Can one really be ranked P4P when you demand catch weights?

[Bilbo's Mom]

All the greats in the history of the sport have moved up through the divisions and havent demanded that their opponents come in weight drained. I dont see whats so special about Pac.

Name me three other fighters in history who moved up 8 WEIGHT CLASSES from where they started their careers then fought the BEST opponent in that weight class and won?

Just three names all of boxing history will suffice, then you can see how special Pac is.

Ray Leonard, Oscar and Duran. Oscar went from superfeater to middleweight champ and he wasnt fighting guys coming off losses like Pac either.

Pac fought a washed up Barrera coming off a loss and the commentary scored it for Barrera. Everytime Pac met Morales, Erik was coming off a loss and Erik beat him once aswel. Then he meets Oscar at the end of his career who had moved down from middleweight . He had no energy in round 1 and Pac still couldnt drop him and it took 9 rounds of non stop punching without Oscar punching back. Then Pac meets another Floyd Mayweather leftover in Hatton.

The last time Pac met fighters on teh way up instead of the way down in was Sungursat and Torrencamp and both men knocked Pac clean out in 3 easy rounds. FACT

haha 3 names all WRONG!

When did Oscar fight the BEST middleweight at their weight?

He fought Bernard AT A CATCHWEIGHT AND GOT KNOCKED OUT

Then he fought Felix Sturm, a paper belt holder and lost by virtually every fans scorecard.


Ray Leonard won the light heavy title AT A CATCHWEIGHT

NONE OF THEM WENT THROUGH 8 DIVISION.

DURAN LOST TO HAGLER,

[GAME]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnAn6FvSVc4

lol

[Bilbo's Mom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnAn6FvSVc4

lol

Reply to my post above posting vids a sign you lost the argument.

Oscar and Ray Leonard both fought for world titles AT CATCHWEIGHTS against DRAINED opponents in your words.

[GAME]

Name me three other fighters in history who moved up 8 WEIGHT CLASSES from where they started their careers then fought the BEST opponent in that weight class and won?

Just three names all of boxing history will suffice, then you can see how special Pac is.

Ray Leonard, Oscar and Duran. Oscar went from superfeater to middleweight champ and he wasnt fighting guys coming off losses like Pac either.

Pac fought a washed up Barrera coming off a loss and the commentary scored it for Barrera. Everytime Pac met Morales, Erik was coming off a loss and Erik beat him once aswel. Then he meets Oscar at the end of his career who had moved down from middleweight . He had no energy in round 1 and Pac still couldnt drop him and it took 9 rounds of non stop punching without Oscar punching back. Then Pac meets another Floyd Mayweather leftover in Hatton.

The last time Pac met fighters on teh way up instead of the way down in was Sungursat and Torrencamp and both men knocked Pac clean out in 3 easy rounds. FACT

haha 3 names all WRONG!

When did Oscar fight the BEST middleweight at their weight?

He fought Bernard AT A CATCHWEIGHT AND GOT KNOCKED OUT

Then he fought Felix Sturm, a paper belt holder and lost by virtually every fans scorecard.


Ray Leonard won the light heavy title AT A CATCHWEIGHT

NONE OF THEM WENT THROUGH 8 DIVISION.

DURAN LOST TO HAGLER,

Lol thats rich coming from a pacfan when you consider everyone thinks Marquez dominated Pac both times.

So Diaz was the best lighhtweight was he . You guys make me laugh

[GAME]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnAn6FvSVc4

lol

Reply to my post above posting vids a sign you lost the argument.

Oscar and Ray Leonard both fought for world titles AT CATCHWEIGHTS against DRAINED opponents in your words.

I just owned you in the previous post. Theres no coming back from that

By the way Pacland is that way ---------------->

[Bilbo's Mom]

Ray Leonard, Oscar and Duran. Oscar went from superfeater to middleweight champ and he wasnt fighting guys coming off losses like Pac either.

Pac fought a washed up Barrera coming off a loss and the commentary scored it for Barrera. Everytime Pac met Morales, Erik was coming off a loss and Erik beat him once aswel. Then he meets Oscar at the end of his career who had moved down from middleweight . He had no energy in round 1 and Pac still couldnt drop him and it took 9 rounds of non stop punching without Oscar punching back. Then Pac meets another Floyd Mayweather leftover in Hatton.

The last time Pac met fighters on teh way up instead of the way down in was Sungursat and Torrencamp and both men knocked Pac clean out in 3 easy rounds. FACT

haha 3 names all WRONG!

When did Oscar fight the BEST middleweight at their weight?

