Hopkins p4p ranking?

[Fenster]

Haha so now we're changing official results to back up our arguments eh. Boxrec tells me Cintron D12, sorry about that.

As for the first Williams fight being a robbery, again your just having to exaggerate to make a case. I can do that too, Hopkins Calzaghe loss = robbery, Pascal draw = robbery.

As for your other points. Pavlik 10lbs above prime weight? Really? Tell me what weighed in his last fight then? I think it was 170. Although I guess that only became his prime weight after Martine beat him and somehow after that he became a 10 lb heavier man. Thyroid problem perhaps...

As for dragging people up beyond their weight, how what was dziniruks rating as a middleweight? Oh I forget, he hadnt ever fought there, being a career light middle. This was different to when Hopkins drags guys up though because you have to right I guess.

So to summise. Martinez drew with a Margarito ko victim. He beat Pavlik coming off a lopsided loss to Hopkins. He knocked out Paul Williams (a Quintana victim) but also was beat in their first fight, and he defended his title against a completely unknown 154lb champ who for some reason is regarded as some kind of yardstick for p4p greatness.

Martinez has a grwat win over Williams to go with a defeat, and a decent win over an alcholic Pavlik who had been mentally destroyed by Hopkins.

Beating Tarver, Pavlik and Pascal is simply better than Williams, Pavlik and Dzinziruk imo.

I hope Martinex mans up and fights Hopkins at 170. That would be a great catchweight limit, an d then pops can show you how an all time legend performs against Martinez? hands down, I dont need to defend style...

You've just proved my point. To make a case for Hopkins you need to delve back into his history. You need Tarver, Calzaghe, Winky. Because his last 5 fights, which spans a 2 1/2 year period, is clearly not half as impressive as Martinez.

The majority had Martinez winning the first Williams fight, however, there is no shame in losing a razor close PTS decision to a P4P rated fighter. Especially when you emphatically DESTROY the same opponent in the rematch.

As for Cintron - there's not a person on earth that doesn't think Martinez was ROBBED not once but TWICE!!! He wins by KO when the ref counts Cintron out, then wins a clear UD, even with a ridiculous point deduction in the 12th round, yet ends up with a draw. Unbelievable.

Pavlik? You are not seriously suggesting Pavlik's best weight has not been 160, right? The weight where he became lineal champ. The weight that he'd never LOST in until meeting Martinez. The weight he IMMEDIATELY moved backdown to after the Hopkins fight. A fight in which Hopkins weighed 185lbs on the night to Pavliks 176 wearing a tracksuit and trainers. Clearly Pavlik wasn't ready for that weight jump.

With hindsight, Hopkins win over Pavlik isn't as impressive as Martinez because his "old" age was clearly not as big a factor as originally thought.

Dzinziruk? He put on 4lb to challenge the lineal middleweight champion. Both weighing 158. No it's not a "great" win. However, knocking out an unbeaten, never been floored, long standing "world" champion is far more impressive than scoring a PTS win over an ancient shot-to-shit fighter coming off a FIRST round KO loss and a borderline journeyman that has failed everytime he's stepped up.

So to summise - Martinez currently owns Hopkins. Fact.

[HattonTheHammer]

Haha so now we're changing official results to back up our arguments eh. Boxrec tells me Cintron D12, sorry about that.

As for the first Williams fight being a robbery, again your just having to exaggerate to make a case. I can do that too, Hopkins Calzaghe loss = robbery, Pascal draw = robbery.

As for your other points. Pavlik 10lbs above prime weight? Really? Tell me what weighed in his last fight then? I think it was 170. Although I guess that only became his prime weight after Martine beat him and somehow after that he became a 10 lb heavier man. Thyroid problem perhaps...

As for dragging people up beyond their weight, how what was dziniruks rating as a middleweight? Oh I forget, he hadnt ever fought there, being a career light middle. This was different to when Hopkins drags guys up though because you have to right I guess.

So to summise. Martinez drew with a Margarito ko victim. He beat Pavlik coming off a lopsided loss to Hopkins. He knocked out Paul Williams (a Quintana victim) but also was beat in their first fight, and he defended his title against a completely unknown 154lb champ who for some reason is regarded as some kind of yardstick for p4p greatness.

Martinez has a grwat win over Williams to go with a defeat, and a decent win over an alcholic Pavlik who had been mentally destroyed by Hopkins.

Beating Tarver, Pavlik and Pascal is simply better than Williams, Pavlik and Dzinziruk imo.

