How high would you rank Manny in ATG if he beats PBF?

[ElTerribleMorales]

Best hypocrite post ever. cant say why because truth hurts. how can you deny no mas, no mas? does duran moves in and out? side to side? does he has lateral movement? compare pac resume to duran and youll see, blind stupid freak.

Yes he did actually!! These may not be key characteristics of his method of fighting, but he still had them. But Why are you using those things as reasons for him not being great? Are moving in and out and having great lateral movement the main criteria for great boxers? You need to go and watch some more Duran fights (and that's something I rarely say, coz I hate it when people say it, but you need to) the guys is arguably top 5 all time p4p and that is a view shared by a huge number of boxers, writers etc that know a lot more than you and I. I'll give yo No mas, it is the one shadow over his career - who knows what happend, but he more than made up for it before and after.

As for resume, you need to look at his career at Lightweight, anything after that (and he still had great achievements) was not his prime, he fought nearly twice as many fights at Lightweight than PBF has fought in his whole career to date.

Greatest Lightweight ever 71-1 - criticize his opposition all you want, but tell me who he didn't face during his reign

Was level after 12 rounds with the greatest middleweight of all time fighting 20 pounds above his natural weight.

Beat the unbeaten all time great Sugar Ray Leonard.

I remember i used to question Roberto Duran at one point, but boy was i wrong when i watched more of his fights. He was an excellent boxer/puncher, and probably had one of the best defense's for an aggressive fighter. He really had a slippery defense.

He also has some underrated wins at Lightweight and below Lightweight amazingly, he beat a very good boxer in Vilomar Fernandez who gave a prime Alexis Arguello, a boxing lesson pretty much. He also beat Ernesto Marcel at Featherweight i believe who also beat Alexis Arguello aswell.

And despite all that i think the fact that he lost at the higher weightclasses, and kept coming back when you thought he was a finished fighter actually adds to his greatness IMO.

And remember he started at 119 not far from Manny Pacquiao's orignal weightclass, and he managed to win a title at Middleweight and be competitive at the higher weightclasses, truly incredible IMO.

actually was at Super Middleweight

[ICB]

Yes he did actually!! These may not be key characteristics of his method of fighting, but he still had them. But Why are you using those things as reasons for him not being great? Are moving in and out and having great lateral movement the main criteria for great boxers? You need to go and watch some more Duran fights (and that's something I rarely say, coz I hate it when people say it, but you need to) the guys is arguably top 5 all time p4p and that is a view shared by a huge number of boxers, writers etc that know a lot more than you and I. I'll give yo No mas, it is the one shadow over his career - who knows what happend, but he more than made up for it before and after.

As for resume, you need to look at his career at Lightweight, anything after that (and he still had great achievements) was not his prime, he fought nearly twice as many fights at Lightweight than PBF has fought in his whole career to date.

Greatest Lightweight ever 71-1 - criticize his opposition all you want, but tell me who he didn't face during his reign

Was level after 12 rounds with the greatest middleweight of all time fighting 20 pounds above his natural weight.

Beat the unbeaten all time great Sugar Ray Leonard.

I remember i used to question Roberto Duran at one point, but boy was i wrong when i watched more of his fights. He was an excellent boxer/puncher, and probably had one of the best defense's for an aggressive fighter. He really had a slippery defense.

He also has some underrated wins at Lightweight and below Lightweight amazingly, he beat a very good boxer in Vilomar Fernandez who gave a prime Alexis Arguello, a boxing lesson pretty much. He also beat Ernesto Marcel at Featherweight i believe who also beat Alexis Arguello aswell.

And despite all that i think the fact that he lost at the higher weightclasses, and kept coming back when you thought he was a finished fighter actually adds to his greatness IMO.

And remember he started at 119 not far from Manny Pacquiao's orignal weightclass, and he managed to win a title at Middleweight and be competitive at the higher weightclasses, truly incredible IMO.

actually was at Super Middleweight

Nah it was Middleweight bro i just double checked to make sure, its because Iran Barkley had just KO'ed Tommy Hearns. And i know that was at Middleweight, and Roberto Duran fought for the title Tommy Hearns won off Juan Roldan which he then lost to Iran Barkley.

Maybe your getting mixed up with the 3rd fight. He had against Sugar Ray Leonard, which was for the Super Middleweight title but he lost that fight. I believe Sugar Ray Leonard won that title from beating Donny La Londe, which was at catchweight and two titles were on the line i believe.

[Tysonbruno]

It was the WBC Middleweight title it was about a year before Benn stopped him in 1 round Barkley that is.

