How Far Away Is Froch From Being a Pound 4 Pounder?

[Gandalf]

If Froch can beat Abraham then I think he has a very good case. He has a hell of a resume from the last couple of years. He was unwilling to let it all go against Kessler and he can't afford to do that again. He will never stylistically be a great, but if you keep on winning big fights then the case ends there.

[JonnyFolds]

[IMG][/IMG]

Then i look at Sergio Martinez who is number 7, and he's only really gone 1-1-1 against Williams, Pavlik and CIntron. IS that any better than Froch going 3-1 against Taylor, Pascal, Dirrell and Kessler (two of those in his opponents backyard)? I mean, even Williams has question marks hanging over him...

So that begs the question, how do people on here form their p4p lists? What criteria do you all use? Do you all list a few bankers (Mayweather, Pacquiao, JMM, Mosley etc) and then add a few of the champions from the lower weights, after checking them out on Boxrec - of course pretending you've watched them fight more than twice?

I'm genuinley interested. For me, the p4p top ten is full with dark clouds and question marks. It needs shaking up. I can't help but feel a few fighters are holding down spots based on their past reputations, and maybe because there are no obvious front runners to take over the mantle.

When all that is said and done, if he beats Abraham, for me Froch is pushing 10th. He has to be...

For sure the p4p top ten at the moment looks pretty weak on a whole if you lookat past lists, but Froch got beat by Kessler who is nowhere near top 10 right now and the Dirrell win was a dodgy one in most peoples eyes.

The weird thing is, my gut instinct was Dirrell beat Froch, albeit barely. I actually had Froch beating Kessler by 1 round iirc.

His win over Pascal does look very good after what happened this weekend. Imo anyway. I just find it odd that Martinez makes a lot of people's list despite only winning 1 of 3 against Pavlik, Williams and Cintron. Froch goes 3-1 against Taylor, Dirrell, Pascal and Kessler and he isn't even on anyone's radar, even if he managed to beat Abraham, it seems only me and you would have him remotely close to cracking the top ten.

Aside from the Williams/Martinez fight which was actually close... I still had Martinez winning all three of those matches against the absolute best opposition he could seek out for his weight class. The guy fought for peanuts in each fight, won and nobody wants to fight him now. I wonder who you are thinking would beat this guy tomorrow in a fight? It's not like he got luck or anything. The man is all talent.

Now use that same mindset, and slate a bunch of guys against Froch in his weight own weight class. You give credit to Froch for KOing Jermain Taylor in the 12th frame. But you take credit away from Marquez for being in close matches with Casa & Juan Diaz and finishing them off. I feel it's a little bit of a double standard. Marquez is fighting his ass off against HOFers up and down the scales, Froch is struggling to be ranked top 5 in his division. There is just no comparison.

My boy, Martinez is waiting to bust up the next chump you put in front of him. If he fights Froch; I got Sig bets with anyone!!!

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...w=1068&bih=560

[Preme]

wouldn't even put him in the top 50

[Deanrw]

I don't pay any attention to P4P rankings and personally find the whole idea of them to be foolish. Are they are basically is a popularity contest dictated mainly by the media and heavily influenced by geographic location.

On that note, what matters most is Froch has been in there fighting the top togs. He has a willingness to fight absolutely anyone and has a true belief in himself. He is also underrated by most which helps him land the big names.

I have a lot of respect for guys like Froch and Pascal. All you need to do is look around other fighters records to see all the padding. Those guys are there to fight and that to me is truly what matters.

[amat]

I suppose p4p is subjective. You can go on resume, or you can go on actual performances, or a mixture of both.

I just have a hard time believing a guy who holds wins over Dirrell, Taylor, Pascal and if he beat him, Abraham, doesn't even register with most people as being anywhere near worthy. I can understand if you are judging purely on talent alone, because being honest, he is nowhere near. But talent alone doesn't win you fights and it doesn't necessarily make you a good fighter.