I hope Martinex mans up and fights Hopkins at 170. That would be a great catchweight limit, an d then pops can show you how an all time legend performs against Martinez? hands down, I dont need to defend style...

You've just proved my point. To make a case for Hopkins you need to delve back into his history. You need Tarver, Calzaghe, Winky. Because his last 5 fights, which spans a 2 1/2 year period, is clearly not half as impressive as Martinez.

The majority had Martinez winning the first Williams fight, however, there is no shame in losing a razor close PTS decision to a P4P rated fighter. Especially when you emphatically DESTROY the same opponent in the rematch.

As for Cintron - there's not a person on earth that doesn't think Martinez was ROBBED not once but TWICE!!! He wins by KO when the ref counts Cintron out, then wins a clear UD, even with a ridiculous point deduction in the 12th round, yet ends up with a draw. Unbelievable.

Pavlik? You are not seriously suggesting Pavlik's best weight has not been 160, right? The weight where he became lineal champ. The weight that he'd never LOST in until meeting Martinez. The weight he IMMEDIATELY moved backdown to after the Hopkins fight. A fight in which Hopkins weighed 185lbs on fight night to Pavliks 176 wearing a tracksuit and trainers. Clearly Pavlik wasn't ready for that weight jump.

With hindsight, Hopkins win over Pavlik isn't as impressive as Martinez because his "old" age was clearly not as big a factor as originally thought.

Dzinziruk? He put on 4lb to challenge the lineal middleweight champion. Both weighing 158. No it's not a "great" win? However, knocking out an unbeaten, never been floored, long standing "world" champion is far more impressive than scoring a PTS win over an ancient shot-to-shit fighter coming off a FIRST round KO loss and a borderline journeyman that has failed everytime he's stepped up.

So to summise - Martinez currently owns Hopkins. Fact.

that would be a superfight if ever i saw one

I honestly can just see hopkins schooling bad chad and showing him how a real legend gets his business done before calling it a day

[Fenster]

By the way Bilbo - just because you've only recently discovered Martinez doesn't mean everyone else just has.

About ten years ago Martinez was fighting live on Sky Sports duffing up Richard Williams and Adrian Stone. It was clear from then he was a potential world champion. Having a loss to a future "world" champion and P4P fighter in Margarito is no shame either. Martinez is Argentinian, so has no western fanbase and therefore has spent his career travelling to seek the best opportunites. Finally he has got the recognition he deserves.

[badr_hari]

Martinez currently owns Hopkins. Fact.

And Pacquiao owns Klitschko. Right? Are you happy now?
That's why P4P is bullshit and means NOTHING. It is the only (and fantasy) way to rank Martinez, Pacquiao and other manikins above the undisputed world light heavyweight champion.

[miron_lang]

Martinez currently owns Hopkins. Fact.

And Pacquiao owns Klitschko. Right? Are you happy now?
That's why P4P is bullshit and means NOTHING. It is the only (and fantasy) way to rank Martinez, Pacquiao and other manikins above the undisputed world light heavyweight champion.

They are debating on who has the better resume 'lately' to some forum members that is what pound for pound is. some make it last five fights some last so and so fights. but originally pound for pound is about who will own who if they are the same size.

Martinez and Hopkins are 2 divisions apart 160 and 175. Hopkins is clearly bigger but their size is quite similar.

They can settle this in the ring actually maybe at 168. Winner faces Bute.

[badr_hari]

originally pound for pound is about who will own who if they are the same size.

Martinez and Hopkins are 2 divisions apart 160 and 175. Hopkins is clearly bigger but their size is quite similar.

They can settle this in the ring actually maybe at 168. Winner faces Bute.

Well if the part in bold means P4P, than it makes sense, since we can talk about pure skills, not about what they have accomplished. Size advantage aside, Hopkins outclasses Martinez almost in every skill element, so its not like Martinez can be put above him even with this criteria.

[miron_lang]

Well if the part in bold means P4P, than it makes sense, since we can talk about pure skills, not about what they have accomplished. Size advantage aside, Hopkins outclasses Martinez almost in every skill element, so its not like Martinez can be put above him even with this criteria.

Its equally subjective. But with that criteria. Hopkins beats Martinez now at 168.

Heck. (2001) 160lbs Hopkins totally destroys (2011) 160lbs Sergio Martinez. I dont think anybody will argue with that.

