Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition

[Beanflicker]

I think history will look more favourably on Pac though.

I'm not sure what would make anyone think that.

I don't see any real difference in level of opposition, and nobody has really explained to me why Pac's opposition was any better.

Floyd has surpassed Pac in every category you could think of, besides likeability.

If both retired tomorrow, we've seen Pac beaten and/or knocked out in every stage of his career, whereas Floyd has never lost. Floyd was the bigger star, the bigger draw, made a lot more money and has never had a true equal in the ring.

Pac beat up a prime Barrera and beat (and lost to) a Morales that was close to the end of his rope. That puts him head and shoulders above Floyd? I just can't see it.

[mikeeod]

JMM didn't magically grow into ww, he matured and put muscle on to grow into the weight. Watch his fight vs Floyd n then last fight vs Manny. Night n day difference in size and density. Add to the fact that Floyd didn't meet the contractual weight by a couple of pounds, n it was a couple of guys from two different weight classes fighting. I always have said the Manny is a smaller man than Floyd. Much smaller. Floyd is a big 140 pounder and Manny is a 135 pounder. He started as a flyweight, and even though he was young he is only like 5'5" or 5'6".

JMM physically matured... at 37? Come on, man. And like I said, the JMM who fought Floyd weighed in the exact same as the JMM who fought Pac two years later: 142lbs (143lbs for the 4th Pac fight), so I have no idea what you're talking about in terms of a "night and day" size difference.

Look at the density of his build in both fights. He was much larger in the Manny fight. Not even debatable. And yes, once u stop running and making a conscious effort to keep ur weight down, u can actually fill out and mature into a larger, more muscular person. Weight training and different training habits benefitted JMM carrying the extra weight.

[Beanflicker]

Look at the density of his build in both fights. He was much larger in the Manny fight. Not even debatable. And yes, once u stop running and making a conscious effort to keep ur weight down, u can actually fill out and mature into a larger, more muscular person. Weight training and different training habits benefitted JMM carrying the extra weight.

There's no doubt that he was leaner and more cut in the Manny fights, but to say that it was night and day, or that it was somehow significant I think is really grasping at straws.





Here's the "night and day", "MUCH BIGGER" difference you're talking about.

Definitely more cut in the Manny pics, but you're going to tell me that that's a completely different guy? Come on dude.

[mikeeod]

I think history will look more favourably on Pac though.

I'm not sure what would make anyone think that.

I don't see any real difference in level of opposition, and nobody has really explained to me why Pac's opposition was any better.

Floyd has surpassed Pac in every category you could think of, besides likeability.

If both retired tomorrow, we've seen Pac beaten and/or knocked out in every stage of his career, whereas Floyd has never lost. Floyd was the bigger star, the bigger draw, made a lot more money and has never had a true equal in the ring.

Pac beat up a prime Barrera and beat (and lost to) a Morales that was close to the end of his rope. That puts him head and shoulders above Floyd? I just can't see it.

I already went down the list buddy. Floyd's top wins r Chico, Hatton and Castillo. All three were prime, Chico n Hatton P4P, Castillo wasn't ranked P4P when they fought and he should have won the first fight vs Floyd. So, Manny has taken on better competition at every stage of his career, and when u do that u end up with losses. I'm writing this on my phone so when I get home tonight I will gladly write a more inclusive and detailed break down. Bottom Line: Floyd fought two guys ranked P4P at the time he fought them. Manny fought multiple guys who I listed ranked when he fought them. He also fought much bigger men who were favorites to beat him at the time of the fight. If u can't see it, nothing is going to change ur mind. U just want to feel Floyd fought better guys.

[Beanz]

I think in the OP you are being totally unfair to Manny. You have to really stretch to so dismiss his opposition so readily and then minimise his achievements. Your are weighting your response to compensate for what you think is a slight against Floyd.

[Beanflicker]

I think in the OP you are being totally unfair to Manny. You have to really stretch to so dismiss his opposition so readily and then minimise his achievements.

Fair enough, what in particular was unfair in what I said?

[Beanflicker]

I'm writing this on my phone so when I get home tonight I will gladly write a more inclusive and detailed break down. Bottom Line: Floyd fought two guys ranked P4P at the time he fought them. Manny fought multiple guys who I listed ranked when he fought them. He also fought much bigger men who were favorites to beat him at the time of the fight.

Well I look forward to your breakdown.

I think you're wrong that Floyd only fought two guys ranked p4p at the time he fought them. I think you might be surprised.

