Who is 'Greater' on the all-time list SRL or RJJ?

[Mars_ax]

[QUOTE=Galaxy;1020840][QUOTE=Mars_ax;1020837]

Question: Have you actually seen Jones/ Toney? If not you should watch it. Toney was considered one of the best in the sport at that time, I'm not sure what you think of Toney but even today he is commended for still having some of the best technical abilities. Jones owned him! You can have Jones anywhere you like on your list but the fact is Jones was an amazing talent in his prime!

Not for his opinion.

Perhaps Jones was "amazing" until he got figured out.

You don't think age caught up with him? As it does with everyone

Jones was just 34 when he fought Tarver the 1st time, not exactly ancient eh? And he's still fighting 8 years later at age 42. It could just be that he didn't train as hard as he used to, who knows.

Prior to the 2nd Tarver fight, because of unorthodox style, solid defense, and the fact that he stayed on offense most of time, it was very hard to get a clean flush shot in on RJJ. Jones Jr. achilles heel turned out to be his china chin, Tarver was just the first to expose it.

Just think how good Jones must have been then that no one knew he had no chin for over a decade spanning from 154 to heavy.

I've never said he wasn't good, just not the "god" all you RJJ fanboys make him out to be.

[ICB]

Talk about total disrespect for a great fighter honestly.

Your love for and defense of RJJ is touching, as for disrespecting him, that's comical, fuck Roy Jones Jr., that is all.

You can rant all you want i didn't see you address anything in my post, and your hate for RJJ is ridiculous. Not even in the top 100 ? that is an absolute joke, you can dislike a fighter without being ridiculously biased and hateful.

Gosh ICB, are you and Roy dating? You seem to be "ridiculously" all over this mother-fucker's nuts.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is "biased and hateful" or as in love with RJJ as you seem to be, quit acting like an over emotional cunt, and get over yourself.

Are you serious ? your the one that needs to get over yourself, your the one getting annoyed and flustered over nothing. To not put RJJ in an ATG top 100 list is a joke, that's not an opinion that's just plain hating.

Not many fighters have achieved what RJJ did, or have dominated the way he did. Based on accomplishments and his dominant performances, aswell as just plain natural talent he's easily top 100 and actually he's more like top 50. And had he retired after John Ruiz fight he'd be rated even higher.

First off, you may think it's a joke, but it's my ATG list, so I can put anyone I bloody well please, and where on it, no?

"if he'd just retired" can be said about a lot of fighters, the fact is Jones didn't retire after Ruiz, and all the losses, and KO loses since then have tarnished his "legacy".

So you actually have a top 100 list and don't have RJJ in it ? please i'd love to see the list.

And what about SRL's gift decision vs Tommy Hearns, or his one sided loss to Terry Norris doesn't that tarnish his legacy either ?

[Mars_ax]

Talk about total disrespect for a great fighter honestly.

Your love for and defense of RJJ is touching, as for disrespecting him, that's comical, fuck Roy Jones Jr., that is all.

You can rant all you want i didn't see you address anything in my post, and your hate for RJJ is ridiculous. Not even in the top 100 ? that is an absolute joke, you can dislike a fighter without being ridiculously biased and hateful.

Gosh ICB, are you and Roy dating? You seem to be "ridiculously" all over this mother-fucker's nuts.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is "biased and hateful" or as in love with RJJ as you seem to be, quit acting like an over emotional cunt, and get over yourself.

Are you serious ? your the one that needs to get over yourself, your the one getting annoyed and flustered over nothing. To not put RJJ in an ATG top 100 list is a joke, that's not an opinion that's just plain hating.

Not many fighters have achieved what RJJ did, or have dominated the way he did. Based on accomplishments and his dominant performances, aswell as just plain natural talent he's easily top 100 and actually he's more like top 50. And had he retired after John Ruiz fight he'd be rated even higher.

First off, you may think it's a joke, but it's my ATG list, so I can put anyone I bloody well please, and where on it, no?

"if he'd just retired" can be said about a lot of fighters, the fact is Jones didn't retire after Ruiz, and all the losses, and KO loses since then have tarnished his "legacy".

So you actually have a top 100 list and don't have RJJ in it ? please i'd love to see the list.

And what about SRL's gift decision vs Tommy Hearns, or his one sided loss to Terry Norris doesn't that tarnish his legacy either ?

Yes I do, my top 100 ATG's starts before Jim Jefferies was HW Champion, and includes all weight divisions up through the modern era, and no, you can't see it.

As for Leonard's legacy, it's all good, have a great day ICB..

[p4pking]

Lol, what fighters do you like Mars?

It's hard to assess Jones career in large part, because we really don't know when his skills started to diminish and to what extent, or whether moving back down in weight was really as devestating as is often made out.
For me this excuse is kind of trumped by the fact that he looked a lot fresher in the first round of the Tarver rematch than he did in any of their first fight. He simply got caught with a great punch, but also one of the only truly great punches he'd been hit with in a long time, and it knocked him silly. He clearly never had the same confidence in his abilities after this, whether they were there or not. Leonard in his prime fought the kind of opposition that you can't go without being hit by, and sure enough proved to be extremely durable all the way through. I think SRL is more of a concrete entity for this reason, you have a reasonable idea about how he might have fared against certain guys he didn't fight, which isn't so much the case with Roy imo.
Often times with slick fighters it's once they lose a step that you start to see how tough they really were, Pernell Whittaker for example proved that he had a hell of a chin against Trinidad, nobody could've guessed whether he would stand up to that kind of punishment before the fact.

