Sugar Ray Robinson 169 Vs Rocky Marciano 188

[IamInuit]

There is nothing simple about it. You cant just claim someone beats someone cause they have a few pounds on them. 169 vs 188 is not insurmountable odds and its foolish to think it is. Burley pounded guys way bigger then him and as stated earlier Langford made a career out of it but never mind the facts.

[Master]

There is nothing simple about it. You cant just claim someone beats someone cause they have a few pounds on them. 169 vs 188 is not insurmountable odds and its foolish to think it is. Burley pounded guys way bigger then him and as stated earlier Langford made a career out of it but never mind the facts.

If Ezzard Charles or even Jersey Joe Walcott, who were quality boxers, could not do it then how could SRR?

[El Kabong]

There is nothing simple about it. You cant just claim someone beats someone cause they have a few pounds on them. 169 vs 188 is not insurmountable odds and its foolish to think it is. Burley pounded guys way bigger then him and as stated earlier Langford made a career out of it but never mind the facts.

the point I'm making is that you say skill is a bigger part of who wins and who loses, but I've listed Basillio as a guy who although less skilled and smaller than SRR beat him and fought him tooth and nail in a rematch and if Basillio can do that Marciano would crush Robinson.

I just see it the way I see it and that's all. When Ray was 169 he was not in the prime of his career anyway

[IamInuit]

I already said that Pender, Lamotta and Turpin beat him so skill does not always win. I never said Ray wins. I said its not a forgone conclusion that Marciano does

If you think Ray gets smoked that's your opinion and I simply do not share that view. I think its just as possible that Robinson wins on points. I've already named guys who fought at a greater size disparity then this hypothetical so people can draw their own conclusions on this style match up.

[SRR]

There is nothing simple about it. You cant just claim someone beats someone cause they have a few pounds on them. 169 vs 188 is not insurmountable odds and its foolish to think it is. Burley pounded guys way bigger then him and as stated earlier Langford made a career out of it but never mind the facts.

the point I'm making is that you say skill is a bigger part of who wins and who loses, but I've listed Basillio as a guy who although less skilled and smaller than SRR beat him and fought him tooth and nail in a rematch and if Basillio can do that Marciano would crush Robinson.

I just see it the way I see it and that's all. When Ray was 169 he was not in the prime of his career anyway

I don't know why you're using the Basilio fights as markers when Ray fought Basilio in 57/58, a good 5-6 years out of his prime, having taken two years off to go into showbiz. In his prime he was only beaten by LaMotta who outweighed him by more than 2kgs on the night and had arguably one of the greatest chins in boxing history. It's clear simply from looking at SRR's record after his return from hiatus that he was a shadow of his former self:his reflexes, footwork and handspeed had all declined considerably and were only getting worse with each fight, and with the speed went much of his power. So he had to work a lot harder to outbox an opponent and had less chance of causing them trouble with power shots. Have you seen what Ray did to Basilio's eye in the 2nd fight? A prime SRR would have destroyed Basilio, and probably taken him out somewhere in the late rounds. As for this discussion, SRR fought Maxim at a weight Maxim was obviously far more comfortable at and was winning an absolute landslide on the scorecards before he collapsed from heat exhaustion. The fight was held outside in over 100 degree heat and the only man who beat Robinson that day was himself - Maxim never laid a glove on him. So to the question of who would win this proposed fight: it's really very difficult to say, since Marciano weighed more than Maxim and was a much better boxer. Certainly in his prime, with one of the best chins ever, I would give SRR a chance of beating Marciano on points, dancing his way to victory and putting on a boxiing masterclass in the process, but the likelihood is that Ray's power would not have troubled Marciano in the same way it troubled fighters at welter and middleweight, and Ray would have found himself very much on the back foot, at which point knocking out a heavyweight becomes an impossible task. Thus, with nothing to worry about going forward, the probability is that Marciano would have rushed him and thrown bombs until one found its mark and ended the fight.

[El Kabong]

If Robinson was effective at the higher weight classes don't you think he would have tried to win the titles up there?

The heat didn't seem to bother Maxim when they fought...one would think more heat would play to the smaller guy's advantage

[SRR]

If Robinson was effective at the higher weight classes don't you think he would have tried to win the titles up there?

