Lets end the Mike Tyson debate

[El Kabong]

If you think chinny, crab defense-using Ken Norton beats Mike Tyson, you are completely insane. I'd be amazed if he made it out of the 1st round. Mike Tyson is absolute poison for guys like him and Joe Frazier.

But you know who I think beats prime Tyson? This will piss off the Tyson lovers no doubt.... prime Klitschkos (yes, both of them).

I am not Beanflicker nor did I have anything to do with that post......buuuuuut now that someone mentions it

[Master]

If you think chinny, crab defense-using Ken Norton beats Mike Tyson, you are completely insane. I'd be amazed if he made it out of the 1st round. Mike Tyson is absolute poison for guys like him and Joe Frazier.

But you know who I think beats prime Tyson? This will piss off the Tyson lovers no doubt.... prime Klitschkos (yes, both of them).

I am not Beanflicker nor did I have anything to do with that post......buuuuuut now that someone mentions it

Admit it, you are one of the same poster.

[Beanflicker]

Two HUGE guys with mega-reach, QUICK hands, big power and are world class at controlling range and holding/leaning on guys when they get inside. That kind of style has given Mike problems in the past.

[Master]

Two HUGE guys with mega-reach, QUICK hands, big power and are world class at controlling range and holding/leaning on guys when they get inside. That kind of style has given Mike problems in the past.

Vitali does not have quick hands he is very slow but has a good chin.

Wlad is better boxer and has quality but chin not the best.

A combination of the best of the 2 would beat Tyson but not as individuals.

[Beanflicker]

A combination of the best of the 2 would beat Tyson but not as individuals.

I disagree, but I lack the time machine to prove you wrong

[El Kabong]

Vitali does not have quick hands he is very slow but has a good chin.

Wlad is better boxer and has quality but chin not the best.

A combination of the best of the 2 would beat Tyson but not as individuals.

Vitali and Wlad are hard to hit they just are. If working on the inside and getting punches off vs them was easy everyone would do it....it's not for lack of trying that fighters can't do that.

Vitali has one extremely dangerous weapon, his right cross and he feints so well with his jab that he can land lead rights all day long and he upper body movement is so good he's terribly hard to hit.

Wladimir has a more by the book technical style of fighting and if Lennox Lewis could handle Tyson then so could Wladimir. Wlad is more athletic than Lennox and Tyson would have to work extremely hard to stalk him down and by about round 4 the tide would start turning.

[Master]

Vitali does not have quick hands he is very slow but has a good chin.

Wlad is better boxer and has quality but chin not the best.

A combination of the best of the 2 would beat Tyson but not as individuals.

Vitali and Wlad are hard to hit they just are. If working on the inside and getting punches off vs them was easy everyone would do it....it's not for lack of trying that fighters can't do that.

Vitali has one extremely dangerous weapon, his right cross and he feints so well with his jab that he can land lead rights all day long and he upper body movement is so good he's terribly hard to hit.

Wladimir has a more by the book technical style of fighting and if Lennox Lewis could handle Tyson then so could Wladimir. Wlad is more athletic than Lennox and Tyson would have to work extremely hard to stalk him down and by about round 4 the tide would start turning.

Lennox fought an old shell of a fighter so that is not a fair comparison. Vitali is slow and almost glumsy and
Tyson would have little trouble getting in and getting his punches off.

Wlad would be harder and has perfected his style but Tyson just has to get lucky once inside and the fight will be over.

[El Kabong]

Lennox fought an old shell of a fighter so that is not a fair comparison. Vitali is slow and almost glumsy and
Tyson would have little trouble getting in and getting his punches off.

Wlad would be harder and has perfected his style but Tyson just has to get lucky once inside and the fight will be over.

Clumsy LIKE A FOX! Vitali is an awkward fighter always has been, but I'll be damned if he hasn't been highly effective. He's only lost twice and only due to some freak injuries.

Think about this for a second Vitali is 6'8.....Mike Tyson would have a difficult time getting to him just based on how Tyson was effective. Tyson fought out of a crouch meaning he would have a looooong way to go a lot of space to cover before getting close with his punches. The time it would take Tyson to get from Point A to Point B would give Vitali an eternity to dodge punches or stick and move.

Tyson would have to be lucky more than once vs Wlad. Once might put Wlad down or hurt him but it wouldn't keep Wlad down....and how many times did 'Iron' Mike get off the canvas to come back and win fights 0

[Beanflicker]

Lennox fought an old shell of a fighter so that is not a fair comparison. Vitali is slow and almost glumsy and
Tyson would have little trouble getting in and getting his punches off.

I agree that Tyson vs Lewis is no fair comparison, because Tyson by that point was a ghost of his original form.

But Tyson did have occasional trouble getting off on big tall guys when they tied him up on the inside right away. Even bums like Mike Jameson had success in stifling Tyson's offense by tying him up and leaning on him.

[greynotsoold]

Lennox fought an old shell of a fighter so that is not a fair comparison. Vitali is slow and almost glumsy and
Tyson would have little trouble getting in and getting his punches off.

I agree that Tyson vs Lewis is no fair comparison, because Tyson by that point was a ghost of his original form.

But Tyson did have occasional trouble getting off on big tall guys when they tied him up on the inside right away. Even bums like Mike Jameson had success in stifling Tyson's offense by tying him up and leaning on him.

