Two Questions

[killersheep]

I don't even bother with all time greats lists. Too many factors would have to go into it and I'm not gonna spend that much time on that exercise.

If I were to take on the endeavor I would have to break down into universal terms how good the opposition was, by that I mean I would have to have a system that quantified how good the heavyweights of the late 1800's were in comparison to today and every era in between. I would have to take into account activity (fights per year), accolades (titles, awards etc.). I would consider ATG's as the elite of the elite throughout history, and without a system to quantify that it's simply opinion much like a p4p list.

Certainly there are the obvious choices like Jimmy Wilde, SRR etc. but I don't have a good criteria to base it on, just opinion. The problem with counting titles in THIS era compared to prior eras is the fractionalization of the sanctioning bodies, they are so deluded they are really nothing more than marketing tools. While it's true that lineal titles carry more weight even the lineage comes into question with all of the weight class jumping nowadays.

[marbleheadmaui]

How do you define an "all-time great" and what is your criteria?

In your opinion how many have there been since John L. Sullivan?

I'll do my answers later. I want to see the gang's opinion.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

1. ALL Time great should have beaten many recognized and legitimate champions, Champions that have proven themselves by beating other legitimate champions.

Here's the hierarchy.

Lineal Champions weigh more
Ring Champions weigh more
Alphabet Champions weigh some
Vacant Alphabet weigh less


2. I am bad in history but i'll try

SRR, Ali, Foreman, Armstrong, Pep, Saddler, Greb, Louis, Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Hagler

Roy, Hopkins, Barrera, Morales, Floyd, Pacquiao, Ricardo Lopez, JCC, Wilfredo Gomez, Salvador Sanchez


and many more

Pretty darn good I think. I'd quibble and say alphabets don't count at all

[fan johnny]

The test of time!

[CutMeMick]

That I can think of in no particular order;

- Titles
- Reign
- Opposition
- Longevity

These of course stretch into other things Titles> Lineal> Ring...
Also Opposition> Era/Competion available> Champions he fought...

Again you can break a shit load of these into different one. But for me these 4 pretty much cover it all. The more you dig the more you'll cover.

[Mr140]

This is my list of top 30 atg this list is in order as well see what you guys think.
Muhammad Ali, Ray Robinson, Willey Pep, Roberto Duran, Henry Armstrong, Jimmy Wilde, Sam Langford, Benny Leonard, Jack Johnson, Ray Leonard, Gene Tunney, Joe Louis, Harry Greb, Floyde Mayweather, Lennox Lewis, Manny Pacquiao, Pernell Whitaker, Evander Holyfield, Larry Holmes, George Forman, Roy Jones Junior, Tommy Hearns, Marvin Hagler, Julio Cesar Chavez, Michael Spinks, Bernard Hopkins, Eddie Charles, Carlos Monzon, Sandy Saddler, Archie Moore

[marbleheadmaui]

This is my list of top 30 atg this list is in order as well see what you guys think.
Muhammad Ali, Ray Robinson, Willey Pep, Roberto Duran, Henry Armstrong, Jimmy Wilde, Sam Langford, Benny Leonard, Jack Johnson, Ray Leonard, Gene Tunney, Joe Louis, Harry Greb, Floyde Mayweather, Lennox Lewis, Manny Pacquiao, Pernell Whitaker, Evander Holyfield, Larry Holmes, George Forman, Roy Jones Junior, Tommy Hearns, Marvin Hagler, Julio Cesar Chavez, Michael Spinks, Bernard Hopkins, Eddie Charles, Carlos Monzon, Sandy Saddler, Archie Moore

Not too bad, but I think there are some obvious guys missing. Tony Canzoneri (three division undisputed champion), Bob Fitzsimmons (three division undisputed champion), Barney Ross (three division undisputed champion), Joe Gans (one of the top 3 135's of all time), Jimmy Wilde (the greatest Flyweight of all time), Eder Jofre (arguably the greatest 118 ever as well as 126 champion), Mickey Walker (undisputed 147 and 160 king and beat ranked heavyweights).

