Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth

[Kev]

Pac is already an ATG in or outside of american continent even if he fails to defeat Cotto. Galaxy, Fighting Harada, Flash Elorde, or Pancho Villa are nowhere near what Manny has accomplished. C'mon now.

Exactly

[generalbulldog]

Hopkins coming down to 158 at age 39 against Oscar and being a massively big body Middleweight is considered to be an easy thing to do, but Cotto at 29 years old and in his physical prime years coming in at 144 or 145 is considered to be weight draining? That doesn't sound right. That's inconsistent logic.

[Kev]

Hopkins coming down to 158 at age 39 against Oscar and being a massively big body Middleweight is considered to be an easy thing to do, but Cotto at 29 years old and in his physical prime years coming in at 144 or 145 is considered to be weight draining? That doesn't sound right. That's inconsistent logic.

Nope but it is the logic of Saddo's I'm afraid.

Floyd, only two fights removed from fighting at junior middleweight and after a lengthy retirement can move down to 143 lbs without difficulty as well.

Weight draining typically affects only Manny Pacquaio opponents.

Surely this is not self evident to you? You see the 5 ft 8 inch Floyd is so much smaller naturally than the 5 ft 7 inch Cotto and that's why he moved to welterweight over a year before Miguel did.

It's also interesting to note that Cotto weighed in at only 138 lbs against Malignaggi so a Manny fight at 145 still gives him a full seven pounds to play with. And lets not forget he only weighed in at 146 against Clottey.

But this pound is everything

[JazMerkin]

The logic on weight-draining is inconsistent, & in the ODLH-B-Hop fight I had the same criticisms I have now, I don't believe 160 was easy for Hopkins to make, hence why he jumped all the way to LHW after the Taylor fights.

However, using heights to say who is bigger is just wrong, it's like arguing that Mike Tyson is a smaller fighter than Paul Williams because of his height. Floyd is not as muscularly built as Cotto & that's why it's less difficult for him to come down to smaller weights. I think Cotto can make 145 & be fairly effective, however, my issue is that I think Pacquiao CAN beat him at 147 & it would be a more impressive feat. The difference with say the Wright-Hopkins fight is that Wright had never fought at the weight previously or above 160, which is similar to why people are less critical of the JMM-PBF catchweight due to JMM never being above 135. It is hypocritical though that some of the same people who thought it was ridiculous that Floyd didn't come down to 140 are complaining at Pac for bringing Cotto down 2 lbs.

On comparing Pacquiao to the older fighters from Asia like Harada or Tiger from Africa though, I feel one thing that should be noted (& I have said that I do rate Pac a bit higher so if you still think I'm criticizing Pac you go see Miles ) is that they fought at a time when there were same day weigh-ins & less advances in sports nutrition & technology, so being a 2 weight world champion in those times was as impressive as doing it in multiple divisions now. It's not just nostalgia acknowledging how good some of these guys were.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Hopkins coming down to 158 at age 39 against Oscar and being a massively big body Middleweight is considered to be an easy thing to do, but Cotto at 29 years old and in his physical prime years coming in at 144 or 145 is considered to be weight draining? That doesn't sound right. That's inconsistent logic.

I said he was making 160 easy and the fact that he made 158 at 39 supports this. I admit the word easy is an understatement as only a man like Hopkins could make it easy due to his life style... But that's Hopkins. Everyone is different. Its no contardiction to say, for example, that Vargas couldn't get down to 154.

Its all down to the individual. Cotto was struggling at 140 and has thrived at 146.

Back to Hopkins. Also the MANOR in which Hopkins went about moving up to Light Heavyweight strongly suggests that his body was fine at 160. He looked fine in his fights against Taylor.

[JazMerkin]

Hopkins coming down to 158 at age 39 against Oscar and being a massively big body Middleweight is considered to be an easy thing to do, but Cotto at 29 years old and in his physical prime years coming in at 144 or 145 is considered to be weight draining? That doesn't sound right. That's inconsistent logic.

I said he was making 160 easy and the fact that he made 158 at 39 supports this. I admit the word easy is an understatement as only a man like Hopkins could make it easy due to his life style... But that's Hopkins. Everyone is different. Its no contardiction to say, for example, that Vargas couldn't get down to 154.

