Looking for the roots of terrorism

[ryanman]

"France has about 7.5% Muslims and [they make] up to 60–75% of the prison population. It’s a very similar situation to black youth in the United States."


Yuuuup here we go with the White Guilt , typical lefty drivel.

He was quite obviously talking about proportional representation, not justification. The very next sentence that you conveniently omitted says

" The difference is here’s an ideology that appeals to them "

So he is not making the lazy comparison that you accuse him of. It's extremely frustrating that so many people, even in this thread, are so conditioned in their own thinking that they are seemingly uninterested in facts or insights gained by someone who is actively trying to find some answers.

This is an academic with posts in both France and America, not a politician with some axe to grind. It's not "White Guilt" or "Lefty Drivel". He is hardly excusing the behaviour of people when he call them "low lifes" and "bad guys" is he?

The conclusions he draws are not the obvious ones and it's uncomfortable reading I get that. He is not toeing the government lie that they are highly trained commando like units, he is pointing out the unpredictable and often random nature of such a threat. These are often very stupid ignorant people, something he confirms when he relays that fact that many would rather shoot him than answer his questions.

But no let's not bother reading the report or examining tired, pattern based predicatable ways of thinking. Lets accuse him of having "an agenda" because then we can carry on thinking in the same comfy, flawed way.

I know many people innately distrust academics ( particularly when evidence they use goes against their own belief system) and love to hang on to simple ideas, but there is little point discussing anything if all you want to do is have your own opinion verified and have no room to contemplate new ways of thinking about a problem.

Sorry Beanz, you won't get a discussion on the article. The word 'terrorism' is in the subject line. That means the thread is about repeating thoughts on 'Terrorism'. I can already predict what several other people are likely to be in here saying shortly. None of which will be a discussion of any of the points raised. It's anti-intellectualism.

The fact that he refers to them as 'bad-guys' and 'low-lifes' and (rightly) points out that these guys are mostly idiots won't make a difference.

[ryanman]

I haven't read the article as I haven't read anything except the previous posts yet, but my immediate impressions are somewhat in line with those of Master. Terrorism seldom emerges from a vacuum and most typically is the result of oppression and not being listened to. Participants in the American revolution would today be labelled extremists, but of course they were not so to any man that craves freedom from tyranny. The same here with statues dedicated to the proud patriots who resisted Japanese occupation. They too were called terrorists, but of course hindsight tells us very clearly that they were freedom fighters resisting empire and occupation. You can apply the same logic to dozens of conflicts in times past. Most empires are notorious occupiers of stolen lands and thus to them everyone who resists is an extremist or a terrorist.

But it is also more nuanced.
For instance the foreign policy often cited. Well, I'd say that South and Central America have suffered more than the Middle East from western governments. Yet there isn't the same issue with terrorists groups from there.

Also there are Islamist groups with no anti-west agenda. All they want is the west to let them carry on their (evil) business.

Even among those that cite anti-west motivations the truth is not so clear. It is often just a useful soundbite for recruitment of largely ignorant people.
The anti-west Jihadi groups actions have no real logic. If you were to sit with them and try to logically follow their arguments, and they were to answer your questions, they would soon get to point of circular non-rational arguments. The thing is they won't let you get to that point.
One of the biggest recruitment tools of terrorists is ignorance.

[El Kabong]

#1 "The difference is here’s an ideology that appeals to them" ...a quote which could be used to describe why someone might join Al Qaeda but if you think about it, it's also something someone might say for a black person joining the Crips or Bloods.


#2 "This is an academic" ....indeed, a LEFTY, universities are overrun with them!

#3 "The best predictors turn out to be things like who your friends are and whether you belong to some action group." .....like an Al Qaeda terrorist cell

[IamInuit]

but as far as origins go its why God in the old Testament created different languages at the towers of Babylon. If we go back before that when grunts were a language, I'd bet terrorism was routinely practiced by rivals I think as far as modern times go its roots are religion but now its just psychopaths using religion as a back drop.

