Hopkins p4p ranking?

[Kev]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

Well if you are only going to compare recent form then Hopkins is undefeated having gone 4-0-1 in his last five.

Martinez is 3-1-1

So your argument that past achievements don't count makes no sense either. I presume Hopkins would have been in your p4p prior to fighting Joe? He should have been coming off a majestic win over Tarver and he only lost a disputed decision to Calzaghe, by unanimous consensus the p4p number 3 at that time.

Since then he's not lost a fight and scored two outstanding wins against Pavlik and Pascal, and arguably beat Pascal twice.

Martinez has only fought one really good fighter Paul Williams (who had already been beaten by a B list fighter in Carlos Quintana) and he went 1-1 with him.

Hopkins opposition has simply been better.

Did you pursposely ignore that Martinez beat a far superior Pavlik?

Let me show you again - Pavlik? You are not seriously suggesting Pavlik's best weight has not been 160, right? The weight where he became lineal champ. The weight that he'd never LOST at until meeting Martinez. The weight he IMMEDIATELY moved backdown to after the Hopkins fight. A fight in which Hopkins weighed 185 on the night to Pavliks 176 wearing a tracksuit and trainers. Clearly Pavlik wasn't ready for that weight jump.

Of course Hopkins was rated P4P when beating Tarver and losing to Calzaghe. His opponents either side were Winky and Pavlik. However, that was over three years ago. You have to maintain a level of form, especially using your criteria. Hopkins current level of form is no better than many other fighters, and certainly not in Martinez league.

Show me 5-10 posters that think Hopkins last five opponents are stronger than Martinez? That is ridiculous.

Please explain to me this as you ignored me before...

if Pavliks best weight was 160lbs and he's no good at 170 why is he fighting as a supermiddleweight now and why did he weigh in at 170lbs for his last fight

Kelly Pavlik - Boxer

Check yourself, he came in OVER WEIGHT at 170 lbs.

Now why he would voluntarily come in at a weight he cannot perform at when he's trying to rebuild his career?

Hopkins beat an undefeated prime Pavlik. Martinez beat a psychologically beaten Pavlik at a weight he could no longer comfortably make.

Again please answer me this. If Pavliks ideal weight is 160 lb why is he choosing to fight at 170?

Also regarding maintaining a level of form. Remind me of all the great fighters Nonito Donaire beat between knocking out Vic Darchinyan and then Montiel? It seemed to me he beat up on a lot of little part timers from the lighter weight classes who he outweighed by about a stone and in some cases was almost a foot taller.

What Fenster is arguing, if I'm not mistaken, is that Pavlik was at his best when he was at 160. I agree. The reason is that at 6'1 1/2 with a long reach, he was bigger and longer than most middleweights. When he stepped up in weight, his advantages in height and reach disappeared. That is why he isn't as quality of a fighter now. At middleweight, he could afford to be a plodding fighter against most opponents because he was usually so much bigger, but not so much anymore.

It really doesn't matter why he stepped up in weight. There is no way to know. It could be because he couldn't make weight or it could be because he wanted a bigger money fight and there wasn't one at 160 or it could be because he is just lazy. Either way, Pavlik's advantages aren't as pronounced at 170. Take a look at his most recent fight, he should have dominated that guy. The opponent was hand-picked for Pavlik's come-back fight, and Pavlik didn't look very good. Moreover, if you look at his biggest victories, they came at the middleweight limit.

I would argue that Pavlik was at his best, before he fought Bernard Hopkins and got mentally destroyed, a la Lacy against Joe Calzaghe.

Hopkins completely shattered the Pavlik myth and it broke him. Looking at his earlier fights Jermain Taylor could well have won their first fight by KO with a different referee other than Steve Smoger in there.

He just had never fought anyone as good as Hopkins when they met, and Hopkins schooled him and embarrassed him.

Martinez fought a Pavlik that had been beaten and wasn't the same fighter as before.

Look at the criticisms Manny has had for beating Mosley, Oscar and Hatton. All Floyd opponents, he beat them all after, and none of them were as good as when Floyd fought them.

Surely Manny's win over Hatton meant much more than Floyds as it was in the weight class where he was undefeated?

People pick and change to suit their point of view? Manny is cheating by making catchweights, Martinez is a legend, doesn't matter that two of his last three fights were catchweights. Floyd and Hopkins just bring up smaller guys. Doesn't matter that in his last fight Martinez just brought up a smaller guy.