He fought Bernard AT A CATCHWEIGHT AND GOT KNOCKED OUT

Then he fought Felix Sturm, a paper belt holder and lost by virtually every fans scorecard.


Ray Leonard won the light heavy title AT A CATCHWEIGHT

NONE OF THEM WENT THROUGH 8 DIVISION.

DURAN LOST TO HAGLER,

Lol thats rich coming from a pacfan when you consider everyone thinks Marquez dominated Pac both times.

So Diaz was the best lighhtweight was he . You guys make me laugh

Actually I'm not a Pacfan at all other than I appreciate he's a fantastic fighter.

I thought both fights with Marquez were extremely close and could have gone either way.

What I am is objective and not a fanboy or hater.

You're arguments are just detached from reality. You equate Cotto dropping 2 single pounds to fight Manny at 144 to Lennox Lewis dropping 30 lbs to fight Roy Jones at 210.

You say a win over Cotto at 145 would mean nothing then point out how Oscar and Ray Leonard's achievements were better apparently missing that Oscar fought B Hop at a catchweight and got KO'd to a (what would have to be according to you) a massively weight drained shell in B Hop.

Then Leonard wins a light heavyweight title against the all time great that is Donny Lalonde also at a catchweight.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about.

[GAME]

haha 3 names all WRONG!

When did Oscar fight the BEST middleweight at their weight?

He fought Bernard AT A CATCHWEIGHT AND GOT KNOCKED OUT

Then he fought Felix Sturm, a paper belt holder and lost by virtually every fans scorecard.


Ray Leonard won the light heavy title AT A CATCHWEIGHT

NONE OF THEM WENT THROUGH 8 DIVISION.

DURAN LOST TO HAGLER,

Lol thats rich coming from a pacfan when you consider everyone thinks Marquez dominated Pac both times.

So Diaz was the best lighhtweight was he . You guys make me laugh

Actually I'm not a Pacfan at all other than I appreciate he's a fantastic fighter.

I thought both fights with Marquez were extremely close and could have gone either way.

What I am is objective and not a fanboy or hater.

You're arguments are just detached from reality. You equate Cotto dropping 2 single pounds to fight Manny at 144 to Lennox Lewis dropping 30 lbs to fight Roy Jones at 210.

You say a win over Cotto at 145 would mean nothing then point out how Oscar and Ray Leonard's achievements were better apparently missing that Oscar fought B Hop at a catchweight and got KO'd to a (what would have to be according to you) a massively weight drained shell in B Hop.

Then Leonard wins a light heavyweight title against the all time great that is Donny Lalonde also at a catchweight.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about.

When have I ever said any of that stuff. I think you are quoting the wrong person

[JonesJrMayweather]

makes perfect sense to me... it's not about them being too physically big... it's about them being drained.

154 guys will most likely be drained at 147 so it's OK to fight them at that.

147 guys obviously wouldn't be drained at 147 so I guess we'll have to drag them down a bit lower.

Roach isn't stupid... and luckily for him the team have the $$$ ability to pull it off.

oh what a PPV shaped golden carrot will get people willing to do just to get a peice of it.

Finally a logical and obvious answer. Its to drain them plain and simple...Way to say it instead of trying to disguise it as "a compromise"

That's like if roy jones after beating ruiz, said "I want to fight lennox lewis but he has to come down to 210", then he wouldn't have been fighting lewis, he'd be fighting a shell of lewis.

Why would Lewis have to drop to 210 lbs? Lewis weighed in around 240 lbs so why are you making him drop 30 lbs?

The proposed catchweight from Manny asks Cotto to drop 2 single lbs.

So are you saying if Roy Jones agreed to fight Lennox Lewis but only if Lewis dropped 2 lbs and weighed in at no more than 238 lbs you wouldn't have been impressed?

As they are bigger so lbs count less lets make it 5 lbs, double the amount Cotto has to drop. Lewis had to weigh in at no more than 235 lbs would you be complaining that Jones was a coward and a pussy?

Seriously now if Jones agreed to fight Lennox Lewis as long as Lewis agreed to come in under 235 lbs the fight would have meant to nothing to you and Jones was a pussy?

You guys are unreal

Don't quite understand how you come to that conclusion, but no one was suggesting that...and much like someone has already mentioned that at the smaller weights 2,3,4,5 pounds can be the difference its takes to give one a significant advantage. Much like asking a fighter that hasn't fought below a certain weight in over a decade to drop below that weight will make him weaker. Possibly even fatigued from over training. You can sell that "it's only two pounds" some where else. Because anyone that's done training in prep for a fight knows that if you're already struggling to make the 147 limit. That 3 or four more pounds will absolutely exhaust you.