[ICB]

Talk about total disrespect for a great fighter honestly.

Your love for and defense of RJJ is touching, as for disrespecting him, that's comical, fuck Roy Jones Jr., that is all.

You can rant all you want i didn't see you address anything in my post, and your hate for RJJ is ridiculous. Not even in the top 100 ? that is an absolute joke, you can dislike a fighter without being ridiculously biased and hateful.

Gosh ICB, are you and Roy dating? You seem to be "ridiculously" all over this mother-fucker's nuts.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is "biased and hateful" or as in love with RJJ as you seem to be, quit acting like an over emotional cunt, and get over yourself.

Are you serious ? your the one that needs to get over yourself, your the one getting annoyed and flustered over nothing. To not put RJJ in an ATG top 100 list is a joke, that's not an opinion that's just plain hating.

Not many fighters have achieved what RJJ did, or have dominated the way he did. Based on accomplishments and his dominant performances, aswell as just plain natural talent he's easily top 100 and actually he's more like top 50. And had he retired after John Ruiz fight he'd be rated even higher.

First off, you may think it's a joke, but it's my ATG list, so I can put anyone I bloody well please, and where on it, no?

"if he'd just retired" can be said about a lot of fighters, the fact is Jones didn't retire after Ruiz, and all the losses, and KO loses since then have tarnished his "legacy".

So you actually have a top 100 list and don't have RJJ in it ? please i'd love to see the list.

And what about SRL's gift decision vs Tommy Hearns, or his one sided loss to Terry Norris doesn't that tarnish his legacy either ?

Yes I do, my top 100 ATG's starts before Jim Jefferies was HW Champion, and includes all weight divisions up through the modern era, and no, you can't see it.

As for Leonard's legacy, it's all good, have a great day ICB..

I want to see that list copy and paste it

[erics44]

Is it possible to choose one over the other without it being perceived as a diss on the other? RJJ was a remarkable talent, probably an ATG. But SRL's list of opponents stands head and shoulders above RJJ's. Not a slight on Roy, just telling it like it is.

Younger fans who have never seen any SRL footage will find it hard to comprehend... but there was life before RJJ, Tyson, and all the rest.

Again its very easy to say leonard had better opponents but in general did he really?

The era is massively hyped

Yeah, you're probably right. Roberto "Manos de Piedra" Duran, Thomas "Hitman" Hearns, Marvin "Marvelous" Hagler, Wilfredo "El Radar de St. Just" Benitez...... massively hyped indeed.

all great fighters all around at the same time made for a great era which all added to the hype

toney, jones, hopkins, mccallum all as good, just around when there were other distractions in boxing

listen man, that era was unforgettable im not denying it, but you mention 4 fighters, did leonard only win fights against these boxers? are all of his other opponents better than all of jones' too?

[Galaxy]

[QUOTE=Mars_ax;1020846][QUOTE=Galaxy;1020840]

Question: Have you actually seen Jones/ Toney? If not you should watch it. Toney was considered one of the best in the sport at that time, I'm not sure what you think of Toney but even today he is commended for still having some of the best technical abilities. Jones owned him! You can have Jones anywhere you like on your list but the fact is Jones was an amazing talent in his prime!

Not for his opinion.

Perhaps Jones was "amazing" until he got figured out.

You don't think age caught up with him? As it does with everyone

Jones was just 34 when he fought Tarver the 1st time, not exactly ancient eh? And he's still fighting 8 years later at age 42. It could just be that he didn't train as hard as he used to, who knows.

Prior to the 2nd Tarver fight, because of unorthodox style, solid defense, and the fact that he stayed on offense most of time, it was very hard to get a clean flush shot in on RJJ. Jones Jr. achilles heel turned out to be his china chin, Tarver was just the first to expose it.

Just think how good Jones must have been then that no one knew he had no chin for over a decade spanning from 154 to heavy.

I've never said he wasn't good, just not the "god" all you RJJ fanboys make him out to be.