Its all down to the individual. Cotto was struggling at 140 and has thrived at 146.

Back to Hopkins. Also the MANOR in which Hopkins went about moving up to Light Heavyweight strongly suggests that his body was fine at 160. He looked fine in his fights against Taylor.

Hopkins was drained getting down for both fights against Taylor particularly the 2nd, that's as well-known as the fact that Cotto struggled making 140. Most acknowledge he stayed long past when he should have moved up

[JT Rock]

Depends on the man, I remember a few years ago Larry and Jim talking about Hopkins being proud of his 31in waist and how much of a fanatic he is about his body and how he wont even touch a cookie or cake.

Some fighters turn into homer simpson between fights and then have to boil down at the 11th hour, those are the fighters that typically would be effected adversely.. Guys that stay reasonably around their fighting weight between fights arent going to be killing themselves dropping a few more pounds

[Kev]

Depends on the man, I remember a few years ago Larry and Jim talking about Hopkins being proud of his 31in waist and how much of a fanatic he is about his body and how he wont even touch a cookie or cake.

Some fighters turn into homer simpson between fights and then have to boil down at the 11th hour, those are the fighters that typically would be effected adversely.. Guys that stay reasonably around their fighting weight between fights arent going to be killing themselves dropping a few more pounds

If that's the case those JT don't you agree that if someone, such as for example Oscar cannot drop the weight properly it's basically shame on them, and should reflect on their overal ability as a fighter?

I mean we the truly elite fighters to have the skill set and talent to be able to move up through the weight classes and win despite facing bigger guys should not the same logic extend to those who have the between fights discipline and mental toughness to be able to keep permantly in shape and thus are able to make weights that those who let themselves go cannot?

For example I believe that Hopkins ability to drop to 158, and to keep himself at 160 in such good condition for so long reflects well on him and is one of the reasons why I believe he's a better boxer than Oscar who clearly let a life of indulgance and excess get in the way of his training in his final fights?

[JazMerkin]

Depends on the man, I remember a few years ago Larry and Jim talking about Hopkins being proud of his 31in waist and how much of a fanatic he is about his body and how he wont even touch a cookie or cake.

Some fighters turn into homer simpson between fights and then have to boil down at the 11th hour, those are the fighters that typically would be effected adversely.. Guys that stay reasonably around their fighting weight between fights arent going to be killing themselves dropping a few more pounds

If that's the case those JT don't you agree that if someone, such as for example Oscar cannot drop the weight properly it's basically shame on them, and should reflect on their overal ability as a fighter?

I mean we the truly elite fighters to have the skill set and talent to be able to move up through the weight classes and win despite facing bigger guys should not the same logic extend to those who have the between fights discipline and mental toughness to be able to keep permantly in shape and thus are able to make weights that those who let themselves go cannot?

For example I believe that Hopkins ability to drop to 158, and to keep himself at 160 in such good condition for so long reflects well on him and is one of the reasons why I believe he's a better boxer than Oscar who clearly let a life of indulgance and excess get in the way of his training in his final fights?

I'm guessed that you've never boxed. Not holding that against you, but you wouldn't make statements about dropping weight if you had. There gets to a certain point where you can't reach the weight. For example, when I was 17, I could get down to the Featherweight limit with training, even though I was the same height I am now, as I didn't have the same level musculature as I do now, where I would struggle even with hard training to make the Light-Welterweight limit. Now I'm 23 now & fairly naturally muscled, but just my growth means that making certain weights isn't possible.

Hopkins was able to make it by living a life few of us could, partly due to a regimental attitude drilled into him during his time in prison. However, no way NOW could he make the Middleweight limit. Oscar brought it on himself by choosing to fight at 147 & trying to make the weight the wrong way because naturally his body couldn't get him down there in the same way Campbell's body couldn't get him below 138 for his fight with Funeka. This is not necessarily due to his living outside of fights (Campbell is pretty good, Oscar less so) but age. Oscar was capable of making 150 for his fight with Forbes, but I suspect that was his natural limit. What some guys can do, others can't.