I'm the outsider here I guess..
I've always fancied the first people on earth communicated with thought- vocal communications formed once our 100% brain usage crept down to a meager 6%.--the Bible IMO is folklore. Some is factual some is figurative..

The number of the beast=6 about what we use-- which equates us with the beast of the field.

But I am even more of an outsider thinking that Osama guy was doin' this shit to people in regions like the Sudan years ago in the 1990's...not a peep from the press.

Hits "certain" countries...now we gotta do something about it. Kinda like not worrying about bedbugs when its at the Micro motel..

Now those who went there are @ Holiday inn, Ramada, Raddisson, now the whole damn hotel industry is carrying bedbugs because it wasn't worthy of stopping it when it was hitting their competitors...Some shit really is too late to remedy.

Oh for sure I, that was just a quick response. I don't actually believe God showed up and dealt out languages anymore than I believe evolution did. We communicated a lot longer using strictly pheromones and body language then any other communication.

Perhaps terrorism started when we jumped out of the tree and sprang into the beginnings of the self awareness we feel today. I think all of these things have been happening throughout the centuries in one form or another but the coverage is different. This digital/video/instant on the second world is a game changer.

I just watched a doc on Apple and their slave shops. One has to wonder if we can even adequately define terrorism.

[Beanz]

#1 "The difference is here’s an ideology that appeals to them" ...a quote which could be used to describe why someone might join Al Qaeda but if you think about it, it's also something someone might say for a black person joining the Crips or Bloods.


#2 "This is an academic" ....indeed, a LEFTY, universities are overrun with them!

#3 "The best predictors turn out to be things like who your friends are and whether you belong to some action group." .....like an Al Qaeda terrorist cell

My reply was not meant just for you but seeing as you are willing to engage rationally

1. Yes there are indeed similarities there, but Jimmy and Timmy's feelings of disenfranchisement were not good reasons to join the Karazy Kripples any more than those westerners who end up becoming vehment anti-western fanatics. He is not trying to make a simple equation to explain things.


2. I think it is only in your head that academic and Lefty are interchangeable Lyle In Europe quite the opposite is often true, with Academics seen as conservative right wing members of the establishment.


3. He tries to make clear the independent nature of individuals and small groups and disavow us of the notion of cells. That is a military allegory that makes us feel there are similar military rules of engagement, and there are not. They are criminal and psychopathic.

[Kirkland Laing]

If you want to know what they're angry about you could try asking the fucking terrorists, or even just listen to what they say. Other than the gys upset about cartoons in every single case it's because of us interfering in their countries (9/11 guys) Israel killing people in neighbouring countries/Palestinians (9/11 and most terrorist attacks previous to that), us invading Afghanistan/Iraq and killing hundreds of thousands ( 99.something percent of attacks since 2001.) Case in point. The people giving interviews to bystanders after they knifed that British soldier. And so on.

[El Kabong]

My reply was not meant just for you but seeing as you are willing to engage rationally

1. Yes there are indeed similarities there, but Jimmy and Timmy's feelings of disenfranchisement were not good reasons to join the Karazy Kripples any more than those westerners who end up becoming vehment anti-western fanatics. He is not trying to make a simple equation to explain things.


2. I think it is only in your head that academic and Lefty are interchangeable Lyle In Europe quite the opposite is often true, with Academics seen as conservative right wing members of the establishment.


3. He tries to make clear the independent nature of individuals and small groups and disavow us of the notion of cells. That is a military allegory that makes us feel there are similar military rules of engagement, and there are not. They are criminal and psychopathic.

1. That's fine, but again the problem is that the idiots who want to join Al Qaeda or "The Karazy Kripples" aren't assimilating into society for whatever reason. The SAD part is these people aren't retards, they aren't sociopaths in the psychological sense of the word (which the author states plain as day), they are just filled to the brim with resentment of Western culture and values which I'm sorry if you don't like those things then leave the west. leave the US, leave the UK, go to The Islamic State, go to another country nobody is holding you hostage in the west. I am certain SOME of the jihadis and gangsters are certifiably insane but it would be just a portion of them.