Fact is pac has fought at 142 more recently than cotto and looked good at the weight. Cotto hasn't fought below 146 in three years. So given those facts its not really a compromise. Because PACMAN will be more comfortable at the weight than Cotto thus giving him an advantage.

[RP33]

i don't see what catchweights have to do with being P4P.. pound for pound means best regardless of weight.. doesn't necessarily meant weight CLASS..

on top of that, with catch weights it should be even EASIER to help determine who is P4P best considering you're not ONLY limited to your weight class and you would not have to hypothetically say, i wonder who is better between this welterweight and junior welterweight.. well they can meet in the middle and fight at a catchweight.

P4P becomes more difficult to figure out when you have guys who could never fight each other, and who dont have common opponents..

[Bilbo's Mom]

Lol thats rich coming from a pacfan when you consider everyone thinks Marquez dominated Pac both times.

So Diaz was the best lighhtweight was he . You guys make me laugh

Actually I'm not a Pacfan at all other than I appreciate he's a fantastic fighter.

I thought both fights with Marquez were extremely close and could have gone either way.

What I am is objective and not a fanboy or hater.

You're arguments are just detached from reality. You equate Cotto dropping 2 single pounds to fight Manny at 144 to Lennox Lewis dropping 30 lbs to fight Roy Jones at 210.

You say a win over Cotto at 145 would mean nothing then point out how Oscar and Ray Leonard's achievements were better apparently missing that Oscar fought B Hop at a catchweight and got KO'd to a (what would have to be according to you) a massively weight drained shell in B Hop.

Then Leonard wins a light heavyweight title against the all time great that is Donny Lalonde also at a catchweight.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about.

When have I ever said any of that stuff. I think you are quoting the wrong person

Ah my bad if it wasn't you

[Bilbo's Mom]

Finally a logical and obvious answer. Its to drain them plain and simple...Way to say it instead of trying to disguise it as "a compromise"

That's like if roy jones after beating ruiz, said "I want to fight lennox lewis but he has to come down to 210", then he wouldn't have been fighting lewis, he'd be fighting a shell of lewis.

Why would Lewis have to drop to 210 lbs? Lewis weighed in around 240 lbs so why are you making him drop 30 lbs?

The proposed catchweight from Manny asks Cotto to drop 2 single lbs.

So are you saying if Roy Jones agreed to fight Lennox Lewis but only if Lewis dropped 2 lbs and weighed in at no more than 238 lbs you wouldn't have been impressed?

As they are bigger so lbs count less lets make it 5 lbs, double the amount Cotto has to drop. Lewis had to weigh in at no more than 235 lbs would you be complaining that Jones was a coward and a pussy?

Seriously now if Jones agreed to fight Lennox Lewis as long as Lewis agreed to come in under 235 lbs the fight would have meant to nothing to you and Jones was a pussy?

You guys are unreal

Don't quite understand how you come to that conclusion, but no one was suggesting that...and much like someone has already mentioned that at the smaller weights 2,3,4,5 pounds can be the difference its takes to give one a significant advantage. Much like asking a fighter that hasn't fought below a certain weight in over a decade to drop below that weight will make him weaker. Possibly even fatigued from over training. You can sell that "it's only two pounds" some where else. Because anyone that's done training in prep for a fight knows that if you're already struggling to make the 147 limit. That 3 or four more pounds will absolutely exhaust you.


Fact is pac has fought at 142 more recently than cotto and looked good at the weight. Cotto hasn't fought below 146 in three years. So given those facts its not really a compromise. Because PACMAN will be more comfortable at the weight than Cotto thus giving him an advantage.

It's not going to be 142 it's going to be 143-145 only 2 lbs light than Cotto weighed in against Clottey.

Cotto weighed 246 against Clottey (technically a catchweight so no title should have been on the line arccording to some of you).

If Manny fights him he's likely to want the fight at 144 so Cotto would need to drop another 2 lbs, still 4 lbs less than what he was fighting at just 2 years ago.

Catchweights between p4p greats arn't rare, and they make sense. Both are champs so the belts arn't important nor the weight division, what matters is only the p4p quality opponent.

Hopkins who is already a massive middleweight dropped 2 lbs to fight Oscar and fought at 158 and knocked Oscar out. Yet everyone moans at Hopkins for fighting the smaller man, not how drained he was.

Then when Winky move up to fight Hopkins at a catchweight of 170 everyone moaned that Hopkins should have move DOWN and fought him at around 166lbs.

People will always moan about shit regardless. Pacquaio vs Cotto is one of the biggest potential matchups in boxing that can be made right now and it's nothing to do with the belt on the line or the weight division.

