Boxing and brain damage.

[CGM]

Id have to look it up again,but if you run a google search using Sport Related Deaths,you'll end up finding both the links I found,theyre relatively dry stats to read through. Bicycling is also the leader in juvenile injuries.
Though for juvenile trips to the emergency room, I was surprised to see that basketball was really high up there,I didnt expect that.
Wait I still had it in my google bar so I looked it up again
Heres one
Sports Injury Statistics - My Child Has - Children's Hospital Boston
Heres another
Sport Injuries and Injury Statistics
There are more links,but my ass is way to lazy to keep digging again

Yeah, I am also too lazy to spend a lot of time looking. I'd be surprised if we are talking about just competitive bicycle racing. But recreational cycling that wouldn't surprise me, as there is a somewhat higher risk of getting hit by a car while cycling, than in the boxing ring. I'd also say the participation numbers are much lower for boxing.

A quick bit research seems to indicate that the most common sports related cause of death is cardiac arrest, which can happen in any sport. The numbers are surprisingly high for young people and cardiac arrest.

I know a few guys have snuffed it doing the Tour De France,apparantly theres one pass thats just a death trap if you screw up.
I was kind of surprised by the stats, I was expecting Football to be the hands down winner,I didnt expect bicycling and basketball to be that high on the list.
Goes to show,you dont allways know what you think you know

Yes, there are surprises. I understand that motocross racing is physically very taxing. All kinds of punishment absorbed there.

We need to stay clear and on point regards to what we are talking about, or else comparisons are meaningless. Recreation or competition? Death or injury? Also the time period over which statistics are compiled.

I know of at least one Tour de France death that was drug related, because apparently drugs enabled the cyclist to push his body beyond the limits of safety.

But I guess I'm getting off topic here, although all this is useful to make clear that boxing isn't the only dangerous sport, though I'd say it probably is at the top of the list for cumulative brain injury.

[Trainer Monkey]

Even then your argument is flawed,you take 3 straight KO's your on indefinite suspension until you have your noggin examined.
You take three concussions in hockey,or football,they just see when your ready to come back

I don't know where you're getting your information you're using (thin air I would imagine), but these big league teams have trainers and physicians on hand for the athletes, so if you have ONE concussion, you get examined and you're cleared when you're better. They don't wait for you to get knocked out 3 times in a row to pay attention to your health. These leagues take care not to tarnish their reputations so there is a lot more emphasis on safety.

Also, when a player is injured often (particularily with concussions), he becomes a liability and often finds his work options limited (look at Eric Lindros). I'm not saying these big league owners are saints, but its a far cry from letting 45 year old Holyfield, a guy 12 years removed from his prime, get into the ring and fight world champs. Or letting a guy with BLATANT signs of brain damage in 41 year old Riddick Bowe fight on the undercard of a world championship fight.

Andre Waters
Chris Benoit
I can keep going here
Now if you want to say there should be a national overseeing body, and that brainscans should be mandatory coming off a KO,rather then doing what Mesi did,wait until his liscence expired and re-apply somewhere else.
Now there we would be in agreement.
There are ways to make the sport safer, but your original posit was that the sport itself was more inherently dangerous then other sports.
The statistics dont support that.
Should the rules be tweeked
Yes they should
But it doesnt make boxing more inherently dangerous then any other sport. I also cave,which is seriously inherently dangerous compared to boxing

[Trainer Monkey]

Yeah, I am also too lazy to spend a lot of time looking. I'd be surprised if we are talking about just competitive bicycle racing. But recreational cycling that wouldn't surprise me, as there is a somewhat higher risk of getting hit by a car while cycling, than in the boxing ring. I'd also say the participation numbers are much lower for boxing.

A quick bit research seems to indicate that the most common sports related cause of death is cardiac arrest, which can happen in any sport. The numbers are surprisingly high for young people and cardiac arrest.

I know a few guys have snuffed it doing the Tour De France,apparantly theres one pass thats just a death trap if you screw up.
I was kind of surprised by the stats, I was expecting Football to be the hands down winner,I didnt expect bicycling and basketball to be that high on the list.
Goes to show,you dont allways know what you think you know

Yes, there are surprises. I understand that motocross racing is physically very taxing. All kinds of punishment absorbed there.