There's no consistency in peoples arguments. If you want to judge the p4p rankings based on recent achievements only then Hopkins is 4-0-1 whereas Martinez is 3-1-1.

If you want to take a longer view then Hopkins might well be approaching the top 20 greatest fighters of all time.

Martinez.....well he did knock out Paul Williams in style.

You believe Pavlik is at his best at 170 and I believe he was at his best at 160. We can agree to disagree then.

So why is he fighting at 170 voluntarily these days then?

Please explain this. He's best at 160 but he's moved up to supermiddle and last time out weighed 170 again?

[Fenster]

Pavlik has moved up because he's lost his title and there are no big fights left for him at 160. He is also three years older since facing Hopkins and should be more comfortable with the weight gain.

He has been a pro for 11 years. In that time he's won 36 contests weighing below 170. So please explain how 170, a weight he's made twice in 11 years, losing one and struggling to a PTS victory, is his best weight?

Pavlik's record at 170 = wins 1 loses 1
Pavliks record below 170 = wins 36 loses 1

Have you gone completely mad? Or winding us up?

[Kev]

Pavlik has moved up because he's lost his title and there are no big fights left for him at 160. He is also three years older since facing Hopkins and should be more comfortable with the weight gain.

He has been a pro for 11 years. In that time he's won 36 contests weighing below 170. So please explain how 170, a weight he's made twice in 11 years, losing one and struggling to a PTS victory, is his best weight?

Pavlik's record at 170 = wins 1 loses 1
Pavliks record below 170 = wins 36 loses 1

Have you gone completely mad? Or winding us up?

A little factor called the 'quality of opposition' Fenst.

Hopkins would have beat him at 160 too.

[Fenster]

Pavlik has moved up because he's lost his title and there are no big fights left for him at 160. He is also three years older since facing Hopkins and should be more comfortable with the weight gain.

He has been a pro for 11 years. In that time he's won 36 contests weighing below 170. So please explain how 170, a weight he's made twice in 11 years, losing one and struggling to a PTS victory, is his best weight?

Pavlik's record at 170 = wins 1 loses 1
Pavliks record below 170 = wins 36 loses 1

Have you gone completely mad? Or winding us up?

A little factor called the 'quality of opposition' Fenst.

Hopkins would have beat him at 160 too.

I agree. Hopkins would have beat him at any weight.

That doesn't mean Pavlik's best weight was 170 though.

[Kev]

Pavlik has moved up because he's lost his title and there are no big fights left for him at 160. He is also three years older since facing Hopkins and should be more comfortable with the weight gain.

He has been a pro for 11 years. In that time he's won 36 contests weighing below 170. So please explain how 170, a weight he's made twice in 11 years, losing one and struggling to a PTS victory, is his best weight?

Pavlik's record at 170 = wins 1 loses 1
Pavliks record below 170 = wins 36 loses 1

Have you gone completely mad? Or winding us up?

A little factor called the 'quality of opposition' Fenst.

Hopkins would have beat him at 160 too.

I agree. Hopkins would have beat him at any weight.

That doesn't mean Pavlik's best weight was 170 though.

I guess it is now.

[Rantcatrat]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

Well if you are only going to compare recent form then Hopkins is undefeated having gone 4-0-1 in his last five.

Martinez is 3-1-1

So your argument that past achievements don't count makes no sense either. I presume Hopkins would have been in your p4p prior to fighting Joe? He should have been coming off a majestic win over Tarver and he only lost a disputed decision to Calzaghe, by unanimous consensus the p4p number 3 at that time.

Since then he's not lost a fight and scored two outstanding wins against Pavlik and Pascal, and arguably beat Pascal twice.

Martinez has only fought one really good fighter Paul Williams (who had already been beaten by a B list fighter in Carlos Quintana) and he went 1-1 with him.

Hopkins opposition has simply been better.

Did you pursposely ignore that Martinez beat a far superior Pavlik?

Let me show you again - Pavlik? You are not seriously suggesting Pavlik's best weight has not been 160, right? The weight where he became lineal champ. The weight that he'd never LOST at until meeting Martinez. The weight he IMMEDIATELY moved backdown to after the Hopkins fight. A fight in which Hopkins weighed 185 on the night to Pavliks 176 wearing a tracksuit and trainers. Clearly Pavlik wasn't ready for that weight jump.

Of course Hopkins was rated P4P when beating Tarver and losing to Calzaghe. His opponents either side were Winky and Pavlik. However, that was over three years ago. You have to maintain a level of form, especially using your criteria. Hopkins current level of form is no better than many other fighters, and certainly not in Martinez league.