I hear the calls for him cleaning out Super-Middleweight, but Super-middleweight is absolutely stacked with talent, and by the time he got round to fighting everyone, he'd be about 37.

It's just a shame really, because guys like Hatton cleaned up a pretty weak 140 and that earns him respect, wheras it will be very tough for any fighter at 168 to clean up, as the range of talent means that it's quite likely that somebody has the style to beat you.

As for him losing around 30 rounds in hist last half dozen fights, i think you have to take into consideration his style. Guys like Ward are slick, so they won't give too many rounds away. Froch goes to war, and leaves himself open. He'll lose rounds, but that shouldn't take away from his victories.

The reason i even brought this was up was basically because i was looking at the p4p rankings, and Marquez and Mosley are both in the top 5, despite Mosley losing to Cotto, looking awful against Mayorga and losing soundly to MAyweather. Marquez is in the top 3, despite many people on here believing he's struggled greatly with Casamayor and Diaz, and of course he was easily beaten by Mayweather.

Then i look at Sergio Martinez who is number 7, and he's only really gone 1-1-1 against Williams, Pavlik and CIntron. IS that any better than Froch going 3-1 against Taylor, Pascal, Dirrell and Kessler (two of those in his opponents backyard)? I mean, even Williams has question marks hanging over him...

So that begs the question, how do people on here form their p4p lists? What criteria do you all use? Do you all list a few bankers (Mayweather, Pacquiao, JMM, Mosley etc) and then add a few of the champions from the lower weights, after checking them out on Boxrec - of course pretending you've watched them fight more than twice?

I'm genuinley interested. For me, the p4p top ten is full with dark clouds and question marks. It needs shaking up. I can't help but feel a few fighters are holding down spots based on their past reputations, and maybe because there are no obvious front runners to take over the mantle.

When all that is said and done, if he beats Abraham, for me Froch is pushing 10th. He has to be...

This is a good post so I'll quote it, forgive it for being long.

First I'll address Froch. No, I don't have Froch near my top 10 list but I will still admit he has some good wins. However, the list is subjective, meaning it doesn't have to be by the book. To me, he didn't come close to winning against Dirrell. I had it 9-3, anything closer then 8-4 is just kind of ridiculous to me and if you think any differently then me and you are just of entirely different schools of thoughts. A gifted (imo) win by the judges might be enough to improve your divisional ranking (it's only fair) but with something so touchy like P4P ratings, it is pretty much worthless. I am never going to think Froch was the better man that night just because he got the win in that fight.

For the Martinez comparision, Martinez is number 7 in the rankings because he is just a better pound for pound fighter then Froch. Yeah the Cintron bout may show up as a draw on his record but anyone who thinks that fight was actually a draw, or that Froch fought a better fight against Dirrell then Martinez did Cintron simply doesn't have a clue. This is my opinion of course, yet that's what the pound for pound rankings are about.

What I'll give Froch is that he did better in the Kessler fight then I expected him to do but he still lost (I think he lost too) and that he is a better fighter (a much better fighter) then what I had previously given him credit for. However, I just don't think he has the skills to match up anywhere close with a great little fighter like Sergio Martinez. I don't care what the record says, I'm just judging how they performed against fairly similar levels of talent and I think Martinez has performed better even if on paper it's not immediately apparent.

The part about your post I love is about how people make up their P4P lists. I think for the most part, it's all recycled. I'm perfectly content with someone putting Guillermo Rigondeaux in their top 10 P4P if they truly believed that he was one of the top 10 in the sport. To avoid looking ridiculous, I put in the criteria that to be top 10 P4P, you should probably at least be top 10 in your division. Other then that, I throw the records completely out of the window and just look at what I see in the ring. I made one a while back and put Bradley at 3. I think so many of these lists are just recycled and I think the little guys are included FAR to easily. I think the biggest problem with the pound for pound lists are just that there simply isn't enough variety.