Cotto does not live well outside of fights & I suspect it will catch up with him most probably at the hands of Pacquiao, who I suspect beats him anyway as he's a superior fighter. At the moment that fight is looking far from certain to be signed because Cotto's team are not keen on the catchweight

[JT Rock]

Depends on the man, I remember a few years ago Larry and Jim talking about Hopkins being proud of his 31in waist and how much of a fanatic he is about his body and how he wont even touch a cookie or cake.

Some fighters turn into homer simpson between fights and then have to boil down at the 11th hour, those are the fighters that typically would be effected adversely.. Guys that stay reasonably around their fighting weight between fights arent going to be killing themselves dropping a few more pounds

If that's the case those JT don't you agree that if someone, such as for example Oscar cannot drop the weight properly it's basically shame on them, and should reflect on their overal ability as a fighter?

I mean we the truly elite fighters to have the skill set and talent to be able to move up through the weight classes and win despite facing bigger guys should not the same logic extend to those who have the between fights discipline and mental toughness to be able to keep permantly in shape and thus are able to make weights that those who let themselves go cannot?

For example I believe that Hopkins ability to drop to 158, and to keep himself at 160 in such good condition for so long reflects well on him and is one of the reasons why I believe he's a better boxer than Oscar who clearly let a life of indulgance and excess get in the way of his training in his final fights?

I'm guessed that you've never boxed. Not holding that against you, but you wouldn't make statements about dropping weight if you had. There gets to a certain point where you can't reach the weight. For example, when I was 17, I could get down to the Featherweight limit with training, even though I was the same height I am now, as I didn't have the same level musculature as I do now, where I would struggle even with hard training to make the Light-Welterweight limit. Now I'm 23 now & fairly naturally muscled, but just my growth means that making certain weights isn't possible.

Hopkins was able to make it by living a life few of us could, partly due to a regimental attitude drilled into him during his time in prison. However, no way NOW could he make the Middleweight limit. Oscar brought it on himself by choosing to fight at 147 & trying to make the weight the wrong way because naturally his body couldn't get him down there in the same way Campbell's body couldn't get him below 138 for his fight with Funeka. This is not necessarily due to his living outside of fights (Campbell is pretty good, Oscar less so) but age. Oscar was capable of making 150 for his fight with Forbes, but I suspect that was his natural limit. What some guys can do, others can't.

Cotto does not live well outside of fights & I suspect it will catch up with him most probably at the hands of Pacquiao, who I suspect beats him anyway as he's a superior fighter. At the moment that fight is looking far from certain to be signed because Cotto's team are not keen on the catchweight

Exactly what Jaz said

[Kev]

Depends on the man, I remember a few years ago Larry and Jim talking about Hopkins being proud of his 31in waist and how much of a fanatic he is about his body and how he wont even touch a cookie or cake.

Some fighters turn into homer simpson between fights and then have to boil down at the 11th hour, those are the fighters that typically would be effected adversely.. Guys that stay reasonably around their fighting weight between fights arent going to be killing themselves dropping a few more pounds

If that's the case those JT don't you agree that if someone, such as for example Oscar cannot drop the weight properly it's basically shame on them, and should reflect on their overal ability as a fighter?

I mean we the truly elite fighters to have the skill set and talent to be able to move up through the weight classes and win despite facing bigger guys should not the same logic extend to those who have the between fights discipline and mental toughness to be able to keep permantly in shape and thus are able to make weights that those who let themselves go cannot?

For example I believe that Hopkins ability to drop to 158, and to keep himself at 160 in such good condition for so long reflects well on him and is one of the reasons why I believe he's a better boxer than Oscar who clearly let a life of indulgance and excess get in the way of his training in his final fights?

I'm guessed that you've never boxed. Not holding that against you, but you wouldn't make statements about dropping weight if you had. There gets to a certain point where you can't reach the weight. For example, when I was 17, I could get down to the Featherweight limit with training, even though I was the same height I am now, as I didn't have the same level musculature as I do now, where I would struggle even with hard training to make the Light-Welterweight limit. Now I'm 23 now & fairly naturally muscled, but just my growth means that making certain weights isn't possible.

