Booing of Britains returning 'heroes' - what's your take on it?

[Master]

Do not even give these idiots the energy of thinking about them. They have the freedom to object ad should be thankful for that.

[ono]

ha..."illegal invasion" Has there ever been a legal invasion? I imagine depending on which side of the invasion you are on you might not describe it as legal. Ono I think your choice of the phrase "Illegal Invasion" is also a attempt by the left wing media to "criminalize" it somehow much like your opinion of the media showing religious extremists.

I don't know about that, i don't read any left wing newspapers
Even Richard Perle - former chairman of the DPB (at the time of the invasion he was chairman and he influenced the invasion) admitted that it was illegal...but justified. Of course no WMD's were recovered so it's hard to make a case for it being justified.

[VictorCharlie]

Look as everyone knows I am a American soldier who has deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now knowing that the intel on WMD was flat out wrong I too think the invasion was not justified. I just don't understand the phrase of "illegal" in terms of a military invasion of another country. What makes one legal? It just seems a phrase used to paint the national leaders who put it in progress as criminals. Misinformed...Misguided...poor planners...arogant...sure all apply but criminal? In the end a murderous despot was unseated and possibly a democratic non fundamentalist government is formed in the middle of an area strategically important and unfriendly to the western world. The impact this could have is tremendous. Will it succede? Maybe, maybe not. Was it worth the lives spent to get it? Probably not. But I think if it succedes the world is a better place for it. Being the worlds police force is crappy gig though. Damned if you do...Damned if you don't.

[Spicoli]

Shame on those pachule smelling ,latte sipping hippies.I'm All for free expression and believe it is not only the right of the citizens to stand up and keep the Governments in check...but it is a citizens duty to speak up!!That said,put ones politics aside for one gotdamn minute and understand that these men and women are the same ones waiting behind you at the market....driving along side on the roads.....working some shite job busing your tables where you dine etc.The problem spawns from the shifty politicians with agendas who wrap themselves in the flag.A generation ago.....we had the booing and much worse happen to our returning vets from Vietnam war.My Father & his kid brother.Do not scorn a generation,they are left to shoulder sights and experiences many could never imagine....and hopefully will never have to live!They deserve the utmost respect!

[Kev]

It's just misdirected anger. It's the government they should be mad at, it's not like the troops have any choice in where they go.

You know guys, I also believe that the individual troops have a right to be respected and they are indeed risking their live to serve but I can also see why people boo.

It is every citizens RIGHT and DUTY to question the morality of its government. Just becuase soldiers are brave and loyal people serving our country (actually serving our government) that doesn't follow that the missions and roles they get assigned to are righteous or acceptable.

People who object to the war in Iraq have every right to object to it imo especially in the light of what we now know about fabrication of evidence, the complete absence of the so called WMD etc.

It was a war that was highly controversial all over the world, many nations condemned it outright, even the UN was opposed to the invasion but we and America went and did it anyway.

That's a decision that deserves to be criticised.

Now although I completely agree its not the individual soldiers fault it also annoys me that government hides behind that all the time.

If someone protests against the legitimacy of the war they are lambasted for being unpatriotic and for not supporting our brave men and women serving in these conflicts.

The goverment (both ours and America's) just use their soldiers as a shield to hide behind, trying to divert criticism and popularisng the opinion that to be anti war is to be anti patriotic and anti the individuals who went to war.

I hate this form of kop out that governments routinely do.

I guess the people who booed the returning of our soldiers did so becuase the return of our soldiers was a public event and that booing there will make their booing, and thus opposition to the war a public event also.

If they arn't going to boo the return of the troops and use that publicity to get their message across when else are they? They HAVE to protest at times when the media are there else their protests won't be heard.

Just like the British and US HAD to bomb schools, hospitals etc in Iraq and kill thousands of innocents because they were near to sites of insurgency or enemy military installations.

They were unfortunate victims, casualties of war.

If people opposed to the war boo the return of our soldiers so as to make their voice of opposition heard then I guess that is what they will do.


I genuinely believe Bush and his cronies are guilty of war crimes far in excess of Tariq Aziz who they are trying right now.

[JazMerkin]

It's just misdirected anger. It's the government they should be mad at, it's not like the troops have any choice in where they go.