[ono]

Great post amat.

I'd love to see how many people include the guys they haven't really seen fight. I'm sure i've done it. I had Calderon in despite me only seeing him fight once. I can't be the only one.

[DaxxKahn]

After Pascal beat Dawson, it had me thinking about Froch...

He's beaten Dirrell, Pascal and he knocked out Taylor. He ran Kessler pretty close in Denmark - infact i had it very close, only to be told i was wrong, oddly enough, even by people who'd only watched it on a stream.

That's besides the point. IF Froch beats Abraham, where does that leave him? Talent wise, he'd be nowhere near, but you can't argue with his record (If he beats Abraham).

Would anybody have him anywhere near their top 10?

Pascal was not his best and has improved greatly since then, I pick him over Froch now the way he jumps in scores then keeps his distance so well...JT was beating him until he gassed JT had the fight in the bag, The Kessler fight was closer then given credit for and it is a shame he was given such poor scores...

IF he beats AA it would be a very good run for him but he is not near the P4P top 20 let alone 10...he is not the best SMW in the world let alone asnything else..

He is an exciting fighter who will go at it and you can never say Froch tried to earn an easy payday...He also gives you your Moneys worth even if he is on the losing side I can say that for him and that nis more then a lot of the top 10 P4P ranked guys

His poor defense will catch up to him eventually where he takes too much abuse plus he is not the quickest fighter in the world

[CFH]

After Pascal beat Dawson, it had me thinking about Froch...

He's beaten Dirrell, Pascal and he knocked out Taylor. He ran Kessler pretty close in Denmark - infact i had it very close, only to be told i was wrong, oddly enough, even by people who'd only watched it on a stream.

That's besides the point. IF Froch beats Abraham, where does that leave him? Talent wise, he'd be nowhere near, but you can't argue with his record (If he beats Abraham).

Would anybody have him anywhere near their top 10?

Pascal was not his best and has improved greatly since then, I pick him over Froch now the way he jumps in scores then keeps his distance so well...JT was beating him until he gassed JT had the fight in the bag, The Kessler fight was closer then given credit for and it is a shame he was given such poor scores...

IF he beats AA it would be a very good run for him but he is not near the P4P top 20 let alone 10...he is not the best SMW in the world let alone asnything else..

He is an exciting fighter who will go at it and you can never say Froch tried to earn an easy payday...He also gives you your Moneys worth even if he is on the losing side I can say that for him and that nis more then a lot of the top 10 P4P ranked guys

His poor defense will catch up to him eventually where he takes too much abuse plus he is not the quickest fighter in the world

I would argue that Pascal was at his best in that fight, such as it was then, and that as a result of the Froch fight he became the fighter he is today.

[DaxxKahn]

After Pascal beat Dawson, it had me thinking about Froch...

He's beaten Dirrell, Pascal and he knocked out Taylor. He ran Kessler pretty close in Denmark - infact i had it very close, only to be told i was wrong, oddly enough, even by people who'd only watched it on a stream.

That's besides the point. IF Froch beats Abraham, where does that leave him? Talent wise, he'd be nowhere near, but you can't argue with his record (If he beats Abraham).

Would anybody have him anywhere near their top 10?

Pascal was not his best and has improved greatly since then, I pick him over Froch now the way he jumps in scores then keeps his distance so well...JT was beating him until he gassed JT had the fight in the bag, The Kessler fight was closer then given credit for and it is a shame he was given such poor scores...

IF he beats AA it would be a very good run for him but he is not near the P4P top 20 let alone 10...he is not the best SMW in the world let alone asnything else..

He is an exciting fighter who will go at it and you can never say Froch tried to earn an easy payday...He also gives you your Moneys worth even if he is on the losing side I can say that for him and that nis more then a lot of the top 10 P4P ranked guys

His poor defense will catch up to him eventually where he takes too much abuse plus he is not the quickest fighter in the world

I would argue that Pascal was at his best in that fight, such as it was then, and that as a result of the Froch fight he became the fighter he is today.