We need to stay clear and on point regards to what we are talking about, or else comparisons are meaningless. Recreation or competition? Death or injury? Also the time period over which statistics are compiled.

I know of at least one Tour de France death that was drug related, because apparently drugs enabled the cyclist to push his body beyond the limits of safety.

But I guess I'm getting off topic here, although all this is useful to make clear that boxing isn't the only dangerous sport, though I'd say it probably is at the top of the list for cumulative brain injury.

Id say its changed alot since the abolition of the 15 round fight. Guys leave the sport now,and theyre cool.
Thats why Im so vehemently opposed to the re-instatement of the 15 round fight, between dehydration, and exhaustion, those guys allmost all walked out of their career punchy.
But lets face the facts,all athletic activities are inherently dangerous, thats why its an athletic activity. If your grandma could be a sprinter,then everyone could.

[Beanflicker]

The statistics dont support that.
Should the rules be tweeked
Yes they should
But it doesnt make boxing more inherently dangerous then any other sport. I also cave,which is seriously inherently dangerous compared to boxing

The stastics do support that. Boxing is INHERENTLY more dangerous than any other sport because when it is done PROPERLY, someone is injured. Like I said before, the PURPOSE of boxing is to hurt you opponent, and you can't say that about any other non-fight sport.

You also named 2 names, one being a football player and the other a pro wrestler. I'll tell you what, you name as many people brain damaged from EVERY other sport and I'll name everyone brain damaged from boxing, and we'll see who comes up with more names.

You say cycling is more dangerous because it has a larger quantity of injuries, but contrast that to how many people cycle and how many people box.

[Beanflicker]

I assume this is where you got your info from... measuring how many trips to the emergency room each accounted for.

1. Basketball: 512,213
2. Bicycling: 485,669
3. Football: 418,260
4. Soccer: 174,686
5. Baseball: 155,898
6. Skateboards: 112,544
7. Trampolines: 108,029
8. Softball: 106,884
9. Swimming/Diving: 82,354
10. Horseback riding: 73,576
11. Weightlifting: 65,716
12. Volleyball: 52,091
13. Golf: 47,360
14. Roller skating: 35,003
15. Wrestling: 33,734

Ok so which of these activities did more people participate in: swimming or boxing? Roller skating or boxing? Baseball or boxing? Riding a bicycle or boxing? ECT ECT

And again it comes down to how serious an injury is, and I content that an injury to your brain, which is irreversible, is more serious than an injury to a limb, which heals in time.

[Trainer Monkey]

The statistics dont support that.
Should the rules be tweeked
Yes they should
But it doesnt make boxing more inherently dangerous then any other sport. I also cave,which is seriously inherently dangerous compared to boxing

The stastics do support that. Boxing is INHERENTLY more dangerous than any other sport because when it is done PROPERLY, someone is injured. Like I said before, the PURPOSE of boxing is to hurt you opponent, and you can't say that about any other non-fight sport.

You also named 2 names, one being a football player and the other a pro wrestler. I'll tell you what, you name as many people brain damaged from EVERY other sport and I'll name everyone brain damaged from boxing, and we'll see who comes up with more names.

You say cycling is more dangerous because it has a larger quantity of injuries, but contrast that to how many people cycle and how many people box.

You mean a free safety isnt trying to injure his opponent?
It would come as a hell of a surprise to every single coach in the NFL. One of the first things they teach offensive lineman is to chop block,thats where you throw your weight right in to the other guys knees. In baseball when they teach you to pitch,they teach you to throw at a guy,you mean a hard spherical object thrown at someones head,isnt intent to injure?

[Trainer Monkey]

I assume this is where you got your info from... measuring how many trips to the emergency room each accounted for.

1. Basketball: 512,213
2. Bicycling: 485,669
3. Football: 418,260
4. Soccer: 174,686
5. Baseball: 155,898
6. Skateboards: 112,544
7. Trampolines: 108,029
8. Softball: 106,884
9. Swimming/Diving: 82,354
10. Horseback riding: 73,576
11. Weightlifting: 65,716
12. Volleyball: 52,091
13. Golf: 47,360
14. Roller skating: 35,003
15. Wrestling: 33,734

Ok so which of these activities did more people participate in: swimming or boxing? Roller skating or boxing? Baseball or boxing? Riding a bicycle or boxing? ECT ECT

And again it comes down to how serious an injury is, and I content that an injury to your brain, which is irreversible, is more serious than an injury to a limb, which heals in time.