Nobody is watching Pacquaio Cotto because they are interested in seeing who is going to be the next holder of the WBO world strap, likely most people won't even know what version of the six world title belts will even be on the line, or what weight class it's fought at.

[Bilbo's Mom]

i don't see what catchweights have to do with being P4P.. pound for pound means best regardless of weight.. doesn't necessarily meant weight CLASS..

on top of that, with catch weights it should be even EASIER to help determine who is P4P best considering you're not ONLY limited to your weight class and you would not have to hypothetically say, i wonder who is better between this welterweight and junior welterweight.. well they can meet in the middle and fight at a catchweight.

P4P becomes more difficult to figure out when you have guys who could never fight each other, and who dont have common opponents..

Exactly mate, the weight classes exist to tell us who are the champions in those weight classes.

The very best fighters who win multiple world titles in multiple weight classes transcend that. Then they become the p4p stars and want to fight each other.

At this point belts and sticking to a weight division is no longer important, nobody cares about the WBO strap on the line against Cotto Pacqauio or what division they fight in, we just want them to fight!

As long as both fighters can make 144 lbs and are willing to fight that's all that matters. Who cares if its a title fight? Is the WBO belt THAT important when you've already won multiple world titles?

p4p fighters are no longer operating according to belts and classes, they've moved beyond that.

[Youngblood]

Ok I made my reply Saddo can you please save me from myself and ban this account too.

I'm going to a calm myself down now lest I get worked up into a state.

Off to the TS fap boards for me to work off some of this energy

lmaooo

[AdamGB]

Finally a logical and obvious answer. Its to drain them plain and simple...Way to say it instead of trying to disguise it as "a compromise"

That's like if roy jones after beating ruiz, said "I want to fight lennox lewis but he has to come down to 210", then he wouldn't have been fighting lewis, he'd be fighting a shell of lewis.

Yeah... 'compromise'... when was the last time you heard of a fighter moving up in weight being weight drained?!...

Pac may have been the smaller man.... but Roach isn't stupid, he asked for ODLH to come down to a certain weight because he knew something that either most of us didn't know or most pac fans didn't WANT to know.

NOBODY is naturally 120 pounds etc, it takes a lot to get down to that... Before boiling down and drying up, Pac is probably naturally in the 140s anyway.

On paper and indeed when signing the contract I'm sure that meeting each other halfway or whatever seemed like a fair compromise... but the reality is that Pac didn't have to force himself down in weight (which is a massive strain on your system) whilst Oscar had to do it even more. How that is even I do not know.

The weights will have to have been negiotiated and the long and short of it is that Roach has managed to get the numbers right... he's not stupid and whilst he may sound like it when he speaks... he's not soft either.

If Roach couldn't have gotten the right numbers he would never have taken the fight in the first place. He's not dumb.

Manny has acheived a lot... he's a humble guy and a great boxer who has acheived a lot, but I can't give him too much credit when it gets to the point that he (or his team) want to try and drain bigger fighters, the majority of which are already fighting as low as they can go.

Stay at light Welter or properly move up to Welter... just don't try and masquarade as a Welterweight when we all know you're not one.

and yeah, Jones/Lewis is a good example... I've used haye/Wlad before to say the same thing as that is a current fight... but because haye is a disliked, cocky loud mouth I think the comparison perplexed certain people...

haha I love the hypocrisy in your position.

So Oscar (with all the bartering power) was dragged down into a weight class he couldn't perform at and was totally depleted at 147 lbs.

Yet Manny should fight at 147 because he never weighed in the 120's he was just starving himself and drying up to make weight there, I guess to beat up on smaller guys.

Er ok right, so Manny was able to fight 20 lbs below his body weight without problem but none of these other guys can drop even 3 lbs, it would drain them too much.

If Manny walks around at 140 lbs then according to your own logic guys like Mosely and Cotto must walk around at 160 right?

So maybe THAT'S why a catchweight 'COMPROMISE' is necessary. To stop guys like Cotto and Mosely outweighing him by 20 lbs on the night of the fight.

He has been talking about a catcheweight of 144 lbs. That is only 2 lbs less than Cotto weighed in against Clottey, it's hardly going to see him like Oscar De La Hoya, who was 7 years older and had not fought at 147 for over 8 years and who weighed in on fight night, not at 147 but at 142! Let's not forget Oscar seriously fucked up his training that camp, he weighed 150 for Forbes and was ok.