There isn't a right answer here. Criteria is all.

[IamInuit]

Yeah theirs only 1 or 2 Robinson fights in existence at 147 and yet he has been the best welter in history since he quit boxing.

[IamInuit]

How do you define an "all-time great" and what is your criteria?

In your opinion how many have there been since John L. Sullivan?

I'll do my answers later. I want to see the gang's opinion.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Great topic and great question.

The criteria I use and it’s by no means a fixed one is,

Actual performance in the squared circle.
Dominance
Outcomes and achievements
Historic comparison or how they would match up with others.

Post John L all time greats; well I suppose you will get more of my feelings on all time greats and what makes one from my list. Quite subjective as someone already mentioned. I’m going to forget some to be sure.

Since Sullivan and in somewhat chronological order and again this topic is about as
subjective as subjective can be. Others may differ and thats cool.

The man in your Av Jeffries even though he never had that many fights.
Dixon
Dempsey
Leonard
Walker
Greb
Gans
Langford
Villa
Wilde
Tunney
Carpentier
Firpo
Lynch
Levinsky
Kid Lewis
Britton
Tendler
Loughran
Wolgast
Rosenbloom
Kid Chocolate
Kid Berg
Armstrong
Conn
Pep
Ortiz
Ross
Baer
Zale
Arizmendi
Louis
Ambers
Escobar
Robinson
Walcott
Charles
Cerdan
Saddler
Gavilan
Maxim
Moore
Burley
Basilio
Elorde
Jofre
Patterson
Griffith
Ortiz C
Liston
Harada
Saldivar
Locche
Olivares
Buchanan
Monzon
Napoles
Foster
Duran
Cervantes
Benitez
Foreman
Ali
Gomez
Arguello
Hagler
Hearns
Leonard
Tyson
Rosario
Chavez
Spinks M
Fenech
Jones Jr. How he looks today is not relevant
Tito
Lewis
Calzaghe
Hopkins Still fighting but he’s an ATG.
Oscar
Mab? Still fighting
Morales? Ditto
Calderon Ditto he was pretty dominant but was stuck in the wrong weight class.

[Violent Demise]

How do you define an "all-time great" and what is your criteria?

In your opinion how many have there been since John L. Sullivan?

I'll do my answers later. I want to see the gang's opinion.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Great topic and great question.

The criteria I use and it’s by no means a fixed one is,

Actual performance in the squared circle.
Dominance
Outcomes and achievements
Historic comparison or how they would match up with others.

Post John L all time greats; well I suppose you will get more of my feelings on all time greats and what makes one from my list. Quite subjective as someone already mentioned. I’m going to forget some to be sure.

Since Sullivan and in somewhat chronological order and again this topic is about as
subjective as subjective can be. Others may differ and thats cool.

The man in your Av Jeffries even though he never had that many fights.
Dixon
Dempsey
Leonard
Walker
Greb
Gans
Langford
Villa
Wilde
Tunney
Carpentier
Firpo
Lynch
Levinsky
Kid Lewis
Britton
Tendler
Loughran
Wolgast
Rosenbloom
Kid Chocolate
Kid Berg
Armstrong
Conn
Pep
Ortiz
Ross
Baer
Zale
Arizmendi
Louis
Ambers
Escobar
Robinson
Walcott
Charles
Cerdan
Saddler
Gavilan
Maxim
Moore
Burley
Basilio
Elorde
Jofre
Patterson
Griffith
Ortiz C
Liston
Harada
Saldivar
Locche
Olivares
Buchanan
Monzon
Napoles
Foster
Duran
Cervantes
Benitez
Foreman
Ali
Gomez
Arguello
Hagler
Hearns
Leonard
Tyson
Rosario
Chavez
Spinks M
Fenech
Jones Jr. How he looks today is not relevant
Tito
Lewis
Calzaghe
Hopkins Still fighting but he’s an ATG.
Oscar
Mab? Still fighting
Morales? Ditto
Calderon Ditto he was pretty dominant but was stuck in the wrong weight class.