You know guys, I also believe that the individual troops have a right to be respected and they are indeed risking their live to serve but I can also see why people boo.

It is every citizens RIGHT and DUTY to question the morality of its government. Just becuase soldiers are brave and loyal people serving our country (actually serving our government) that doesn't follow that the missions and roles they get assigned to are righteous or acceptable.

People who object to the war in Iraq have every right to object to it imo especially in the light of what we now know about fabrication of evidence, the complete absence of the so called WMD etc.

It was a war that was highly controversial all over the world, many nations condemned it outright, even the UN was opposed to the invasion but we and America went and did it anyway.

That's a decision that deserves to be criticised.

Now although I completely agree its not the individual soldiers fault it also annoys me that government hides behind that all the time.

If someone protests against the legitimacy of the war they are lambasted for being unpatriotic and for not supporting our brave men and women serving in these conflicts.

The goverment (both ours and America's) just use their soldiers as a shield to hide behind, trying to divert criticism and popularisng the opinion that to be anti war is to be anti patriotic and anti the individuals who went to war.

I hate this form of kop out that governments routinely do.

I guess the people who booed the returning of our soldiers did so becuase the return of our soldiers was a public event and that booing there will make their booing, and thus opposition to the war a public event also.

If they arn't going to boo the return of the troops and use that publicity to get their message across when else are they? They HAVE to protest at times when the media are there else their protests won't be heard.

Just like the British and US HAD to bomb schools, hospitals etc in Iraq and kill thousands of innocents because they were near to sites of insurgency or enemy military installations.

They were unfortunate victims, casualties of war.

If people opposed to the war boo the return of our soldiers so as to make their voice of opposition heard then I guess that is what they will do.


I genuinely believe Bush and his cronies are guilty of war crimes far in excess of Tariq Aziz who they are trying right now.

Great post Bilbo, I owe you a fair bit of rep now

[VictorCharlie]

It's just misdirected anger. It's the government they should be mad at, it's not like the troops have any choice in where they go.

I genuinely believe Bush and his cronies are guilty of war crimes far in excess of Tariq Aziz who they are trying right now.

I hear lefties say this from time to time. Can you expound on this? Which war crimes? And would the Hague even hear this?

[Kev]

It's just misdirected anger. It's the government they should be mad at, it's not like the troops have any choice in where they go.

I genuinely believe Bush and his cronies are guilty of war crimes far in excess of Tariq Aziz who they are trying right now.

I hear lefties say this from time to time. Can you expound on this? Which war crimes? And would the Hague even hear this?

Well the unprovoked and aggressive occupation and invasion of another country in defiance of the United Nations for starters.

The proven and heavily documented use of torture at Abu Ghraib and other places.

The wilful deception of the American people in presenting demonstrably false 'facts' of weapons of mass destruction and an imaginary threat in order to mobilise support for his plans of Middle East conquest.

The Red Cross has spoken publicly in their belief that he is a war criminal.

Manfred Nowak, the UN's special rapportuer on torture has called Bush a criminal over the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.

Even the UN general assembly chief Miguel d'Escoto Brockman said the American military occupation of Iraq needed to probed by the United Nations, as over 1 million deaths have now resulted from this war, meaning Bush has far far far more blood on his hands than Saddam Hussein.

Obama's running mate Joe Biden claimed in 2008 that he and Obama, if elected might investigate and seek prosecution of George Bush and his administration for war crimes.

Even Obama himself said in April 08 that if elected he would ask his attorney general to review the Bush era actions to see if any genuine crimes had been committed.

There is a substantial body of evidence against Bush and it wouldn't suprise me at all if in years to come he is called to account for his actions.

[Andre]

It's just misdirected anger. It's the government they should be mad at, it's not like the troops have any choice in where they go.

I genuinely believe Bush and his cronies are guilty of war crimes far in excess of Tariq Aziz who they are trying right now.

I hear lefties say this from time to time. Can you expound on this? Which war crimes? And would the Hague even hear this?

VanChilds you do know that we actually do exactly to the letter what i mentioned in my first post dont you?


You know this one..