[THE THIRD MAN]

IMO Mayweather still has a lot more to prove, he is without doubt the best defensive boxer i have ever seen, he has managed his career well, avoiding the likes of Tszyu, Mosley, Cotto, Margarito and a well timed retirement just as Paul Williams becomes a dominant force? He still has good wins over Castillo, Corrales, DLH and Hatton. Pacquiao has done it all, coming from Flyweight!! His last 4 fights define his career with wins over Marquez, DLH, Hatton and Cotto. Many on this forum gave him little chance against DLH (me included) he then destroys Hatton in 2 rounds with a text book left hook, he then goes up against the solid, big hitting Cotto who many believe should still be undefeated after Margogate! How high would i rank him if he beats Floyd? Top 20 ATG for certain, he is pretty close to that now! Floyd needs to beat Manny convincingly to achieve the same recognition. Currently i have Manny ahead of Floyd. I reckon Floyd has more to lose here in a fight with Pacquiao.

Ok, this is what annoys me when people rearrange history to fit their opinion.

Paul Williams was not becoming a dominant force when Mayweather retired, in fact, at the time he retired Williams was coming off a one-sided decision loss to Carlos Quintana. It is only since his retirement & comeback that he has fought his way to the position he is now.

I also get sick of hearing that he ducked Tszyu & Mosley. There was an arrangement in place that Mayweather & Tszyu would meet after they both made some money fighting easier opponents (let's not forget neither was BIG bucks then). Mayweather beat Gatti easily, but Tszyu didn't fulfill his part of it & got beaten by Hatton a month earlier if I remember rightly.

Mayweather called Mosley out in 1999, when Mosley priced himself out of a fight demanding $10m (fair enough as he had an Oscar fight on the horizon) & in 2006, when he wanted to have a vacation rather than make the fight. I have no problem with him doing that, but let's not then claim he's been avoided.

As for Margarito & Cotto, I can certainly some truth there, but only with them. Margarito he could have fought in 2006 for $8m (although you have to wonder if that was there seeing as Margarito only made $3m fighting Mosley this year - remember this is pre-ODLH Mayweather), but he chose to fight the Lineal Champion Baldomir for the same money.

As for Cotto, I can definitely see the argument that he retired at a time when Cotto was coming up. There was recently a rumour that they tried to make the fight at when both were at 140, but the fact is Cotto was a different beast at 147.

Plus, can we please stop pretending that Hatton was one of PBF's best wins? He was a good win, but Corrales, Castillo, ODLH & Genaro Hernandez all are worth more, not to mention Marquez even if that fight was a tune-up.

I'm not going to take credit away from any of Manny's victories because what he's done is amazing, but don't rewrite history (his last 4 fights have been Cotto, Hatton, ODLH & David Diaz btw) just to suit an argument. Why can't people just accept that we're lucky to have 2 of the best in the history of this profession almost certain to fight one another & sit back & enjoy it rather than acting like they need to denigrate one or the other.

I didn't say he ducked them, i said he avoided them, for whatever reason the fights did not take place and they could have. Very convieniant i would say that he didn't fight them. I'm not knocking Floyd's resume, there are some great wins there (DLH, Hatton were great wins!) and don't tell me he has not kept a watchful eye on the taller more awkward Paul Williams. I just think Pacquiao has done more, coming from Flyweight to beat Miguel Cotto at Welterweight is an extraordinary achievement, it will take an extraordinary fighter like Floyd Mayweather jr to beat Manny Pacquiao.

[miron_lang]

Right now he's about Top 20, I have him & Mayweather about even, whoever wins gets comfortably in the Top 10. They're already the 2 best since Leonard retired, you could arguably have Pernell Whitaker ahead right now, but I can't see Jones ahead. But they'd have to beat the Mosley/Berto winner or Paul Williams to be the GOAT for me. Truthfully you can't properly assess a career till its over. Remember people used to think Leonard ducked top fights & cherry-picked, there were those who thought it ludicrous he be considered an ATG, yet now most people have him in the Top 10, some in the Top 5.

HAHAHAHAHA that's fuckin crazy LOL

[BIG H]

Right now he's about Top 20, I have him & Mayweather about even, whoever wins gets comfortably in the Top 10. They're already the 2 best since Leonard retired, you could arguably have Pernell Whitaker ahead right now, but I can't see Jones ahead. But they'd have to beat the Mosley/Berto winner or Paul Williams to be the GOAT for me. Truthfully you can't properly assess a career till its over. Remember people used to think Leonard ducked top fights & cherry-picked, there were those who thought it ludicrous he be considered an ATG, yet now most people have him in the Top 10, some in the Top 5.

HAHAHAHAHA that's fuckin crazy LOL

I don't think so, I agree with Jaz. Pac probably just ahead on achievement to date, but very close.

[TitoFan]

I give Manny all the credit in the world for having gone up in weight and having beaten DLH, Hatton, and Cotto. No one knew for sure that he was going to be able to handle the bigger opponents, but he did. That DLH turned out to be shot... sure. Like they say, hindsight is 20-20 vision. That Hatton was overrated (mostly by himself)... sure. He still had the amazing record at 140. The Cotto fight was a true revelation. Manny whipped an excellent 147-pounder at his true weight, no excuses.