[Fenster]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

[Kev]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

Well if you are only going to compare recent form then Hopkins is undefeated having gone 4-0-1 in his last five.

Martinez is 3-1-1

So your argument that past achievements don't count makes no sense either. I presume Hopkins would have been in your p4p prior to fighting Joe? He should have been coming off a majestic win over Tarver and he only lost a disputed decision to Calzaghe, by unanimous consensus the p4p number 3 at that time.

Since then he's not lost a fight and scored two outstanding wins against Pavlik and Pascal, and arguably beat Pascal twice.

Martinez has only fought one really good fighter, Paul Williams (who had already been beaten by a B list fighter in Carlos Quintana) and he went 1-1 with him.

Hopkins opposition has simply been better.

[Fenster]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

Well if you are only going to compare recent form then Hopkins is undefeated having gone 4-0-1 in his last five.

Martinez is 3-1-1

So your argument that past achievements don't count makes no sense either. I presume Hopkins would have been in your p4p prior to fighting Joe? He should have been coming off a majestic win over Tarver and he only lost a disputed decision to Calzaghe, by unanimous consensus the p4p number 3 at that time.

Since then he's not lost a fight and scored two outstanding wins against Pavlik and Pascal, and arguably beat Pascal twice.

Martinez has only fought one really good fighter Paul Williams (who had already been beaten by a B list fighter in Carlos Quintana) and he went 1-1 with him.

Hopkins opposition has simply been better.

Did you pursposely ignore that Martinez beat a far superior Pavlik?

Let me show you again - Pavlik? You are not seriously suggesting Pavlik's best weight has not been 160, right? The weight where he became lineal champ. The weight that he'd never LOST at until meeting Martinez. The weight he IMMEDIATELY moved backdown to after the Hopkins fight. A fight in which Hopkins weighed 185 on the night to Pavliks 176 wearing a tracksuit and trainers. Clearly Pavlik wasn't ready for that weight jump.

Of course Hopkins was rated P4P when beating Tarver and losing to Calzaghe. His opponents either side were Winky and Pavlik. However, that was over three years ago. You have to maintain a level of form, especially using your criteria. Hopkins current level of form is no better than many other fighters, and certainly not in Martinez league.

Show me 5-10 posters that think Hopkins last five opponents are stronger than Martinez? That is ridiculous.

[Kev]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

Well if you are only going to compare recent form then Hopkins is undefeated having gone 4-0-1 in his last five.

Martinez is 3-1-1

So your argument that past achievements don't count makes no sense either. I presume Hopkins would have been in your p4p prior to fighting Joe? He should have been coming off a majestic win over Tarver and he only lost a disputed decision to Calzaghe, by unanimous consensus the p4p number 3 at that time.

Since then he's not lost a fight and scored two outstanding wins against Pavlik and Pascal, and arguably beat Pascal twice.

Martinez has only fought one really good fighter Paul Williams (who had already been beaten by a B list fighter in Carlos Quintana) and he went 1-1 with him.

Hopkins opposition has simply been better.

Did you pursposely ignore that Martinez beat a far superior Pavlik?

Let me show you again - Pavlik? You are not seriously suggesting Pavlik's best weight has not been 160, right? The weight where he became lineal champ. The weight that he'd never LOST at until meeting Martinez. The weight he IMMEDIATELY moved backdown to after the Hopkins fight. A fight in which Hopkins weighed 185 on the night to Pavliks 176 wearing a tracksuit and trainers. Clearly Pavlik wasn't ready for that weight jump.

Of course Hopkins was rated P4P when beating Tarver and losing to Calzaghe. His opponents either side were Winky and Pavlik. However, that was over three years ago. You have to maintain a level of form, especially using your criteria. Hopkins current level of form is no better than many other fighters, and certainly not in Martinez league.

Show me 5-10 posters that think Hopkins last five opponents are stronger than Martinez? That is ridiculous.

Please explain to me this as you ignored me before...

if Pavliks best weight was 160lbs and he's no good at 170 why is he fighting as a supermiddleweight now and why did he weigh in at 170lbs for his last fight

Kelly Pavlik - Boxer

Check yourself, he came in OVER WEIGHT at 170 lbs.

Now why he would voluntarily come in at a weight he cannot perform at when he's trying to rebuild his career?

Hopkins beat an undefeated prime Pavlik. Martinez beat a psychologically beaten Pavlik at a weight he could no longer comfortably make.

Again please answer me this. If Pavliks ideal weight is 160 lb why is he choosing to fight at 170?