Show me 5-10 posters that think Hopkins last five opponents are stronger than Martinez? That is ridiculous.

Please explain to me this as you ignored me before...

if Pavliks best weight was 160lbs and he's no good at 170 why is he fighting as a supermiddleweight now and why did he weigh in at 170lbs for his last fight

Kelly Pavlik - Boxer

Check yourself, he came in OVER WEIGHT at 170 lbs.

Now why he would voluntarily come in at a weight he cannot perform at when he's trying to rebuild his career?

Hopkins beat an undefeated prime Pavlik. Martinez beat a psychologically beaten Pavlik at a weight he could no longer comfortably make.

Again please answer me this. If Pavliks ideal weight is 160 lb why is he choosing to fight at 170?

Also regarding maintaining a level of form. Remind me of all the great fighters Nonito Donaire beat between knocking out Vic Darchinyan and then Montiel? It seemed to me he beat up on a lot of little part timers from the lighter weight classes who he outweighed by about a stone and in some cases was almost a foot taller.

What Fenster is arguing, if I'm not mistaken, is that Pavlik was at his best when he was at 160. I agree. The reason is that at 6'1 1/2 with a long reach, he was bigger and longer than most middleweights. When he stepped up in weight, his advantages in height and reach disappeared. That is why he isn't as quality of a fighter now. At middleweight, he could afford to be a plodding fighter against most opponents because he was usually so much bigger, but not so much anymore.

It really doesn't matter why he stepped up in weight. There is no way to know. It could be because he couldn't make weight or it could be because he wanted a bigger money fight and there wasn't one at 160 or it could be because he is just lazy. Either way, Pavlik's advantages aren't as pronounced at 170. Take a look at his most recent fight, he should have dominated that guy. The opponent was hand-picked for Pavlik's come-back fight, and Pavlik didn't look very good. Moreover, if you look at his biggest victories, they came at the middleweight limit.

I would argue that Pavlik was at his best, before he fought Bernard Hopkins and got mentally destroyed, a la Lacy against Joe Calzaghe.

Hopkins completely shattered the Pavlik myth and it broke him. Looking at his earlier fights Jermain Taylor could well have won their first fight by KO with a different referee other than Steve Smoger in there.

He just had never fought anyone as good as Hopkins when they met, and Hopkins schooled him and embarrassed him.

Martinez fought a Pavlik that had been beaten and wasn't the same fighter as before.

Look at the criticisms Manny has had for beating Mosley, Oscar and Hatton. All Floyd opponents, he beat them all after, and none of them were as good as when Floyd fought them.

Surely Manny's win over Hatton meant much more than Floyds as it was in the weight class where he was undefeated?

People pick and change to suit their point of view? Manny is cheating by making catchweights, Martinez is a legend, doesn't matter that two of his last three fights were catchweights. Floyd and Hopkins just bring up smaller guys. Doesn't matter that in his last fight Martinez just brought up a smaller guy.


There's no consistency in peoples arguments. If you want to judge the p4p rankings based on recent achievements only then Hopkins is 4-0-1 whereas Martinez is 3-1-1.

If you want to take a longer view then Hopkins might well be approaching the top 20 greatest fighters of all time.

Martinez.....well he did knock out Paul Williams in style.

You believe Pavlik is at his best at 170 and I believe he was at his best at 160. We can agree to disagree then.

So why is he fighting at 170 voluntarily these days then?

Please explain this. He's best at 160 but he's moved up to supermiddle and last time out weighed 170 again?

I've already given my two cents on this. Basically, there is no way to know. My guess is as good as yours: (1) there is more money in the super middleweight division and Pavlik, knowing he is passed his prime, plans on getting one more big pay day before riding off into the sunset, there isn't anyone at 160 who could provide him that pay day other than Martinez, and he doesn't want to fight Martinez again, or (2) he is lazy and not taking the time to train and get down to his optimal weight. Accordingly, his move to 170 was motivated by money or indolence, not because he is best at that weight.

There is no way that after his last showing at 170, and his showing against Hopkins at 170, that his team believes he is as effective at 170 as he was when he was at 160 knocking people out all over the place. Right?

My position as I said before is that Pavlik's main advantages were his size and reach, and that as he goes up in weight, he'll no longer have those advantages, and he'll be less effective. I could be wrong. He could land a shot against a good SMW and win, I just doubt it because they are his size.