I'm no Jones fanboy bro, I was one of his biggest critics while he was feasting on so called #1 contenders at 175. But I recognize the skills the guy had, the work he done & like ICB said had he retired he would have been very high regarded in ATG terms. So his legacy has been tarnished due to his continuing & losing but it doesn't detract from the fact that at his best Jones was great & easily a top 100 ATG

I'd be interested in seeing your top 100 list too if you could find the time

[Phillips]

Calzaghe would have smashed these two to peices in his prime in the 90s and early 2000s x x x x x

[Galaxy]

Calzaghe would have smashed these two to peices in his prime in the 90s and early 2000s x x x x x

Thanks for the laugh bro

[p4pking]

I don't quite buy that Erics. Even in peak form Hopkins was never in the same universe as a Hearns or Benitez if you're talking about talent. Given that he was basically an amateur against Roy I don't rate that as a great win or performance. McCallum was flat out past it although obviously still very good and a threat to anyone else, but same goes for me. Toney is the real enigma on Jones resume, he was a great fighter no question but truly did look like shit against Roy.. How much of that had to do with being weight drained as opposed to thrown off by RJJs athletecism is hard to know imo. It is possible that Roy was truly good enough to put great fighters into a trance like that, but had he faced talent equivalent to what SRL did it's hard to imagine he wouldn't have gotten tagged at least a bit, and that's where it becomes anyones guess. I don't think anyone would tell you with a straight face that they wouldn't rank Jones as a better fighter IF he had retired at some point before he lost, but despite what effect you think weight loss or whatever else had on him the fact is we do know he was nowhere near as tough.

[TitoFan]

Is it possible to choose one over the other without it being perceived as a diss on the other? RJJ was a remarkable talent, probably an ATG. But SRL's list of opponents stands head and shoulders above RJJ's. Not a slight on Roy, just telling it like it is.

Younger fans who have never seen any SRL footage will find it hard to comprehend... but there was life before RJJ, Tyson, and all the rest.

Again its very easy to say leonard had better opponents but in general did he really?

The era is massively hyped

Yeah, you're probably right. Roberto "Manos de Piedra" Duran, Thomas "Hitman" Hearns, Marvin "Marvelous" Hagler, Wilfredo "El Radar de St. Just" Benitez...... massively hyped indeed.

all great fighters all around at the same time made for a great era which all added to the hype

toney, jones, hopkins, mccallum all as good, just around when there were other distractions in boxing

listen man, that era was unforgettable im not denying it, but you mention 4 fighters, did leonard only win fights against these boxers? are all of his other opponents better than all of jones' too?

Leonard's other opponents were nothing extraordinary, but I disagree with your assessment about Toney, Hopkins, McCallum being just as good. I think p4p may have already given a good explanation on why. Distractions? There's always distractions in boxing. Not a justifiable argument. I'm not dumping on Roy's skill or potential, had he faced fighters of the level that SRL did.... (and very close to their peaks, I might add). But much like the Klitschkos.... he didn't. He dominated, but mostly against very forgettable opposition. No "fights for the ages", like SRL-Duran, SRL-Hearns, SRL-Benitez. You can't just assume that ALL boxing eras are comparable in terms of quality fighters. It's just not true.

[erics44]

Is it possible to choose one over the other without it being perceived as a diss on the other? RJJ was a remarkable talent, probably an ATG. But SRL's list of opponents stands head and shoulders above RJJ's. Not a slight on Roy, just telling it like it is.

Younger fans who have never seen any SRL footage will find it hard to comprehend... but there was life before RJJ, Tyson, and all the rest.

Again its very easy to say leonard had better opponents but in general did he really?

The era is massively hyped

Yeah, you're probably right. Roberto "Manos de Piedra" Duran, Thomas "Hitman" Hearns, Marvin "Marvelous" Hagler, Wilfredo "El Radar de St. Just" Benitez...... massively hyped indeed.

all great fighters all around at the same time made for a great era which all added to the hype

toney, jones, hopkins, mccallum all as good, just around when there were other distractions in boxing

listen man, that era was unforgettable im not denying it, but you mention 4 fighters, did leonard only win fights against these boxers? are all of his other opponents better than all of jones' too?

Leonard's other opponents were nothing extraordinary, but I disagree with your assessment about Toney, Hopkins, McCallum being just as good. I think p4p may have already given a good explanation on why. Distractions? There's always distractions in boxing. Not a justifiable argument. I'm not dumping on Roy's skill or potential, had he faced fighters of the level that SRL did.... (and very close to their peaks, I might add). But much like the Klitschkos.... he didn't. He dominated, but mostly against very forgettable opposition. No "fights for the ages", like SRL-Duran, SRL-Hearns, SRL-Benitez. You can't just assume that ALL boxing eras are comparable in terms of quality fighters. It's just not true.

so we agree that all the everyday opponents they fought were equal yes?

so its down to who is better - duran, hearns, hagler, benitez or Hopkins, Toney, mcallum, taver

I personally think if you put any of those fighters in with each other at their peaks and lb4lb it will be a very close fight, very hard to pick winners

so its down to how srl and rjj dealt with them

leonards carear was undoubtably full of closer fights and more excitement and at a time where the lighter fighters got more exposure so against bigger names

So if the question is whos career i would like to relive, it would be leonards without a doubt

Jones was more dominant tho, looked unbeatable at a time and had a lot less trouble with his opponents than leonard did

so if you ask me who i think would win if the two fought, I would put my money on jones

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

People, can we not just assume that they're about the same then no?

Roy was probably a more physically gifted guy but Ray was absolutely rock solid fundamentally.

For me their resume's are about the same. I'd have to dislike one of em to actually split them apart.

[Spicoli]

I also give the edge to Leonard in a department Jones lacks and needs to learn. Willingness to retire, mutiple times.

[ajtyler]

Leonard is my pic