The thing about Tyson, he wasn't a real strong inside fighter, not ever. And that is odd, considering his stature, reach, etc...But, then again, it isn't really uncommon.
Tyson did his damage coming in; he'd slip a punch, duck, what ever, and counter, then he'd fall in and let himself get tied up. He certainly was a formidable body puncher, but it was the same sort of thing. He wasn't the type of fighter to get close and really work in the trenches.
Marciano was the same way, early in his career, fighting at a distance and closing ground behind the right hand, then getting tied up inside. Charley Goldman taught him to fight inside, shortened his stance to enable him to punch in close and so on. I don't think that the people around Tyson, not at any point in his career, were as boxing smart as Charley Goldman. So Tyson remained the guy that had to pot-shot you on the way in or lose the opportunity.

[Vendettos]

Lennox fought an old shell of a fighter so that is not a fair comparison. Vitali is slow and almost glumsy and
Tyson would have little trouble getting in and getting his punches off.

I agree that Tyson vs Lewis is no fair comparison, because Tyson by that point was a ghost of his original form.

But Tyson did have occasional trouble getting off on big tall guys when they tied him up on the inside right away. Even bums like Mike Jameson had success in stifling Tyson's offense by tying him up and leaning on him.

Until he was knocked out in the 5th.

[Beanflicker]

Until he was knocked out in the 5th.

True, but Mike Jameson ain't no Klitschko, either.

[bradlee180]

...and a prime Iron Mike Tyson circa 1986 to 1988 is no Lamon Brewster, Corrie Sanders, nor a Ross Purrity...

[J_Undisputed]

I agree with a lot of things people pointed out here. I would like to make a few points . Many people are neglecting changes that are made over time because we tend to talk about past fighters in the their prime as frozen moments when a fighter was at his best. Something like patterson getting flattened because of the peekaboo style against someone like liston... There's almost 25 years between that fight and Tyson starting to climb the ladder. Besides the differences that exist between body types, muscle mass and ring IQ of the fighters... please allow for some tweaking to the system/ style. Another issue, is D'amato's death in relation to the effect it had on tyson. Presence (current tense) and influence (no presence required) are two different things. Whoever said Cus babied Tyson wasn't lying. He had a free pass outside of the ring but Cus demanded perfection in training. After his death, Rooney, Jacobs and several others had positive influence on tyson and the was instrumental to his success in that it kept his confidence high and kept him believing in himself. Ripping through guys in 2-3 rounds does alot for your confidence but it also makes you complacent. Tyson needed to have the right counterbalance for doubt in his corner after an opponent weathered the early storm. It could be seen in some of the fights that went the distance where tyson kept chopping away till a big tree fell or wilted. The disparity of opinions on tyson also come from the range of difference from Tyson being at his best (where the detractors were waiting for an expose that didnt come till 5 years/25-30 fights later?) and fans that believe he was god like but stopped watching as soon as he lost his 38th fight. Looking at that line were things started to turn, its hardly a blip on the screen. The supporting cast of Jacobs, Rooney, Cayton and others was replace by King, Givens and her mother, and other hangers on. Change of employers/management, marriage, divorce, drugs, money problems are all things that could hamper anyone, but raise the stakes and gamble ones fame, ranking and fortune (not to mention health if you're not focused) and you can see where the clu$terfuck of identity crisis, prison terms, slacking off in training, car crash/ purported suicide attempt came from. These are not excuses but just a mention that it doesn't take a hell of a lot for someone to lose it all. The question that begs to be asked is was this a fighter who was coming to point where his talent/edge was tapering off, and it just coincided with these personal issues and he got beat and then stayed too long..... or was he a dominant force that started to lose focus because of these issues but was able to continue on with residual skill and power.. win some, lose some but never regain the will, the focus or control he had when was maintained by better people? Self destructive is self destructive, no matter what kind of wrapper you put on it. I think he was a force that if maintained better would have lasted longer burned brighter though still burned out. While he was here, there was no denying his success. It wasn't just the knockouts, it was the way he knocked them out. Coincidentally, I came across Mike on the street in the south bronx a few weeks ago when he was doing his show in NY. He seems to be in a better place... I guess we all have a path to walk...

[El Kabong]

Life happens to people....decisions you do or don't make have an affect on you. Mental issues, being bipolar, and coming from a broken home don't usually put you on a path to glory. Champions brush that off or rebound. I am glad Mike is in a better place now.

The training for the peek-a-boo style may have changed but the style has not. Tyson was the most dynamic at that style and his body was the best suited for it and he did as much as could be done with that style. Some of the guys that used that style.....it was just outrageously silly Buster Mathis was 6'3 and 300 pounds at times, he used that style. The technique of fighting against a guy in a crouch has never and will never change.

I do wonder if other fighters could have adopted the peek-a-boo style and done better than they did with their original styles, but they'd still be at the mercy of anyone with a good jab and long reach or a bigger bully. Shane Mosley comes to mind as someone who could have done well with that style, he reminded me of a mini-Tyson....but look who beat him Forrest & Wright...guys would were built to take on that style. Joe Frazier might have been better suited to the Peek-a-boo style, but then again he didn't really develop a right cross until the third time he fought Ali so who knows. But Tyson was without a doubt the best peek-a-boo style fighter ever....that said he'd still pretty much always lose to Holyfield & Lewis