Also regarding maintaining a level of form. Remind me of all the great fighters Nonito Donaire beat between knocking out Vic Darchinyan and then Montiel? It seemed to me he beat up on a lot of little part timers from the lighter weight classes who he outweighed by about a stone and in some cases was almost a foot taller.

[Rantcatrat]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

Well if you are only going to compare recent form then Hopkins is undefeated having gone 4-0-1 in his last five.

Martinez is 3-1-1

So your argument that past achievements don't count makes no sense either. I presume Hopkins would have been in your p4p prior to fighting Joe? He should have been coming off a majestic win over Tarver and he only lost a disputed decision to Calzaghe, by unanimous consensus the p4p number 3 at that time.

Since then he's not lost a fight and scored two outstanding wins against Pavlik and Pascal, and arguably beat Pascal twice.

Martinez has only fought one really good fighter Paul Williams (who had already been beaten by a B list fighter in Carlos Quintana) and he went 1-1 with him.

Hopkins opposition has simply been better.

Did you pursposely ignore that Martinez beat a far superior Pavlik?

Let me show you again - Pavlik? You are not seriously suggesting Pavlik's best weight has not been 160, right? The weight where he became lineal champ. The weight that he'd never LOST at until meeting Martinez. The weight he IMMEDIATELY moved backdown to after the Hopkins fight. A fight in which Hopkins weighed 185 on the night to Pavliks 176 wearing a tracksuit and trainers. Clearly Pavlik wasn't ready for that weight jump.

Of course Hopkins was rated P4P when beating Tarver and losing to Calzaghe. His opponents either side were Winky and Pavlik. However, that was over three years ago. You have to maintain a level of form, especially using your criteria. Hopkins current level of form is no better than many other fighters, and certainly not in Martinez league.

Show me 5-10 posters that think Hopkins last five opponents are stronger than Martinez? That is ridiculous.

Please explain to me this as you ignored me before...

if Pavliks best weight was 160lbs and he's no good at 170 why is he fighting as a supermiddleweight now and why did he weigh in at 170lbs for his last fight

Kelly Pavlik - Boxer

Check yourself, he came in OVER WEIGHT at 170 lbs.

Now why he would voluntarily come in at a weight he cannot perform at when he's trying to rebuild his career?

Hopkins beat an undefeated prime Pavlik. Martinez beat a psychologically beaten Pavlik at a weight he could no longer comfortably make.

Again please answer me this. If Pavliks ideal weight is 160 lb why is he choosing to fight at 170?

Also regarding maintaining a level of form. Remind me of all the great fighters Nonito Donaire beat between knocking out Vic Darchinyan and then Montiel? It seemed to me he beat up on a lot of little part timers from the lighter weight classes who he outweighed by about a stone and in some cases was almost a foot taller.

What Fenster is arguing, if I'm not mistaken, is that Pavlik was at his best when he was at 160. I agree. The reason is that at 6'1 1/2 with a long reach, he was bigger and longer than most middleweights. When he stepped up in weight, his advantages in height and reach disappeared. That is why he isn't as quality of a fighter now. At middleweight, he could afford to be a plodding fighter against most opponents because he was usually so much bigger, but not so much anymore.

It really doesn't matter why he stepped up in weight. There is no way to know. It could be because he couldn't make weight or it could be because he wanted a bigger money fight and there wasn't one at 160 or it could be because he is just lazy. Either way, Pavlik's advantages aren't as pronounced at 170. Take a look at his most recent fight, he should have dominated that guy. The opponent was hand-picked for Pavlik's come-back fight, and Pavlik didn't look very good. Moreover, if you look at his biggest victories, they came at the middleweight limit.

[Kev]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

Well if you are only going to compare recent form then Hopkins is undefeated having gone 4-0-1 in his last five.

Martinez is 3-1-1

So your argument that past achievements don't count makes no sense either. I presume Hopkins would have been in your p4p prior to fighting Joe? He should have been coming off a majestic win over Tarver and he only lost a disputed decision to Calzaghe, by unanimous consensus the p4p number 3 at that time.

Since then he's not lost a fight and scored two outstanding wins against Pavlik and Pascal, and arguably beat Pascal twice.

Martinez has only fought one really good fighter Paul Williams (who had already been beaten by a B list fighter in Carlos Quintana) and he went 1-1 with him.

Hopkins opposition has simply been better.

