A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!

[Max Power]

Ray Robinson... The greatest record of any boxer of all time. The all time p4p king! Credited with producing the greatest body of work.

A couple hundred fights, mostly wins but a couple dozen losses as well.

I'm not going to knock the record, it is what it is but I would like to point out 3 points about Ray often "swept under the rug".

1/ He lost to some pretty shit opponents

2/ His record is padded beyond measure with so many bums it's difficult to keep count.

3/ His film reveals the truth. His defence was wide open and although he looks impressive against his opponents he might not be such the thrashing machine were he to face modern comp.

If Ray struggled with a lummox like Ray LaMotta, how would he cope with a highly trained young machine such as Saul Canelo Alverez? Or Gennady Golovkin?

Let me tell you a little secret, nobody can have 100+ fights, let alone 200+ against "good quality" opponents. The damage accumulated is too great and they would reach bust well before the end. Whenever you see a figure like this on old timers records you know they were padding and a quick analysis reveals they are. It's one of the things that seperates modern methods from olden days ones.

Evander Holyfield was once asked to sit for an interview about boxing and its history and he was scripted to say that Ali and other greats were much tougher in their day and so forth. Evander was set to deliver his speech but decided to buck the authority and vented his own thoughts instead, to the disgust of the host. He told that the modern boxer does not have to fight as often anymore yet through more calculated training and recovery they are doubly effective. He told how he had taken what was there in the past and built upon it and was better than all who came before him.

I am inclined to agree with Evander. These old guys going from fight to fight were tough as nails but they were always in a state of depletion and never fully recovered from a fight before they were thrust into the next one. They had not the faintest idea how a boxer should properly prepare themselves. They had more in common with thugs than with athletes.

The argument put forth in my last article seems to have boiled down to an issue of weight and size. That modern HW's are effective due to strength mainly but the ancient warriors had greater skills.

Well I put forth the argument that on film, Ray Robinson looks wide open in defence, telegraphed his shots badly for an opponent of Mayweather and hence would be looking down the barrel of a wide UD loss here. Size and weight play no role here. Mayweather would simply out-skill SRR and make him look completely stupid!

Think not? I would like to know HOW Robinson could beat Mayweather? Because the evidence points strongly towards the other conclusion. And since you would be the one making the seemingly outrageous claim that a fighter from 70 years ago could beat the current p4p champ, a defensive master unheard of in his day, the burden of proof is on you!

So much for the P4P argument against the modern boxers!

[powerpuncher]

you are really starting to reach now arent you? the HW division just wasnt enough for you huh?

[chris6878]

you should create a blog so you can post your foolishness.

Now what happens if ray had the same training modalities that todays modern fighters have? You think ray would fight exactly how they fought way back then.

Whats next, A look at bruce lee vs jet li.

[SugarBoxing]

interesting read, though I would ask for images or animated gifs to back it up
I could help you with that, I mean making gifs and such , if you'd be interested in blogging at my website

[AdamGB]

Again, if Robinson lived in this area... He'd have the extra half a century of sports science, nutrition, PEDs and sporting history/experience to learn from.

You can only judge a guy relative to the context of their area.

Like I've already said...

[greynotsoold]

Who are the 'pretty shit' opponents that Robinson lost to? Who is Ray LaMotta? Jake LaMotta was a pretty good fighter, a guy that went out of his way to fight the best guys around.
More thugs than athletes? My gracious...those guys fought a lot because that was how you make a living, you work at your trade. That is also how you get good at something, and it shows.
For the most part, the skill level in modern boxing is horrible. Guys take turns punching- you don't see much slipping and countering, the bobbing and weaving. No class, for the most part.

[jon09]

Ray Robinson is the Greatest ever. He never ducked anyone in his era and Lamotta was a middleweight fighting a welterweight. Also not only did Ray avenge the loss he fought a tune up fight all in a 3 week span. Most of his losses were when he was in his twilight years. And out of 200 fights he was knocked out once by heat exhaustion. The sad part is that there are only a few dozen of his fights recorded and we will never see how truly great he was.

[chris6878]

them combos was vicious

[Andre]

Again, if Robinson lived in this area... He'd have the extra half a century of sports science, nutrition, PEDs and sporting history/experience to learn from.

You can only judge a guy relative to the context of their area.

Like I've already said...

True and we now know that balance and power stems from the big toe so even the old flat soled leather high boots dipped in a chalk tray each round for some grip messed with that era.
Imagine them in modern shoes with no slippery advertizing on the canvas plus the modern diet, training and study of techniques we have.
Add that to the old work ethic and real hunger and you'd have some all round machines frequenting the ring.
If you got the best of both worlds you'd have dudes with thin old gloves used to going 20 rounds and before that up to 103 one minute rounds without gloves and people not being able to recognize the fighters after a few rounds, thats a tough setting.
How many modern boxers could handle stepping back to any of that?.
Different games different rules now, padded gloves, less rounds, ring size agreements, better boots, you name it,we got it, so now you can diversify and survive in there a number of ways. I think it works both ways though,there'd be some massive shocks in store for a modern fighter going back in time and trying to survive under their rules.
On the other side of the coin it would be just as hard for old school to come forward in time and survive what its become too although with the modern gloves and less rounds and better ring control by the refs I think they'd be still standing but maybe frustrated and outpointed or disqualified.
Go the other way though and I think it could get messy for most modern boxers in old gloves,longer rounds with more fouls allowed on the inside and those crushing outer wrist bone shots that were ignored in those old gloves. If anyone had a hope it would be Floyd though,he has a way of dissolving the oppositions power in close while gaining position.

[Max Power]

Andre the adjustments each would have to make would of course ask many questions of the fighters involved, that complicates things..

On the issue regarding if previous fighters were to have had the same advancements and experiences of more modern generation ones would be as good if not better than modern fighters are today by virtue of the fact they came up tougher and with a greater work ethic- I don't really have an issue with that assumption. I'm only comparing how they in fact were as opposed to how they would have been... IF.

A couple of things to consider though...

1/Just because they came up tougher does not necessarily mean they would be more focussed on boxing. It could be argued that a harsher and more turbulent life might destroy focus maybe. If you look at the great number of fighters from the former Soviet Union and Eastern BLOC countries who have made it to the top these days- they come from an extremely oppressive and harsh regime just like the former American one which raised those greats of the past with the added distinction though that the Soviet regime had an intensive boxing program which forged their fighters like a factory from the time they could walk. It shows in the statistics as well in that the Eastern BLOC has bested the Western World overall in the Olympics going back a long time.

2/To say that old timers had better work ethic is an unproven assumption to begin with. Take none other than Mayweather for example.. Or Wladimir Klitschko. Both of them state their cases for being dominant champions due to their "hard work.. and dedication". Who is to say that these guys don't work as hard as say Rocky Marciano? Or Sugar Robinson? I would think they'd work just as hard at their craft.

3/If you take the olden days fighters, give them modern diets, training, sparring partners, medicine, pharmaceuticals, make them taller and heftier or what not then they would have different balances and have to fight different game. They would not even BE the same boxers.

Again Andre, I'm not denying that what your saying can't be true, it might! But it could also be akin to assuming that former greats were intrinsically better which is disputable.