People dog Floyd for fighting Mosley, but did you know that he was the #2 ranked WW at the time and the #3 ranked p4p of the time by Ring magazine (behind only Pac and Floyd)?

The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 2009 - BoxRec

[mikeeod]

I'm writing this on my phone so when I get home tonight I will gladly write a more inclusive and detailed break down. Bottom Line: Floyd fought two guys ranked P4P at the time he fought them. Manny fought multiple guys who I listed ranked when he fought them. He also fought much bigger men who were favorites to beat him at the time of the fight.

Well I look forward to your breakdown.

I think you're wrong that Floyd only fought two guys ranked p4p at the time he fought them. I think you might be surprised.

People dog Floyd for fighting Mosley, but did you know that he was the #2 ranked WW at the time and the #3 ranked p4p of the time by Ring magazine (behind only Pac and Floyd)?

The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 2009 - BoxRec

Did not remember that Shane was ranked P4P #3 at that time, good catch! Still, Even including Shane who is a HOFer, Manny beat and fought more top ranked guys during their prime. I will break it down later. Good catch, I tip my hat to u.

[Fenster]

I think history will look more favourably on Pac though.

Floyd was the bigger star, the bigger draw, made a lot more money and has never had a true equal in the ring.

You started the thread by discussing the quality of their opponents, at the time they faced them, but are now making the point that Floyd is superior because he made more money (lol).

Leonard was a bigger star, bigger draw and made more money than Duran but he's not rated higher than him on any serious historian/fan all-time great list.

[Beanz]

I think in the OP you are being totally unfair to Manny. You have to really stretch to so dismiss his opposition so readily and then minimise his achievements.

Fair enough, what in particular was unfair in what I said?

The term "Floyd leftover" is highly pejorative. He did not finish them or make the job any easier for Manny. In many cases Manny did what Floyd could not.

[Beanflicker]

You started the thread by discussing the quality of their opponents, at the time they faced them, but are now making the point that Floyd is superior because he made more money (lol).

Leonard was a bigger star, bigger draw and made more money than Duran but he's not rated higher than him on any serious historian/fan all-time great list.

No, that was a separate discussion that we were having that diverted from the main topic. If you want to really talk about making irrelevant points, we could talk about how I started a thread about who faced a higher quality of opposition, to which you responded by talking about who did better against the common opponents they faced (lol).

Leonard for sure was a bigger fighter than Duran and deserved to be ranked higher.

[Beanflicker]

I think in the OP you are being totally unfair to Manny. You have to really stretch to so dismiss his opposition so readily and then minimise his achievements.

Fair enough, what in particular was unfair in what I said?

The term "Floyd leftover" is highly pejorative. He did not finish them or make the job any easier for Manny. In many cases Manny did what Floyd could not.

Well what I meant by "leftovers" is that Floyd beat them first. The significance of a win against a certain fighter varies on when the win happened in that fighter's career: a win over Ali in 1971 means more than Ali in 1979, ect.

So when I say that Hatton is a Floyd leftover, it's not to say that a win over Hatton is meaningless, but for FLoyd to beat a 43-0 Hatton at the pinnacle of his career means more than Pac's win over a Ricky Hatton who had been beaten and had been shuffling around with different trainers and at the end of his rope.

Great win, but Floyd was there first.

[Beanz]

Without Cortez or blinkers on though Mannys win is Far more impressive. By a country mile. Scared the krap out of me. Even though against Floyd was his first KO I wasn't worried for his welfare like against Manny.

[ruthless rocco]

Manny had a HOF career before he even got to Floyd's competition. When it comes to common opponents, whatever the excuses, Manny beat them in a more emphatic manner.

Floyd wins

Oscar - SD
Marquez - UD
Shane - UD
Hatton - TKO 10
Cotto - UD


Manny wins

Oscar - TKO 8
Marquez - PTS x 2
Shane - UD
Hatton - KO 2
Cotto - TKO 12

Take out Marquez and Manny has barely lost a round against these guys.

What if we take steroids and other PEDs out of the equation...?

[Beanz]

Manny had a HOF career before he even got to Floyd's competition. When it comes to common opponents, whatever the excuses, Manny beat them in a more emphatic manner.

Floyd wins

Oscar - SD
Marquez - UD
Shane - UD
Hatton - TKO 10
Cotto - UD


Manny wins

Oscar - TKO 8
Marquez - PTS x 2
Shane - UD
Hatton - KO 2
Cotto - TKO 12

Take out Marquez and Manny has barely lost a round against these guys.

What if we take steroids and other PEDs out of the equation...?

Don't think you should hold Floyds PED use against him