Hopkins was able to make it by living a life few of us could, partly due to a regimental attitude drilled into him during his time in prison. However, no way NOW could he make the Middleweight limit. Oscar brought it on himself by choosing to fight at 147 & trying to make the weight the wrong way because naturally his body couldn't get him down there in the same way Campbell's body couldn't get him below 138 for his fight with Funeka. This is not necessarily due to his living outside of fights (Campbell is pretty good, Oscar less so) but age. Oscar was capable of making 150 for his fight with Forbes, but I suspect that was his natural limit. What some guys can do, others can't.

Cotto does not live well outside of fights & I suspect it will catch up with him most probably at the hands of Pacquiao, who I suspect beats him anyway as he's a superior fighter. At the moment that fight is looking far from certain to be signed because Cotto's team are not keen on the catchweight

Yes I understand perfectly the fact that everyone has a weight limit beyond which we they cannot safely drop, but that is not what I'm talking about here.

You basically just agreed with me in your post saying Hopkins was able to do it because he was extremely regimental and disciplined and Cotto doesn't live well between fights.

Which brings us back to my original point should we therefore judge the likes of Hopkins and Mosely who were able to lose weight at an advanced age more highly than the likes of Oscar who wernt?

My belief is that if Hopkins had Oscar's body, or Mosely did, they WOULD have made 147 lbs and still fought a damn good fight. That Oscar didn't was likely down to his outside promotional interests and maybe lack of real drive compared to the two.

So in essence do you disagree with me that if Hopkins possesed Cotto's or Oscar's body he would have been able to make the weight limits and fought Pacquaio without it negatively affecting him or not?

If you do agree that Hopkins or Mosely could have done it (well Mosely DID drop to 147) then should we not rate those fighters more highly becuase of this?

[Kev]

Depends on the man, I remember a few years ago Larry and Jim talking about Hopkins being proud of his 31in waist and how much of a fanatic he is about his body and how he wont even touch a cookie or cake.

Some fighters turn into homer simpson between fights and then have to boil down at the 11th hour, those are the fighters that typically would be effected adversely.. Guys that stay reasonably around their fighting weight between fights arent going to be killing themselves dropping a few more pounds

If that's the case those JT don't you agree that if someone, such as for example Oscar cannot drop the weight properly it's basically shame on them, and should reflect on their overal ability as a fighter?

I mean we the truly elite fighters to have the skill set and talent to be able to move up through the weight classes and win despite facing bigger guys should not the same logic extend to those who have the between fights discipline and mental toughness to be able to keep permantly in shape and thus are able to make weights that those who let themselves go cannot?

For example I believe that Hopkins ability to drop to 158, and to keep himself at 160 in such good condition for so long reflects well on him and is one of the reasons why I believe he's a better boxer than Oscar who clearly let a life of indulgance and excess get in the way of his training in his final fights?

I'm guessed that you've never boxed. Not holding that against you, but you wouldn't make statements about dropping weight if you had. There gets to a certain point where you can't reach the weight. For example, when I was 17, I could get down to the Featherweight limit with training, even though I was the same height I am now, as I didn't have the same level musculature as I do now, where I would struggle even with hard training to make the Light-Welterweight limit. Now I'm 23 now & fairly naturally muscled, but just my growth means that making certain weights isn't possible.

Hopkins was able to make it by living a life few of us could, partly due to a regimental attitude drilled into him during his time in prison. However, no way NOW could he make the Middleweight limit. Oscar brought it on himself by choosing to fight at 147 & trying to make the weight the wrong way because naturally his body couldn't get him down there in the same way Campbell's body couldn't get him below 138 for his fight with Funeka. This is not necessarily due to his living outside of fights (Campbell is pretty good, Oscar less so) but age. Oscar was capable of making 150 for his fight with Forbes, but I suspect that was his natural limit. What some guys can do, others can't.

Cotto does not live well outside of fights & I suspect it will catch up with him most probably at the hands of Pacquiao, who I suspect beats him anyway as he's a superior fighter. At the moment that fight is looking far from certain to be signed because Cotto's team are not keen on the catchweight

Also Jaz you bring up another point. In attempting to demonstrate practical experience of this matter over me you have highlighted anther usueful point.

You, (I presume an amatuer boxer) KNOW what your weight limits are and what you can safely make.

Now I may be wrong but I'm guessing you are not a professional athlete with a world class team of trainers and nutritionists around you and 25 plus years of fighting experience to guide you, yet you claim to know your weight limits.

