would have been right in the mix in any middleweight era, and Roy Jones Jr dominated all of them. Look how well Clinton Woods has done against Glen Johnson, and other guys now, and watch his fight against a past his prime Roy Jones Jr. who wasn't shot. He was completely owned. Same with Johnson, Hill, Johnson, Griffin in their second fight.

Think about it this way if you took away Leonard's great chin he would have been knocked out by Hearns, Hagler, Duran, and other guys as he went higher up.

If you took away Hagler's chin, he would have been KO'ed many times based on skill alone.
Same with DUran, Hearns was KO'ed his fair share.

Roy got KO'ed way above his natural weight class(LHW) only after he came way back down from HW. He looked tiny at LHW against guys like Hill, Telesco, Harmon, Glen Kelly, Gonzalez.

[Taeth]

Roys best win ( on paper atleast ) was against James Toney or Bernard Hopkins yet even though he wasnt particluary sensational in either of those fights I think at his best Jones is possibly the greatest fighter ever.

Ho can you say he wasn't sensational against James Toney are you fucking blind?

[Taeth]

I think Jones is the best athlete of our era in any sport.

I think hes the most talented fighter of all time.

If it wasnt for Sugar Ray Robinsons crazy record, i would have Roy as the greatest of all time. He may be.

You can't put him as one of the best fighters, you can't put him up there with Ali, Leonard, Armstrong, Pep, Robinson, etc. not because he wasn't as good as them, but because he didn't fight enough of the right caliber of opponents to deserve it. I think he is as good as them, but he won't be in their league because of who he fought and thats valid to a degree.

Also about the athletic thing again its like a hundred meter dash, you don't need to have the fastest guys around you to be the fastest yourself. Roy Jones Jr didn't need to be fighting Hagler, Hearns, etc to change the fact htat he was a better athlete then any of them. Your competition doesn't mean shit about what kind of athlete you are.

That being said, no boxer is the top athlete in the world, and have never been the best athletes ever like Michael Vick, Usain Bolt, Wilt Chamberlain, Bo Jackson, Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Deon Sanders, etc are far more athletic then Roy Jones Jr, and they would all be better at far more sports then Roy Jones Jr would be good at. He is the best boxing athlete ever, but that is not saying much. Boxing hasn't been overly about athleticism. ALi couldn't compare to Chamberlain, Leonard wouldn't have compared to Deon Sanders, Michael JOrdan wouldn't have compared to Randy Moss, Michael Vick, L. James, Tomlinson, R. Bush, etc. Or Bo Jackson either.

I mean Michael Jordan ran a 4.3 40, he had a 42 inch vertical jump.
Michael Vick 4.27 40, 40+ vertical jump, 550 pound bench press, 650 squat, etc,etc
Wilt Chamberlain: 500 pound bench press, low 10's 100 meter dash, competitive ,at the time, Olympic level high jump.
Bo Jackson: 225 pounds 4.18 40 yard dash great at football and baseball same with Deon Sanders who ran a 4.22 40
Usain Bolt: Best 100 and 200 meter runner ever, and he has only done 100 meters this year pretty much.

[amat]

While it's very hard to say, Roy took athleticism to an entirely different level. Really, he has to be one of the most athletic guys to step into the ring, his athleticism was his game. But back to my original point, even with their physical gifts fading, if he was one of the smartest fighters of all time he would have fought past that and still won meaningful fights like guys like Leonard, Hopkins, Toney, Holyfiels all were probably smarter fighters imo.

[rjj tszyu]

While it's very hard to say, Roy took athleticism to an entirely different level. Really, he has to be one of the most athletic guys to step into the ring, his athleticism was his game. But back to my original point, even with their physical gifts fading, if he was one of the smartest fighters of all time he would have fought past that and still won meaningful fights like guys like Leonard, Hopkins, Toney, Holyfiels all were probably smarter fighters imo.

The problem with a lot of boxers is that they only realise they've lost what they once had when it gets PROVED (like against Tarver and Johnson). And now Roy knows he is not the man he was he probably won't get KO'd again.