Is Zab Judah an Elite fighter ?

[Pugilistic]

I feel petty making this thread but i feel i have to get a point across.

So simply question......

Is Zab Judah elite ?

Yes or No ?

[marbleheadmaui]

Not trying to be a douche, but can you tell me what "elite" means?

Championship caliber today? Then that'd be yes.

Among the Best of today? Probably no.

Comparable to best we've ever seen? No.

Comparable to best there has ever been? No.

[ICB]

As i said in other thread skillfuly he is elite, not mentally though.

[Pugilistic]

As i said in other thread skillfuly he is elite, not mentally though.

Overall is he an elite fighter to you ?

His best win is over Cory Spinks.

He has lost to Mayweather, Tsyzu, Cotto, Clottey, Spinks, Baldomir.

Don't see how that can be elite imo.

[Kev]

I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.

Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.

[roberto duran legend]

Not IMO lost all the big fights he has been in , lacks mental strenght when the shit hits the fan.

[LukeH]

By my definition of elite he's not now and he never has been.

[Memphis]

By my definition of elite he's not now and he never has been.

What does Elite mean to you?

Bilbo has already answered for me.

[Pugilistic]

To me it's clear that us fans all seem to have different opinions on what elite is.

An elite fighter to me is one of the best in the business.

Pacquiao, Mayweather, Martinez, Marquez, etc to me are "elite" fighters.

Judah's not up there with them, never was.

Obviously other fans think that being world class means your elite, don't think i can agree with it though.

Ricky Hatton was world class who won world title in multiple divisions, etc but came up short against two "elite" fighters. World class operator yes....but elite no.

I guess it's your opinion on it though, keep voting folks.

[Pugilistic]

I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.

Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.

Does that make Glen Johnson elite then ?

I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.

Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.

[Kev]

I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.

Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.

Does that make Glen Johnson elite then ?

I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.

Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.

Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.

I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.

I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.

[FinitoElDinamita]

I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.

Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.

Does that make Glen Johnson elite then ?

I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.

Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.

Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.

I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.

I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.

^^ Now this is a sensible post.

[Pugilistic]

I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.

Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.

Does that make Glen Johnson elite then ?

I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.

Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.

Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.

I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.

I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.

well i apologize for not explaining my opinion properly.

I do think Judah is a worthy opponent for Khan and i do think he is one of the better fighters at 140 (possibly top 5) but i don't think he's elite.

Elite to me is one of the best fighters in the world. Judah doesn't fit that category which i'm sure you agree.

I don't like Boxrec for ratings. It's ratings are always odd. For example, It has Bute as the number 1 super middleweight when it clearly belongs to Ward. Hell Froch deserves it more than Bute does.

I'm glad we cleared up our different opinions on the meaning of "elite".

[LukeH]

I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.

Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.

Does that make Glen Johnson elite then ?

I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.

Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.

Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.

I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.

I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.

A rough definition of elite is 'The best or most skilled members of a group'. I look at the group as boxing as a whole, in which case, as I said, to me Zab isn't nor ever has been elite. You seem to look at is each group is each weightclass? (not saying that's the wrong way to look at it).

[marbleheadmaui]

I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.

Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.

Does that make Glen Johnson elite then ?

I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.

Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.

Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.

I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.

I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.

See THAT is a post that makes sense to me. Quantifying the question. This idea of elite raises another issue I see and that is often labling top 1% fighters as "average" or "B-level" or some such thing.

The fact is the top 1% at ANYTHING is an exceptional performer (in that time period anyway). The problem of course is we almost never even mention, or are aware of, a truly mathematically average fighter. Heck almost everyone we talk about is a top 1% guy.