How did Oscar not know his?

If his team were so slack and woefully poor that they undertook to reach a fighting weight that was impossible for him to reach, then once again shame on HIM AND THEM!

It was Oscars responsibility to get down to 147 lbs, he claimed he could do it, his team of highly paid, experienced professionals were on hand to ensure he could do it and if they fucked it up it's his lookout.

[generalbulldog]

If that's the case those JT don't you agree that if someone, such as for example Oscar cannot drop the weight properly it's basically shame on them, and should reflect on their overal ability as a fighter?

I mean we the truly elite fighters to have the skill set and talent to be able to move up through the weight classes and win despite facing bigger guys should not the same logic extend to those who have the between fights discipline and mental toughness to be able to keep permantly in shape and thus are able to make weights that those who let themselves go cannot?

For example I believe that Hopkins ability to drop to 158, and to keep himself at 160 in such good condition for so long reflects well on him and is one of the reasons why I believe he's a better boxer than Oscar who clearly let a life of indulgance and excess get in the way of his training in his final fights?

I'm guessed that you've never boxed. Not holding that against you, but you wouldn't make statements about dropping weight if you had. There gets to a certain point where you can't reach the weight. For example, when I was 17, I could get down to the Featherweight limit with training, even though I was the same height I am now, as I didn't have the same level musculature as I do now, where I would struggle even with hard training to make the Light-Welterweight limit. Now I'm 23 now & fairly naturally muscled, but just my growth means that making certain weights isn't possible.

Hopkins was able to make it by living a life few of us could, partly due to a regimental attitude drilled into him during his time in prison. However, no way NOW could he make the Middleweight limit. Oscar brought it on himself by choosing to fight at 147 & trying to make the weight the wrong way because naturally his body couldn't get him down there in the same way Campbell's body couldn't get him below 138 for his fight with Funeka. This is not necessarily due to his living outside of fights (Campbell is pretty good, Oscar less so) but age. Oscar was capable of making 150 for his fight with Forbes, but I suspect that was his natural limit. What some guys can do, others can't.

Cotto does not live well outside of fights & I suspect it will catch up with him most probably at the hands of Pacquiao, who I suspect beats him anyway as he's a superior fighter. At the moment that fight is looking far from certain to be signed because Cotto's team are not keen on the catchweight

Also Jaz you bring up another point. In attempting to demonstrate practical experience of this matter over me you have highlighted anther usueful point.

You, (I presume an amatuer boxer) KNOW what your weight limits are and what you can safely make.

Now I may be wrong but I'm guessing you are not a professional athlete with a world class team of trainers and nutritionists around you and 25 plus years of fighting experience to guide you, yet you claim to know your weight limits.

How did Oscar not know his?

If his team were so slack and woefully poor that they undertook to reach a fighting weight that was impossible for him to reach, then once again shame on HIM AND THEM!

It was Oscars responsibility to get down to 147 lbs, he claimed he could do it, his team of highly paid, experienced professionals were on hand to ensure he could do it and if they fucked it up it's his lookout.

That's a good point you make on Oscar. Not to mentioned Oscar is by far the richest boxer on the planet. I find it inconceivable that the richest boxer and one of the richest athletes miscalculated all the risks with the Pacquiao fight considering he has the best team money can buy at his disposal with regards to nutrition, diet, etc.

[JT Rock]

If that's the case those JT don't you agree that if someone, such as for example Oscar cannot drop the weight properly it's basically shame on them, and should reflect on their overal ability as a fighter?

I mean we the truly elite fighters to have the skill set and talent to be able to move up through the weight classes and win despite facing bigger guys should not the same logic extend to those who have the between fights discipline and mental toughness to be able to keep permantly in shape and thus are able to make weights that those who let themselves go cannot?

For example I believe that Hopkins ability to drop to 158, and to keep himself at 160 in such good condition for so long reflects well on him and is one of the reasons why I believe he's a better boxer than Oscar who clearly let a life of indulgance and excess get in the way of his training in his final fights?

I'm guessed that you've never boxed. Not holding that against you, but you wouldn't make statements about dropping weight if you had. There gets to a certain point where you can't reach the weight. For example, when I was 17, I could get down to the Featherweight limit with training, even though I was the same height I am now, as I didn't have the same level musculature as I do now, where I would struggle even with hard training to make the Light-Welterweight limit. Now I'm 23 now & fairly naturally muscled, but just my growth means that making certain weights isn't possible.