A) No it doesnt, you may even think its healed,but your going to feel it later. This is why I sleep on the couch rather then next to my wife. Im disruptive in bed and disturb her sleep, because of numerous "healed" limb injuries
B) I have never had a boxer suffer from repetitive concussion syndrome, but I have seen numerous football players who have

[holmcall]

This has become a very interesting thread. Great debates and good info.

[CGM]

The statistics dont support that.
Should the rules be tweeked
Yes they should
But it doesnt make boxing more inherently dangerous then any other sport. I also cave,which is seriously inherently dangerous compared to boxing

The stastics do support that. Boxing is INHERENTLY more dangerous than any other sport because when it is done PROPERLY, someone is injured. Like I said before, the PURPOSE of boxing is to hurt you opponent, and you can't say that about any other non-fight sport.

You also named 2 names, one being a football player and the other a pro wrestler. I'll tell you what, you name as many people brain damaged from EVERY other sport and I'll name everyone brain damaged from boxing, and we'll see who comes up with more names.

You say cycling is more dangerous because it has a larger quantity of injuries, but contrast that to how many people cycle and how many people box.

You mean a free safety isnt trying to injure his opponent?
It would come as a hell of a surprise to every single coach in the NFL. One of the first things they teach offensive lineman is to chop block,thats where you throw your weight right in to the other guys knees. In baseball when they teach you to pitch,they teach you to throw at a guy,you mean a hard spherical object thrown at someones head,isnt intent to injure?

Can I respond to this?

OK TM, here is an undeniable fact. Regardless of your feelings about the sport of boxing, striking your opponent in the head such that he suffers an injury (KO) is an integral part of the sport. IT is encouraged and desireable. It is allowed. We applaud it. Even when it doesn't end in KO, do it enough times and you get brain damage.

Deliberately throwing a baseball at someone's head is against the rules. It will get you tossed out of the game. Hell, a couple of pitches that even come close to a batter's head will get you tossed.

See the difference?

[bambamdaddio]

I am reading this book by a neurologist, and he is saying that boxing absolutely a no-no in terms of what it does to your brain... obviously. However I would like to raise the fact that boxing takes it biggest toll on the brain long after you quit doing it. It does lasting damage to the hippocampus and cerebellum which is why it is likely to cause Alzheimers and Parkinsons.

So I am bringing this up because people criticized in particular Freddie Roach for what he has said about the health of certain fighters, but I think while reading this book that I am not going to continue sparring for one, but also guys like Hopkins might be wise to leave the sport asap. Regardless of how hard it is to hit Hopkins he has been fighting pro for 20 years, most of it at the top level of the sport where guys hit harder, and do more damage. I am really worried for guys I admire like him, Holyfield, and other guys like Margarito who are really going to suffer in their late 40's and 50's. All pro fighters suffer multiple times the brain damage an average person does, and even guys like Leonard who have escaped rather unscathed have far less intellectual capacity than they would have, had they not put on a pair of gloves. I feel these are important things for people in boxing to know, and it seems avoided way too much.

Its not avoided at all, it's all very well understood in the Pro Boxing world (& amateurs)... rightly or wrongly it is a calculated risk that is taken by individual choice ..... in very much the same way that Motor Sport, Steeple Chasing & various other sports are .... & not forgetting to mention careers, gulf war syndrome, limbs blown off, death, are all a serious threat, but are calculated against other choices before the individual makes there decision to take part in or have a career in the area they choose..

[Trainer Monkey]

The stastics do support that. Boxing is INHERENTLY more dangerous than any other sport because when it is done PROPERLY, someone is injured. Like I said before, the PURPOSE of boxing is to hurt you opponent, and you can't say that about any other non-fight sport.

You also named 2 names, one being a football player and the other a pro wrestler. I'll tell you what, you name as many people brain damaged from EVERY other sport and I'll name everyone brain damaged from boxing, and we'll see who comes up with more names.

You say cycling is more dangerous because it has a larger quantity of injuries, but contrast that to how many people cycle and how many people box.