Maybe I worded it wrong....At his best I more or less meant that he was not the best version of Pascal....Pascal is much much better today....

[CFH]

After Pascal beat Dawson, it had me thinking about Froch...

He's beaten Dirrell, Pascal and he knocked out Taylor. He ran Kessler pretty close in Denmark - infact i had it very close, only to be told i was wrong, oddly enough, even by people who'd only watched it on a stream.

That's besides the point. IF Froch beats Abraham, where does that leave him? Talent wise, he'd be nowhere near, but you can't argue with his record (If he beats Abraham).

Would anybody have him anywhere near their top 10?

Pascal was not his best and has improved greatly since then, I pick him over Froch now the way he jumps in scores then keeps his distance so well...JT was beating him until he gassed JT had the fight in the bag, The Kessler fight was closer then given credit for and it is a shame he was given such poor scores...

IF he beats AA it would be a very good run for him but he is not near the P4P top 20 let alone 10...he is not the best SMW in the world let alone asnything else..

He is an exciting fighter who will go at it and you can never say Froch tried to earn an easy payday...He also gives you your Moneys worth even if he is on the losing side I can say that for him and that nis more then a lot of the top 10 P4P ranked guys

His poor defense will catch up to him eventually where he takes too much abuse plus he is not the quickest fighter in the world

I would argue that Pascal was at his best in that fight, such as it was then, and that as a result of the Froch fight he became the fighter he is today.

Maybe I worded it wrong....At his best I more or less meant that he was not the best version of Pascal....Pascal is much much better today....

Absolutely, but I think that's due to the Froch fight. I'd love to see a rematch.

[DaxxKahn]

After Pascal beat Dawson, it had me thinking about Froch...

He's beaten Dirrell, Pascal and he knocked out Taylor. He ran Kessler pretty close in Denmark - infact i had it very close, only to be told i was wrong, oddly enough, even by people who'd only watched it on a stream.

That's besides the point. IF Froch beats Abraham, where does that leave him? Talent wise, he'd be nowhere near, but you can't argue with his record (If he beats Abraham).

Would anybody have him anywhere near their top 10?

Pascal was not his best and has improved greatly since then, I pick him over Froch now the way he jumps in scores then keeps his distance so well...JT was beating him until he gassed JT had the fight in the bag, The Kessler fight was closer then given credit for and it is a shame he was given such poor scores...

IF he beats AA it would be a very good run for him but he is not near the P4P top 20 let alone 10...he is not the best SMW in the world let alone asnything else..

He is an exciting fighter who will go at it and you can never say Froch tried to earn an easy payday...He also gives you your Moneys worth even if he is on the losing side I can say that for him and that nis more then a lot of the top 10 P4P ranked guys

His poor defense will catch up to him eventually where he takes too much abuse plus he is not the quickest fighter in the world

I would argue that Pascal was at his best in that fight, such as it was then, and that as a result of the Froch fight he became the fighter he is today.

Maybe I worded it wrong....At his best I more or less meant that he was not the best version of Pascal....Pascal is much much better today....

Absolutely, but I think that's due to the Froch fight. I'd love to see a rematch.

I agree it more then likely pushed Pascal to make adjustments and work harder...If you look at his resume his comp is better since the loss then it was prior to....A rematch would be a good bout indeed....I am in no way a Froch fan just due to the fact he is an annoying cuss on TV and in person but he will give you the worth of admission and he keeps things interesting because he does have darn good stamina...He looks more beatable then what he is but what makes for a good fighter to watch does not make for a fighters skillset....Froch is a fighter that can beat anyone on any given night but more then not he will fall short against the A comp

[Niko's Girl!]

Quite. He's a good fighter but he's not a p4p fighter.