Hopkins was able to make it by living a life few of us could, partly due to a regimental attitude drilled into him during his time in prison. However, no way NOW could he make the Middleweight limit. Oscar brought it on himself by choosing to fight at 147 & trying to make the weight the wrong way because naturally his body couldn't get him down there in the same way Campbell's body couldn't get him below 138 for his fight with Funeka. This is not necessarily due to his living outside of fights (Campbell is pretty good, Oscar less so) but age. Oscar was capable of making 150 for his fight with Forbes, but I suspect that was his natural limit. What some guys can do, others can't.

Cotto does not live well outside of fights & I suspect it will catch up with him most probably at the hands of Pacquiao, who I suspect beats him anyway as he's a superior fighter. At the moment that fight is looking far from certain to be signed because Cotto's team are not keen on the catchweight

Also Jaz you bring up another point. In attempting to demonstrate practical experience of this matter over me you have highlighted anther usueful point.

You, (I presume an amatuer boxer) KNOW what your weight limits are and what you can safely make.

Now I may be wrong but I'm guessing you are not a professional athlete with a world class team of trainers and nutritionists around you and 25 plus years of fighting experience to guide you, yet you claim to know your weight limits.

How did Oscar not know his?

If his team were so slack and woefully poor that they undertook to reach a fighting weight that was impossible for him to reach, then once again shame on HIM AND THEM!

It was Oscars responsibility to get down to 147 lbs, he claimed he could do it, his team of highly paid, experienced professionals were on hand to ensure he could do it and if they fucked it up it's his lookout.

Oscar had probably over 10 million reasons to roll the dice on getting down to a functional 147, if you catch my drift

[generalbulldog]

I'm guessed that you've never boxed. Not holding that against you, but you wouldn't make statements about dropping weight if you had. There gets to a certain point where you can't reach the weight. For example, when I was 17, I could get down to the Featherweight limit with training, even though I was the same height I am now, as I didn't have the same level musculature as I do now, where I would struggle even with hard training to make the Light-Welterweight limit. Now I'm 23 now & fairly naturally muscled, but just my growth means that making certain weights isn't possible.

Hopkins was able to make it by living a life few of us could, partly due to a regimental attitude drilled into him during his time in prison. However, no way NOW could he make the Middleweight limit. Oscar brought it on himself by choosing to fight at 147 & trying to make the weight the wrong way because naturally his body couldn't get him down there in the same way Campbell's body couldn't get him below 138 for his fight with Funeka. This is not necessarily due to his living outside of fights (Campbell is pretty good, Oscar less so) but age. Oscar was capable of making 150 for his fight with Forbes, but I suspect that was his natural limit. What some guys can do, others can't.

Cotto does not live well outside of fights & I suspect it will catch up with him most probably at the hands of Pacquiao, who I suspect beats him anyway as he's a superior fighter. At the moment that fight is looking far from certain to be signed because Cotto's team are not keen on the catchweight

Also Jaz you bring up another point. In attempting to demonstrate practical experience of this matter over me you have highlighted anther usueful point.

You, (I presume an amatuer boxer) KNOW what your weight limits are and what you can safely make.

Now I may be wrong but I'm guessing you are not a professional athlete with a world class team of trainers and nutritionists around you and 25 plus years of fighting experience to guide you, yet you claim to know your weight limits.

How did Oscar not know his?

If his team were so slack and woefully poor that they undertook to reach a fighting weight that was impossible for him to reach, then once again shame on HIM AND THEM!

It was Oscars responsibility to get down to 147 lbs, he claimed he could do it, his team of highly paid, experienced professionals were on hand to ensure he could do it and if they fucked it up it's his lookout.

Oscar had probably over 10 million reasons to roll the dice on getting down to a functional 147, if you catch my drift

And yet him and 99.99% of the people out there predicted a knockout on the former flyweight champion. I think it was 31 out of 32 boxing experts that predicted a ko victory. 20/20 hindsight is something else. Let's not act like everyone knew it was going to be an easy victory for Manny.