Really what should happen to the booers and protesters is that Mi5 and the cia should be filming them secrectly, finding out who they are, abducting the ring leaders off the streets, flying them out to bases in neutral lawless zones ,torture them for a number of months, get written confessions out them, lock them up in Gwatanimo bay and decide when to deal with them in a closed court session not open to any public law practitioners. that'll help.

I was being serious there bro:

there are warrants out in Germany and Southern Europe for the four cia men who used to fly in and out of Spain ,Angola,etc litterally drugging and bagging suspects off the streets and flying them out to Polish and other lawless areas to carry out long interregations.

plane spotters from all over the globe work outside of airports and document all air craft,they have the Usa gov jets filmed with reg numbers etc.going in and out of Spain,on the exact days kidnappings of musluim men (who now just happen to be in Guatanimo bay).
The press got a hold of it and checked out the upper class hotels in Majorca and the cia men had used their own names to check in and out so know who they are.The US is of course saying nothing and wont hand them over to a court.
Its happend to a british muslium; A german business man (use the term lossely) who was into arms dealing. Also a candian national who the Canadian goverment gave to the Usa when asked for him. He was released and also came out with matching dateson flights and illeagal tourture by the states. He sued his own goverment and they lost and had to pay out.
He has an order agaist the Usa but they passed a bill which still has him as a suspect terrorist and wont let him into the country,thus he cant get a case going against them.

Assholes do actually rule the world.

When questioned by the press over it all,Bush just shrugged and said something up the lines of "I cant comment, Im not privy to every act that goes on in war.

When they asked the ex head of the cia he shut his eyes and nodded but wouldnt say it out loud though of course.

[AdamGB]

We're apparently over there to dispell that sort of treatment so we wouldn't be setting a good example now would we

I thought it was about WMD, or perhaps I was misled.

Or maybe it's the wrong war I'm talking about.

No you're right it was originally....well apparently although none were found. It had nothing whatsoever to do with Iraq's oil reserves

WMDs were a fabrication to try and sway the public but get out of here with that moore esque oil crap

basically what America have tried to do is create a western friendly democratic country in the middle east to try and help stability... the only probably is that Iraq was keeping a lot of the surrounding countrys around it inline and now they are basically unchecked... look at iran etc.

[Andre]

Oh and belive me bro ,Im not against you.

i also know for a fact that if Australia was alone and we didnt have you guys doing your jobs and we wern't allies;then the Indonesian musliums would be comming at us to take us over down here.they out number us about ten to one. And our stupid goverment not only disarmed our public they also melted down all the weapons instead of storing them away in each town!
If we do get invaded or if anarcy breaks out due to massive power failure or earth quakes etc, can you imagine who would rule the streets now that weapons are outlawed; Outlaws will.

Fools: Rule this place too mate they cant think outside the square thats in front of them.

[VictorCharlie]

Let me go line by line on this Bilbo

1. F*ck the UN...what a bullshit inept org
2. Your not really going to pin Abu Ghraib on the President are you? Soldiers when not properly supervised do dumb shit. In this case really dumb shit
3. I believe that Bush truly believed the intel on WMD. Now his admin may have very well created an environment that fostered bringing the "right" Intel. I just think Bush is such a devout christian that he prays at night for the right answer and wakes up in the morning bound and determined to do it. The deal sealer on this for me is Powell. The man embodies integrity. I don't believe he would speak in front of the world if he didn't believe it.
4. I don't buy the middle east conquest either. Iran should have gotten a punitive military response to its training and equiping shia militia to fight in Iraq. They gave us every reason to launch a couple dozen cruise missiles and we did nothing
5. Gitmo- maybe you can find one but I don't know of a time when enemy combatant POWs were not held till their respective war was over. As far as water boarding...well frankly I don't give a shit...Water boarded in gitmo or beheaded on Al jazeera...where is my blind fold?
6. 1 million deaths: I think this is a skewed stat. How many were combatants? How many were from sectarian violence? How many were due to the enemy using them as human shields? I know American's have both accidentally killed and murdered Iraqis but that number is no where near a million. I mean why not tack on all of Darfur b/c of what Bush didn't do?
7. Red Cross....Seriously...thats like asking a Vegan how he feels about McDonalds
8. What did you expect Biden/Obama to say during their campaign? "He is a great guy and we commend him on a job well done!"