A cacthweight is completely fair. Manny's ideal fighting weight now would be around 140 lbs, and by that I mean weigh in on the night of the fight at around 140-143 lbs

Cotto and Mosely if no catchweight was imposed could weigh in on the night of the fight well over 154 so outweigh him on the night of the fight by up to maybe 10 - 15 lbs.

That's 10 percent of Manny's bodyweight, a huge advantage to give up when the opponent also happens to be a world class elite fighter too.

There's a reason why Roy Jones gave up so much bodyweight to John Ruiz and not Lennox Lewis, it's because Ruiz is not 1/10th of the fighter Jones is. Manny is moving up and fighting the BEST, guys who are also elite fighters. I'm sure he wouldn't mind giving up the weight so much if the champ he was fighting was, like John Ruiz, a mediocre paper holding bum

Look Bilbo... you clearly don't understand how cutting/drying up work and I can't be bothered to explain the process to you.

It's not about having a few extra pounds in the ring... it's the strain and drain that it puts on the body's various systems draining the last few pounds off.

There's no hypocrisy... Pac has been drying up for fights and so have the people in weight divisions above him... but he's the one who wanted to move up.
Now he wants to stop moving up and ask them to come DOWN and fight him whilst pretending that it's still in their weight class?
You act as if Pac is the only person who has been cutting weight and these guys haven't... they have and the vast majority are all ready fighting at their lowest realistic limit.


In my opinion if pac isn't moving up a weight class to fight these guys at their weight the the only reason for calling them out is to make money.

[JonesJrMayweather]

Why would Lewis have to drop to 210 lbs? Lewis weighed in around 240 lbs so why are you making him drop 30 lbs?

The proposed catchweight from Manny asks Cotto to drop 2 single lbs.

So are you saying if Roy Jones agreed to fight Lennox Lewis but only if Lewis dropped 2 lbs and weighed in at no more than 238 lbs you wouldn't have been impressed?

As they are bigger so lbs count less lets make it 5 lbs, double the amount Cotto has to drop. Lewis had to weigh in at no more than 235 lbs would you be complaining that Jones was a coward and a pussy?

Seriously now if Jones agreed to fight Lennox Lewis as long as Lewis agreed to come in under 235 lbs the fight would have meant to nothing to you and Jones was a pussy?

You guys are unreal

Don't quite understand how you come to that conclusion, but no one was suggesting that...and much like someone has already mentioned that at the smaller weights 2,3,4,5 pounds can be the difference its takes to give one a significant advantage. Much like asking a fighter that hasn't fought below a certain weight in over a decade to drop below that weight will make him weaker. Possibly even fatigued from over training. You can sell that "it's only two pounds" some where else. Because anyone that's done training in prep for a fight knows that if you're already struggling to make the 147 limit. That 3 or four more pounds will absolutely exhaust you.


Fact is pac has fought at 142 more recently than cotto and looked good at the weight. Cotto hasn't fought below 146 in three years. So given those facts its not really a compromise. Because PACMAN will be more comfortable at the weight than Cotto thus giving him an advantage.

It's not going to be 142 it's going to be 143-145 only 2 lbs light than Cotto weighed in against Clottey.

Cotto weighed 246 against Clottey (technically a catchweight so no title should have been on the line arccording to some of you).

If Manny fights him he's likely to want the fight at 144 so Cotto would need to drop another 2 lbs, still 4 lbs less than what he was fighting at just 2 years ago.

Catchweights between p4p greats arn't rare, and they make sense. Both are champs so the belts arn't important nor the weight division, what matters is only the p4p quality opponent.

Hopkins who is already a massive middleweight dropped 2 lbs to fight Oscar and fought at 158 and knocked Oscar out. Yet everyone moans at Hopkins for fighting the smaller man, not how drained he was.

Then when Winky move up to fight Hopkins at a catchweight of 170 everyone moaned that Hopkins should have move DOWN and fought him at around 166lbs.

People will always moan about shit regardless. Pacquaio vs Cotto is one of the biggest potential matchups in boxing that can be made right now and it's nothing to do with the belt on the line or the weight division.

Nobody is watching Pacquaio Cotto because they are interested in seeing who is going to be the next holder of the WBO world strap, likely most people won't even know what version of the six world title belts will even be on the line, or what weight class it's fought at.

Im assuming you meant 146... cotto weighing 146 against clottey didn't make it a catch weight. That means he came in one pound under the allowable WW limit of 147.

It's a catch weight if before hand they agreed that the weight limit is 146. Then because a limit of 146 isn't a legitimate weight class that makes it catch weight. Because according to the rules, cotto is allowed to weight anything from 136 to 147 in order to fight for the WW title. (rules stating that one must be at least one weight class under in order to fight for the belt)