You mean a free safety isnt trying to injure his opponent?
It would come as a hell of a surprise to every single coach in the NFL. One of the first things they teach offensive lineman is to chop block,thats where you throw your weight right in to the other guys knees. In baseball when they teach you to pitch,they teach you to throw at a guy,you mean a hard spherical object thrown at someones head,isnt intent to injure?

Can I respond to this?

OK TM, here is an undeniable fact. Regardless of your feelings about the sport of boxing, striking your opponent in the head such that he suffers an injury (KO) is an integral part of the sport. IT is encouraged and desireable. It is allowed. We applaud it. Even when it doesn't end in KO, do it enough times and you get brain damage.

Deliberately throwing a baseball at someone's head is against the rules. It will get you tossed out of the game. Hell, a couple of pitches that even come close to a batter's head will get you tossed.

See the difference?

But yet it happens in every game almost
And what happens to a wide reciever if he goes over the middle when a safety is sitting in Zone Coverage.
If you said practically having your head removed from your shoulders,you would be correct
The NHL has an entire class of players called thugs,that are only in the league to wallop people,they arent great skaters,they have minimal puck handeling ability,but they can level a guy

[holmcall]

http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Science-of-a-Knock-Out-Punch this shows the anatomy of a knockout. Quite interestin.

[CGM]

You mean a free safety isnt trying to injure his opponent?
It would come as a hell of a surprise to every single coach in the NFL. One of the first things they teach offensive lineman is to chop block,thats where you throw your weight right in to the other guys knees. In baseball when they teach you to pitch,they teach you to throw at a guy,you mean a hard spherical object thrown at someones head,isnt intent to injure?

Can I respond to this?

OK TM, here is an undeniable fact. Regardless of your feelings about the sport of boxing, striking your opponent in the head such that he suffers an injury (KO) is an integral part of the sport. IT is encouraged and desireable. It is allowed. We applaud it. Even when it doesn't end in KO, do it enough times and you get brain damage.

Deliberately throwing a baseball at someone's head is against the rules. It will get you tossed out of the game. Hell, a couple of pitches that even come close to a batter's head will get you tossed.

See the difference?

But yet it happens in every game almost
And what happens to a wide reciever if he goes over the middle when a safety is sitting in Zone Coverage.
If you said practically having your head removed from your shoulders,you would be correct
The NHL has an entire class of players called thugs,that are only in the league to wallop people,they arent great skaters,they have minimal puck handeling ability,but they can level a guy

Actually no, you do not get baseballs deliberately thrown at someone's head almost every game. You are just making statements out of thin air. And baseball players wear hard hat's with webbing on the inside. The issue I am making is one of intent and the rules of the game. You can have great baseball without blows to the head and body. Last time I checked, you cannot have great pro boxing without those things. You can't argue against that point.

Boxing and other martial arts is unique in that repeated blows to the head is a natural and desireable part of the game. It's how you win or lose. It is allowed and encouraged by the rules. Repeated blows to the head is not allowed and encouraged by the rules in either baseball or football. This is FACT. You can't argue this point.

Focus on this issue TM. I'm talking about what is and is not allowed and encouraged by the rules.

[holmcall]

[quote=CGM;647265][quote=Trainer Monkey;647261][quote=CGM;647254]



OK TM, here is an undeniable fact. Regardless of your feelings about the sport of boxing, striking your opponent in the head such that he suffers an injury (KO) is an integral part of the sport. IT is encouraged and desireable. It is allowed. We applaud it. Even when it doesn't end in KO, do it enough times and you get brain damage.


Very true

[Trainer Monkey]

http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Science-of-a-Knock-Out-Punch this shows the anatomy of a knockout. Quite interestin.

Interesting,Ive allways taught that body drive was more important then huge biceps,well if thats correct,some scientific evidence to support that.
I never said BTW that you werent going to get your bell rung in boxing,what I did say was, most sports involve getting your bell rung
Or even worse
Ask Daryll Stingley to do a line dance for you,Christopher Reeves got crippled playing polo for the love of god,Chuck Bednarik hit Frank Gifford so hard they thought he'd killed him
Carl Mays killed a guy in baseball,Don Zimmer has a metal plate in his head from a bean ball