The heat didn't seem to bother Maxim when they fought...one would think more heat would play to the smaller guy's advantage

I don't think it was so much the size, but the style which made the difference: SRR thoroughly out worked Maxim for the first 12 rounds of the fight - dancing around in that heat for 36 minutes throwing punches would wear out most people, and clearly Robinson wasn't used to those conditions, having fought most of his fights indoors or in much milder climates, and overestimated his body's ability to cope with them over the course of a 15 round fight. Maxim didn't do a great deal in the fight, so it's not really surprising that he was less affected by the conditions than Robinson. However, we should also consider that Robinson would have had to make 175 at the weigh in, but probably came down for the fight to roughly his normal weight, whereas Maxim simply stayed at a constant weight no doubt after a certain point in his training camp when his fight weight was achieved. This fluctuation of weight close to the bout may have left SRR's body a little drained come fight time, but I think it was primarily his tactics which defeated him - he should have slowed down the pace once he was way up on the cards in the 10 th or 11th, perhaps putting in a few bursts towards the end of rounds, or saving his energies for a final round assault. But then, it is easy for us to say that from the sidelines - Robinson had to make his decision whilst already tired and probably unsure of where he stood in terms of winning the fight. Perhaps he felt that he couldn't afford to coast or give Maxim an impetus in the fight from which he might have found new life and overpowered an already drained SRR. We just don't know. But as I said, what we may deduce is that Robinson created the conditions of his own surrender by pushing his body past it's limits in extreme conditions, whilst Maxim was left flat footed and consequently did not suffer the same ill effects of the heat.

[El Kabong]

Sugar Ray weighed in at 157 for the fight he didn't have to make 175. There's a ceiling for weight limits, there's no floor.

[SRR]

Sugar Ray weighed in at 157 for the fight he didn't have to make 175. There's a ceiling for weight limits, there's no floor.

My bad, I got a bit mixed up there with the weights issue for some reason, but my answer as to why Maxim did not suffer the way Robinson did remains the same.

[jon09]

Its hard to pick against a fighter who has never been truly knocked out in 200 fights. Who has power, finesse, speed and chin. I feel SRR would move, jab and counter Rocky and win on cuts in the later rounds. Great little man beats the good big man.

[El Kabong]

It's pointless to keep arguing about it because it's a hypothetical fight. Both fighters were great, to call Rocky "good" is a blasphemy he was 49(43 KO)-0-0 ....to go undefeated in nearly 50 fights is pretty damned special and it's not like he was dodging anyone either.

Also IF Sugar Ray Robinson could beat Marciano (you said it not me) why not Joe Louis? I mean if we're going to go down the road of "Sugar Ray Robinson was so great it didn't matter how big his opponent was" then let's push the envelope. How big and how great do you have to be to beat Sugar Ray Robinson? I could think of several fighters that would have given Ray fits at his own weight class and one can certainly make the same case about Marciano, but given Rocky's small stature he wouldn't even be a heavyweight these days.

[SRR]

It's pointless to keep arguing about it because it's a hypothetical fight. Both fighters were great, to call Rocky "good" is a blasphemy he was 49(43 KO)-0-0 ....to go undefeated in nearly 50 fights is pretty damned special and it's not like he was dodging anyone either.

Also IF Sugar Ray Robinson could beat Marciano (you said it not me) why not Joe Louis? I mean if we're going to go down the road of "Sugar Ray Robinson was so great it didn't matter how big his opponent was" then let's push the envelope. How big and how great do you have to be to beat Sugar Ray Robinson? I could think of several fighters that would have given Ray fits at his own weight class and one can certainly make the same case about Marciano, but given Rocky's small stature he wouldn't even be a heavyweight these days.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth: I never said he was so great he would beat anyone regardless of size, I just said it was *possible* that he could have won against Marciano with the right strategy, and if you read my posts you would have noticed I also said the most likely end to a fight between these two would be Marciano knocking Robinson out.

[jon09]

It's pointless to keep arguing about it because it's a hypothetical fight. Both fighters were great, to call Rocky "good" is a blasphemy he was 49(43 KO)-0-0 ....to go undefeated in nearly 50 fights is pretty damned special and it's not like he was dodging anyone either.

Also IF Sugar Ray Robinson could beat Marciano (you said it not me) why not Joe Louis? I mean if we're going to go down the road of "Sugar Ray Robinson was so great it didn't matter how big his opponent was" then let's push the envelope. How big and how great do you have to be to beat Sugar Ray Robinson? I could think of several fighters that would have given Ray fits at his own weight class and one can certainly make the same case about Marciano, but given Rocky's small stature he wouldn't even be a heavyweight these days.

Undefeated records can always be argued with; Like Rocky ducking Floyd Patterson. I think every fighter is good compared to Robinson who to me in his prime was freaking amazing. Most of Sugar Ray's losses were in his late 30's and 40's when he was already spent and heat was the only 1 to knock him out. Like it has been said before its a hypothetical fight against 2 fighters of equal size and I stand by Ray beating Rocky in this 1.

[Master]

Of equal size of course SRR would pulverise Rocky but an old, past his peak, way out of his weight against a prime Rocky (which I think was a mooted fight) would have only resulting in Marciano winning.

[brocktonblockbust]

thıs ıs funny. Marcıano would probably splınter Robınson's forearms wıth even glancıng and ınaccurate shots. Robınson could play possum for about 4 rounds and then ıt would be a pound-down somethıng ugly to see.