Having said all that, I think some people are going overboard with the G.O.A.T. thing, and claiming that Manny walks on water. Surely, if Manny beats PBF, I don't think anyone will be able to dispute his greatness among the ATGs. But you just can't dismiss fighters from other eras, and so willingly throw fighters like Roberto Duran under a bus.

In one of the Pacquiao-Cotto 24/7's, Arum talks about the golden 80's, with the likes of Duran, Hagler, Hearns, SRL, Benitez, all fighting around the same time. And fighting EACH OTHER. Back then there was less posturing, less "retiring" to come back later, less ducking, etc. Fighters didn't claim to be fighting for the p4p anything (Hatton vs. Pac), and accomplishments were earned over long careers. Nowadays, we're so much starving for ATG's, that we're willing to throw that title on anybody with 10 or 20 fights.

I love Manny, and will root for him against PBF. I also admire PBF's boxing skills and rate them right up there with the best of all time. (What I do NOT admire about PBF is his posturing, his self-importance, and -- and this will always be hotly contested by PBF fans -- his penchant for avoiding certain fighters). IMO, it's important to maintain a good perspective, and not rush to judgement on fighters that haven't yet finished their careers.

[heavyhands]

If he passes that drug test and beats mayweather....very high. To quote Roger Mayweather, "if he pass that test, you already know what going to happen he fight my nephew."

I couldn't agree more with Roger on that one....

[johnsebastianmiran]

I happen to think that PAC is pretty damn good and Mayweather although he is a dick is not to be ignored because there wasn't too many divisions that he fought in that someone did not become an ex champion in upon his arrival either. Love them or hate them, they are very marketable. Duran was popular around the world and didn't duck too many people and payed for it with Leonard and Hearns. He did fight Vilomar Fernandez and knocked him out and he was underrated in his boxing skills and yet those stupid announcers were so busy jacking their jibs that they talked through those fantastic training films of Duran's. How many people do you know jump rope in a squat position and strike a speed bag with considerable speed with their head. Yes Manny is good and this thread is about him but he has not reached greatness yet and fighting Floyd doesn't necessarily get him to greatness if he does win because there is always a chance to stink out the houses that boxing built. Remember Duran was there first and so was Arguello and Sugar Ray Robinson who is miles ahead of PAC and Floyd. On that note I want to say, We humans always tend to conveniently make comparisons in convenience with what is in front of us forgetting the all time greats that overshadow the guys we now have in front of us. For this era I give it to them but all time greats? Remember that movie when the guy said, "Show me the money!" Show me the reason you're supposed to be rated in the ATG"s.

[Gandalf]

745th ATG IMO. I hate hypothetical what if's like this. All conjecture with no real meaning behind them. I guess this, I guess that. It's like guessing at a card, sure you have a chance of getting it right, but nobody really knows how two different ATG's would fare against one another. "Oooh, he is 52". "No, he is 54!".

I say who gives a flying fuck.

[BIG H]

745th ATG IMO. I hate hypothetical what if's like this. All conjecture with no real meaning behind them. I guess this, I guess that. It's like guessing at a card, sure you have a chance of getting it right, but nobody really knows how two different ATG's would fare against one another. "Oooh, he is 52". "No, he is 54!".

I say who gives a flying fuck.

If you don't want to discuss who is better than who and who would win mythical match ups, it really limits the point of having a 'forum'

[Gandalf]

745th ATG IMO. I hate hypothetical what if's like this. All conjecture with no real meaning behind them. I guess this, I guess that. It's like guessing at a card, sure you have a chance of getting it right, but nobody really knows how two different ATG's would fare against one another. "Oooh, he is 52". "No, he is 54!".

I say who gives a flying fuck.

If you don't want to discuss who is better than who and who would win mythical match ups, it really limits the point of having a 'forum'

Quite true.

[Dark Lord Al]

If he passes that drug test and beats mayweather....very high. To quote Roger Mayweather, "if he pass that test, you already know what going to happen he fight my nephew."

I couldn't agree more with Roger on that one....

Am I correct in thinking Roger Mayweather has a weak grasp of the English language?
Was he always like this or is he also a punch drunk FUCKWIT ?

[BIG H]

745th ATG IMO. I hate hypothetical what if's like this. All conjecture with no real meaning behind them. I guess this, I guess that. It's like guessing at a card, sure you have a chance of getting it right, but nobody really knows how two different ATG's would fare against one another. "Oooh, he is 52". "No, he is 54!".

I say who gives a flying fuck.

If you don't want to discuss who is better than who and who would win mythical match ups, it really limits the point of having a 'forum'

Quite true.

Fuck off somewhere else then