Your out of your mind if you consider them guys ATG's. I'm a huge Rosario fan. But I can't bring myself to call or consider him an ATG.

[IamInuit]

How do you define an "all-time great" and what is your criteria?

In your opinion how many have there been since John L. Sullivan?

I'll do my answers later. I want to see the gang's opinion.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Great topic and great question.

The criteria I use and it’s by no means a fixed one is,

Actual performance in the squared circle.
Dominance
Outcomes and achievements
Historic comparison or how they would match up with others.

Post John L all time greats; well I suppose you will get more of my feelings on all time greats and what makes one from my list. Quite subjective as someone already mentioned. I’m going to forget some to be sure.

Since Sullivan and in somewhat chronological order and again this topic is about as
subjective as subjective can be. Others may differ and thats cool.

The man in your Av Jeffries even though he never had that many fights.
Dixon
Dempsey
Leonard
Walker
Greb
Gans
Langford
Villa
Wilde
Tunney
Carpentier
Firpo
Lynch
Levinsky
Kid Lewis
Britton
Tendler
Loughran
Wolgast
Rosenbloom
Kid Chocolate
Kid Berg
Armstrong
Conn
Pep
Ortiz
Ross
Baer
Zale
Arizmendi
Louis
Ambers
Escobar
Robinson
Walcott
Charles
Cerdan
Saddler
Gavilan
Maxim
Moore
Burley
Basilio
Elorde
Jofre
Patterson
Griffith
Ortiz C
Liston
Harada
Saldivar
Locche
Olivares
Buchanan
Monzon
Napoles
Foster
Duran
Cervantes
Benitez
Foreman
Ali
Gomez
Arguello
Hagler
Hearns
Leonard
Tyson
Rosario
Chavez
Spinks M
Fenech
Jones Jr. How he looks today is not relevant
Tito
Lewis
Calzaghe
Hopkins Still fighting but he’s an ATG.
Oscar
Mab? Still fighting
Morales? Ditto
Calderon Ditto he was pretty dominant but was stuck in the wrong weight class.

Your out of your mind if you consider them guys ATG's. I'm a huge Rosario fan. But I can't bring myself to call or consider him an ATG.

Thats your opinion and you are welcome to it. I guess I'm out of my mind. Brilliant response.

[Violent Demise]

Thats your opinion and you are welcome to it. I guess I'm out of my mind. Brilliant response.

Some of them have been discussed in countless debates. I don't need to go over them again. So how about you be kind enough and tell what makes Jeff Fenech an ATG

[IamInuit]

Thats your opinion and you are welcome to it. I guess I'm out of my mind. Brilliant response.

Some of them have been discussed in countless debates. I don't need to go over them again. So how about you be kind enough and tell what makes Jeff Fenech an ATG

I said from the the start that this topic is subjective and people might disagree. So I'll just leave it at that. He's in the hall of fame and is a three division champion. Again like I said I made my list and never expected it to be perfect.

So who are the other ATG's since Sullivan iyo? Run down your list since 1879.

[marbleheadmaui]

How do you define an "all-time great" and what is your criteria?

In your opinion how many have there been since John L. Sullivan?

I'll do my answers later. I want to see the gang's opinion.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Great topic and great question.

The criteria I use and it’s by no means a fixed one is,

Actual performance in the squared circle.
Dominance
Outcomes and achievements
Historic comparison or how they would match up with others.

Post John L all time greats; well I suppose you will get more of my feelings on all time greats and what makes one from my list. Quite subjective as someone already mentioned. I’m going to forget some to be sure.

Since Sullivan and in somewhat chronological order and again this topic is about as
subjective as subjective can be. Others may differ and thats cool.