2. Is it? Again, left and right are very different in England as opposed to America. In America nearly 95% of the professors and graduate assistants every University is socialist/communist/anarchist. For example Bill Ayers of The Weather Underground is a professor at the University of Chicago...the man bombed government offices for fucks sake, but in Academia he's a hero, he's revered. Timothy Leary, Mr. "Turn On, Tune In, Drop Out" was a Professor. The Unabomber Ted Kaczynski was a professor...these guys are pretty much so far left they were mentally unstable and the sad thing is....in Academia they are a dime a dozen!

3. Criminal eh? You want to see the courts handle this rather than the armed forces? Which will then see our system attacked not on a national scale, but on a much harder to control LOCAL scale. This would mean enhanced powers for local authorities which would lead to more corruption (surely we've seen it nationally with who the government has chosen to spy on recently Sharyl Attkinson).

If you want to know what they're angry about you could try asking the fucking terrorists, or even just listen to what they say. Other than the gys upset about cartoons in every single case it's because of us interfering in their countries (9/11 guys) Israel killing people in neighbouring countries/Palestinians (9/11 and most terrorist attacks previous to that), us invading Afghanistan/Iraq and killing hundreds of thousands ( 99.something percent of attacks since 2001.) Case in point. The people giving interviews to bystanders after they knifed that British soldier. And so on.

So if Israel just disappeared then much of this terrorism would cease? Well great, how about YOU hand out some yellow stars to the Jews so we can round them up and gas them later.

As for US intervention, we're damned if we DO (Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Somalia) and we're damned if we DON'T (East Timor, Chechnya). Bin Laden Mr. Jihad himself was a fucking hypocrite of the highest order "The US arms Israel, whine, cry" with NOOOOO fucking mention of how the US helped his ass out against the Commies in the 80's NOR about how the US again helped his ass out against the fucking Serbs in Bosnia!

The Mujihadeen/Jihadi's what have you aren't fucking known for their rational thought processes. They hate us because they envy us plain and simple. They think they have oil they should make the rules, but they are very tribal and fight amongst themselves more than they attack the West shit look at The Islamic State, they aren't attacking the United States, I'm sure they would if they could but right now they are attacking geopolitical nation states Syria and Iraq in the attempts to erase borders and form their own nation state.

[Andre]

3. He tries to make clear the independent nature of individuals and small groups and disavow us of the notion of cells. That is a military allegory that makes us feel there are similar military rules of engagement, and there are not. They are criminal and psychopathic.

There are both though! We have home grown terrorists and we have home grown fighters who head back to their birth places to fight for Allah and Mohammad.

Some work single for sure, like that fuckwit in Sydney who killed in the cafe recently. But many also eventually are organized into cells too its a fact,911 was a group of men who broke into 3 organized cells on a timed hit, how can it be seen any other way? It occurs both ways so why only look one way at it I dont really get it?

Unless maybe we are on total crossed purposes here mate and I think you might be talking about and are trying to stem the real dumb from within our western societies getting ideas and heading for the Mosques and disrupting the innocent families there -young angry men eventually going in with the old style like the shaved heads and bother boots of old routine to rout them out in their evil dopey mindless fucking way.Those types of people who get dumbed down enough to attack Muslim women on trains etc.
That has to be your thoughts here?

There are young -------- (you fill in the blanks call em what you like, see what you come up with as a term Id be very interested) men leaving our shores to go and fight against our armies overseas.Thats a fact happened in the Afgan conflict to a minor degree now in Syria ina larger degree, we cant stop them returning back to their birth home to fight for Allah and Mohammads cause of Jihad;its happening,it is an occurrence.
They are not single criminals and physcopaths.

Where they form into groups was the main item and the main question raised here in this journos works.Not if they form into groups.

Im not against him or his works or you being 100% on his side or he fact he so called educated that is a swipe.
Im all for you protecting innocent Muslims who I agree are 97% clear, but why aren't you all for routing out the small percentage that hides among them?