I just don't buy the maliciously coniving genius working for global domination. The guy aint that smart. I think he is a Bible thumping good ol boy with romantic ideas about spreading deomcracy and glory. He picked the wrong advisers...got some bad info...had a crappy plan and acted too fast

[Kev]

Let me go line by line on this Bilbo

1. F*ck the UN...what a bullshit inept org
2. Your not really going to pin Abu Ghraib on the President are you? Soldiers when not properly supervised do dumb shit. In this case really dumb shit
3. I believe that Bush truly believed the intel on WMD. Now his admin may have very well created an environment that fostered bringing the "right" Intel. I just think Bush is such a devout christian that he prays at night for the right answer and wakes up in the morning bound and determined to do it. The deal sealer on this for me is Powell. The man embodies integrity. I don't believe he would speak in front of the world if he didn't believe it.
4. I don't buy the middle east conquest either. Iran should have gotten a punitive military response to its training and equiping shia militia to fight in Iraq. They gave us every reason to launch a couple dozen cruise missiles and we did nothing
5. Gitmo- maybe you can find one but I don't know of a time when enemy combatant POWs were not held till their respective war was over. As far as water boarding...well frankly I don't give a shit...Water boarded in gitmo or beheaded on Al jazeera...where is my blind fold?
6. 1 million deaths: I think this is a skewed stat. How many were combatants? How many were from sectarian violence? How many were due to the enemy using them as human shields? I know American's have both accidentally killed and murdered Iraqis but that number is no where near a million. I mean why not tack on all of Darfur b/c of what Bush didn't do?
7. Red Cross....Seriously...thats like asking a Vegan how he feels about McDonalds
8. What did you expect Biden/Obama to say during their campaign? "He is a great guy and we commend him on a job well done!"

I just don't buy the maliciously coniving genius working for global domination. The guy aint that smart. I think he is a Bible thumping good ol boy with romantic ideas about spreading deomcracy and glory. He picked the wrong advisers...got some bad info...had a crappy plan and acted too fast

I'm not saying he would be found guilty necessarily if he was tried but just that there is easily enough evidence against him to warrant investigation.

I mean your attitude to 'Well I think he really believed in weapons of mass destruction because he's a devout Christian and was probably deceived like everyone else' is the lamest justification of someone ever. You can't not investigate someone becuase you think they are a sound bloke its ridiculous.

That's like what happened with Michael Jackson. He gets accused of multiple sex crimes against kids and his fans are all like 'but he's so sweet and innocent like a child himself, he'd never hurt anyone'.

Imagine if the courts decided that the people were right and so not to bring it to trial because 'you know what, it's Micheal, he's a legend, we love him he must be alright'

Now I'm not making an opinion of Michael's guilt one way or the other, or of the result of innonence, I'm just saying that he couldn't just avoid the trial becuase people thought he was innocent.

If there is evidence to suggest criminal activity then any just legal system is bound to investigate it.

Bush and his admin clearly deserve to be investigated for their roles in the torture techniques used, the falsification of evidence related to wmd's etc.

They may be found innocent of all charges but at least it would have been brought to the attention of the law courts and properly investigated.

I think its highly likely that in the future there could be some kind of trial against him and people around him.

[Spicoli]

We should have listened to Scott Ritter.Love him or hate him...He called it to a tee exactly pre the invasion.

One thing that I think gets lost.....soldiers are citizens as well.By supporting them it does not translate into an approval of a Governments policies and twisted manipulations.Im pretty sure their are no Democrates or Republicans sitting in a hole sucking sand.

[VictorCharlie]

In what court Bilbo? I mean Clinton perjured himself and nothing happened. I mean if nothing else is clear I think America has been pretty frank about how much it cares of world opinion. As far as the current administration doing an investigation...they better worry about the plate in front of them and stop passing the blame. Also let me make it clear I'm not absolving Bush of some really poor decision making I just don't buy the conspiracy theories. I think the guy is just a boob who goes to bed every night thinking "well gosh darn't I did my best and the Lord loves me". I just find the concept of war criminal odd. Human rights violator...maybe but when the end state is either your dead or I'm dead the ideals of legality and crime don't come to mind.