The man in your Av Jeffries even though he never had that many fights.
Dixon
Dempsey
Leonard
Walker
Greb
Gans
Langford
Villa
Wilde
Tunney
Carpentier
Firpo
Lynch
Levinsky
Kid Lewis
Britton
Tendler
Loughran
Wolgast
Rosenbloom
Kid Chocolate
Kid Berg
Armstrong
Conn
Pep
Ortiz
Ross
Baer
Zale
Arizmendi
Louis
Ambers
Escobar
Robinson
Walcott
Charles
Cerdan
Saddler
Gavilan
Maxim
Moore
Burley
Basilio
Elorde
Jofre
Patterson
Griffith
Ortiz C
Liston
Harada
Saldivar
Locche
Olivares
Buchanan
Monzon
Napoles
Foster
Duran
Cervantes
Benitez
Foreman
Ali
Gomez
Arguello
Hagler
Hearns
Leonard
Tyson
Rosario
Chavez
Spinks M
Fenech
Jones Jr. How he looks today is not relevant
Tito
Lewis
Calzaghe
Hopkins Still fighting but he’s an ATG.
Oscar
Mab? Still fighting
Morales? Ditto
Calderon Ditto he was pretty dominant but was stuck in the wrong weight class.

Nicely done! I'd quibble with Carpentier, Calderon, Calzaghe, Fenech, Rosario, Maxim, Levinksy and Firpo and I wonder if you didn't overlook Canzoneri, Attell, the other Dempsey, McGovern and a few others. But that was one impressive effort!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IamInuit]

How do you define an "all-time great" and what is your criteria?

In your opinion how many have there been since John L. Sullivan?

I'll do my answers later. I want to see the gang's opinion.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Great topic and great question.

The criteria I use and it’s by no means a fixed one is,

Actual performance in the squared circle.
Dominance
Outcomes and achievements
Historic comparison or how they would match up with others.

Post John L all time greats; well I suppose you will get more of my feelings on all time greats and what makes one from my list. Quite subjective as someone already mentioned. I’m going to forget some to be sure.

Since Sullivan and in somewhat chronological order and again this topic is about as
subjective as subjective can be. Others may differ and thats cool.

The man in your Av Jeffries even though he never had that many fights.
Dixon
Dempsey
Leonard
Walker
Greb
Gans
Langford
Villa
Wilde
Tunney
Carpentier
Firpo
Lynch
Levinsky
Kid Lewis
Britton
Tendler
Loughran
Wolgast
Rosenbloom
Kid Chocolate
Kid Berg
Armstrong
Conn
Pep
Ortiz
Ross
Baer
Zale
Arizmendi
Louis
Ambers
Escobar
Robinson
Walcott
Charles
Cerdan
Saddler
Gavilan
Maxim
Moore
Burley
Basilio
Elorde
Jofre
Patterson
Griffith
Ortiz C
Liston
Harada
Saldivar
Locche
Olivares
Buchanan
Monzon
Napoles
Foster
Duran
Cervantes
Benitez
Foreman
Ali
Gomez
Arguello
Hagler
Hearns
Leonard
Tyson
Rosario
Chavez
Spinks M
Fenech
Jones Jr. How he looks today is not relevant
Tito
Lewis
Calzaghe
Hopkins Still fighting but he’s an ATG.
Oscar
Mab? Still fighting
Morales? Ditto
Calderon Ditto he was pretty dominant but was stuck in the wrong weight class.

Nicely done! I'd quibble with Carpentier, Calderon, Calzaghe, Fenech, Rosario, Maxim, Levinksy and Firpo and I wonder if you didn't overlook Canzoneri, Attell, the other Dempsey, McGovern and a few others. But that was one impressive effort!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats cool and I did overlook them and like I said its really subjective. I second guessed myself several times while compiling the list.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Jaz, you said you'd put light-welters with welterweights but what about super-lightweights?