Did you pursposely ignore that Martinez beat a far superior Pavlik?

Let me show you again - Pavlik? You are not seriously suggesting Pavlik's best weight has not been 160, right? The weight where he became lineal champ. The weight that he'd never LOST at until meeting Martinez. The weight he IMMEDIATELY moved backdown to after the Hopkins fight. A fight in which Hopkins weighed 185 on the night to Pavliks 176 wearing a tracksuit and trainers. Clearly Pavlik wasn't ready for that weight jump.

Of course Hopkins was rated P4P when beating Tarver and losing to Calzaghe. His opponents either side were Winky and Pavlik. However, that was over three years ago. You have to maintain a level of form, especially using your criteria. Hopkins current level of form is no better than many other fighters, and certainly not in Martinez league.

Show me 5-10 posters that think Hopkins last five opponents are stronger than Martinez? That is ridiculous.

Please explain to me this as you ignored me before...

if Pavliks best weight was 160lbs and he's no good at 170 why is he fighting as a supermiddleweight now and why did he weigh in at 170lbs for his last fight

Kelly Pavlik - Boxer

Check yourself, he came in OVER WEIGHT at 170 lbs.

Now why he would voluntarily come in at a weight he cannot perform at when he's trying to rebuild his career?

Hopkins beat an undefeated prime Pavlik. Martinez beat a psychologically beaten Pavlik at a weight he could no longer comfortably make.

Again please answer me this. If Pavliks ideal weight is 160 lb why is he choosing to fight at 170?

Also regarding maintaining a level of form. Remind me of all the great fighters Nonito Donaire beat between knocking out Vic Darchinyan and then Montiel? It seemed to me he beat up on a lot of little part timers from the lighter weight classes who he outweighed by about a stone and in some cases was almost a foot taller.

What Fenster is arguing, if I'm not mistaken, is that Pavlik was at his best when he was at 160. I agree. The reason is that at 6'1 1/2 with a long reach, he was bigger and longer than most middleweights. When he stepped up in weight, his advantages in height and reach disappeared. That is why he isn't as quality of a fighter now. At middleweight, he could afford to be a plodding fighter against most opponents because he was usually so much bigger, but not so much anymore.

It really doesn't matter why he stepped up in weight. There is no way to know. It could be because he couldn't make weight or it could be because he wanted a bigger money fight and there wasn't one at 160 or it could be because he is just lazy. Either way, Pavlik's advantages aren't as pronounced at 170. Take a look at his most recent fight, he should have dominated that guy. The opponent was hand-picked for Pavlik's come-back fight, and Pavlik didn't look very good. Moreover, if you look at his biggest victories, they came at the middleweight limit.

I would argue that Pavlik was at his best, before he fought Bernard Hopkins and got mentally destroyed, a la Lacy against Joe Calzaghe.

Hopkins completely shattered the Pavlik myth and it broke him. Looking at his earlier fights Jermain Taylor could well have won their first fight by KO with a different referee other than Steve Smoger in there.

He just had never fought anyone as good as Hopkins when they met, and Hopkins schooled him and embarrassed him.

Martinez fought a Pavlik that had been beaten and wasn't the same fighter as before.

Look at the criticisms Manny has had for beating Mosley, Oscar and Hatton. All Floyd opponents, he beat them all after, and none of them were as good as when Floyd fought them.

Surely Manny's win over Hatton meant much more than Floyds as it was in the weight class where he was undefeated?

People pick and change to suit their point of view? Manny is cheating by making catchweights, Martinez is a legend, doesn't matter that two of his last three fights were catchweights. Floyd and Hopkins just bring up smaller guys. Doesn't matter that in his last fight Martinez just brought up a smaller guy.


There's no consistency in peoples arguments. If you want to judge the p4p rankings based on recent achievements only then Hopkins is 4-0-1 whereas Martinez is 3-1-1.

If you want to take a longer view then Hopkins might well be approaching the top 20 greatest fighters of all time.

Martinez.....well he did knock out Paul Williams in style.

[miron_lang]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

You'd favor Martinez againts Hopkins at 168?

[Rantcatrat]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

Well if you are only going to compare recent form then Hopkins is undefeated having gone 4-0-1 in his last five.

Martinez is 3-1-1

So your argument that past achievements don't count makes no sense either. I presume Hopkins would have been in your p4p prior to fighting Joe? He should have been coming off a majestic win over Tarver and he only lost a disputed decision to Calzaghe, by unanimous consensus the p4p number 3 at that time.