I cant think of any answer for that question, except "they are not hiding in amongst their own religion". I await to stand corrected on that view.

The fundamentalist groups these lads aim at joining have recently stated to these would be soldiers of Allah and Mohammad the last prophet; "Stay in your countries there and spill blood there". Sure some fuckwits will singly get up and do exactly that. Some will be in pairs some in threes or more.

I dont get the one eyed views either way, as if it all has to be viewed one way or the other which somehow makes one view right and one wrong. This is a big subject with many fights on many fronts you cant white wash all occurrences away with one other new found true fact and that was this journalists approach it wasnt just reporting it was nailing a flag in and making a claim. (Just my view,trying to look at it both ways so to speak).

[Gandalf]

The roots of modern terrorism come from the kinds of things Kirkland mentioned, but today we have swept Iraq under a rug, refuse to publish the Chilcott whitewash, funded terrorists and then carried on bombing countries that we illegally invaded. Westminster is one of the founding roots of modern terrorism. If we are more likely talking about blowback attacks by angry, disenfranchised people, then I agree with Beanz and Ryan that there is no masterplan resistance and that is why the entire war on terror is nothing more than a scam to spy on people and justify not saving lives in hospitals.

[Andre]

True. Oh well, you wont have any choice in anything eventually. Two groups are growing at a vast rate industrially one group on one front and religiously another group on another.
We are nearly done mate.Our leaders bought it on and we paid for them to do it and we will continue to pay in other ways.

[Gandalf]

It's amazing how quickly the entire system appears to be showing itself for what it is. The rise of the super rich and the demonisation of Islam go hand in hand for me. The war on terror looks to be little more than an excuse to protect the super rich from the pissed off public after the biggest bank robbery of all time and after an illegal war and with no prosecutions for war crimes! It would almost be hilarious in its audacity if it wasn't so fucking wrong.

[Andre]

Yes our governments are wrong and No they are not the reason behind this 100% .

Jesus Miles they just executed their own people for watching their own country play football on the Television!!!

For fucks sake look at them for what they are!

[Gandalf]

My basic questions are a) Where did these invaders come from? b) What radicalised these people? and C ) Why did Iraq get into such bad shape?

I see that bad things are happening. I see that there are people suffering. So why are the people who started all this not in prison? Why are we doubling down on the wrong that we started? Iraqi people are not being helped, their country has been obliterated. All we care about is trying to sell and use more weapons of death and steal their resources. People always seem to want to wash over recent history be it the media or parliament.

You cannot look at today's terrorist without considering the terrorists that started it all, otherwise it is false. You have to be honest about your past to face the demons of the present. The system doesn't want to face up to reality and you see even with the panel of the Chilcot inquiry a bunch of men who are part of the machine and in the system and a reluctance to ever publish their conclusions without first of all seeking war criminal Blair's approval. It's a whitewash, a waste of millions of pounds, a toothless distraction. 'There's terrorism....any amount to fight terrorism!'. It's bullshit.

The main source of terror comes from immense systems of power and control. Outlying terror comes from violent groups of resistance and from radicalisation caused by main source of terror. These sicknesses feed upon one another and the victim is democracy and freedom.

[brocktonblockbust]

chicken and the egg thing: did this start during the 8th-11th centuries though? Muslims expanding into europe....and didnt the crusades-era create a nearly infinite animosity between the west and islam? i think there must be plenty of residual hatred, vengeance, etc. from all that. Then you have colonialism and partitioning and nation building adding to the resentment. There were no such countries as Jordan, Kuwait, Israel, etc. and the dividing up and installing Puppets like Mubarak etc. didn't help matters out either. Meddling in Iranian politics in the 50s (Mossadegh)....Culminating in Bush Sr, Clinton, and Bush Jr. certainly didnt help to combat any of that with their campaigns in Iraq, etc.

All these play significant parts in the roots of terrorism. I say its 50/50 like most things----both sides contributed quite equally.

[Gandalf]

When in doubt always blame Tony Blair!