Since then he's not lost a fight and scored two outstanding wins against Pavlik and Pascal, and arguably beat Pascal twice.

Martinez has only fought one really good fighter Paul Williams (who had already been beaten by a B list fighter in Carlos Quintana) and he went 1-1 with him.

Hopkins opposition has simply been better.

Did you pursposely ignore that Martinez beat a far superior Pavlik?

Let me show you again - Pavlik? You are not seriously suggesting Pavlik's best weight has not been 160, right? The weight where he became lineal champ. The weight that he'd never LOST at until meeting Martinez. The weight he IMMEDIATELY moved backdown to after the Hopkins fight. A fight in which Hopkins weighed 185 on the night to Pavliks 176 wearing a tracksuit and trainers. Clearly Pavlik wasn't ready for that weight jump.

Of course Hopkins was rated P4P when beating Tarver and losing to Calzaghe. His opponents either side were Winky and Pavlik. However, that was over three years ago. You have to maintain a level of form, especially using your criteria. Hopkins current level of form is no better than many other fighters, and certainly not in Martinez league.

Show me 5-10 posters that think Hopkins last five opponents are stronger than Martinez? That is ridiculous.

Please explain to me this as you ignored me before...

if Pavliks best weight was 160lbs and he's no good at 170 why is he fighting as a supermiddleweight now and why did he weigh in at 170lbs for his last fight

Kelly Pavlik - Boxer

Check yourself, he came in OVER WEIGHT at 170 lbs.

Now why he would voluntarily come in at a weight he cannot perform at when he's trying to rebuild his career?

Hopkins beat an undefeated prime Pavlik. Martinez beat a psychologically beaten Pavlik at a weight he could no longer comfortably make.

Again please answer me this. If Pavliks ideal weight is 160 lb why is he choosing to fight at 170?

Also regarding maintaining a level of form. Remind me of all the great fighters Nonito Donaire beat between knocking out Vic Darchinyan and then Montiel? It seemed to me he beat up on a lot of little part timers from the lighter weight classes who he outweighed by about a stone and in some cases was almost a foot taller.

What Fenster is arguing, if I'm not mistaken, is that Pavlik was at his best when he was at 160. I agree. The reason is that at 6'1 1/2 with a long reach, he was bigger and longer than most middleweights. When he stepped up in weight, his advantages in height and reach disappeared. That is why he isn't as quality of a fighter now. At middleweight, he could afford to be a plodding fighter against most opponents because he was usually so much bigger, but not so much anymore.

It really doesn't matter why he stepped up in weight. There is no way to know. It could be because he couldn't make weight or it could be because he wanted a bigger money fight and there wasn't one at 160 or it could be because he is just lazy. Either way, Pavlik's advantages aren't as pronounced at 170. Take a look at his most recent fight, he should have dominated that guy. The opponent was hand-picked for Pavlik's come-back fight, and Pavlik didn't look very good. Moreover, if you look at his biggest victories, they came at the middleweight limit.

I would argue that Pavlik was at his best, before he fought Bernard Hopkins and got mentally destroyed, a la Lacy against Joe Calzaghe.

Hopkins completely shattered the Pavlik myth and it broke him. Looking at his earlier fights Jermain Taylor could well have won their first fight by KO with a different referee other than Steve Smoger in there.

He just had never fought anyone as good as Hopkins when they met, and Hopkins schooled him and embarrassed him.

Martinez fought a Pavlik that had been beaten and wasn't the same fighter as before.

Look at the criticisms Manny has had for beating Mosley, Oscar and Hatton. All Floyd opponents, he beat them all after, and none of them were as good as when Floyd fought them.

Surely Manny's win over Hatton meant much more than Floyds as it was in the weight class where he was undefeated?

People pick and change to suit their point of view? Manny is cheating by making catchweights, Martinez is a legend, doesn't matter that two of his last three fights were catchweights. Floyd and Hopkins just bring up smaller guys. Doesn't matter that in his last fight Martinez just brought up a smaller guy.


There's no consistency in peoples arguments. If you want to judge the p4p rankings based on recent achievements only then Hopkins is 4-0-1 whereas Martinez is 3-1-1.

If you want to take a longer view then Hopkins might well be approaching the top 20 greatest fighters of all time.

Martinez.....well he did knock out Paul Williams in style.

You believe Pavlik is at his best at 170 and I believe he was at his best at 160. We can agree to disagree then.