Joe Calzaghe under the micoscope

[Dark Lord Al]

The following thread is for the rest of you guys and girls to constructively discuss and give your opinions. I'm interested in your views.
Yes we all know i hate Calzaghe but these are the reasons i don't think he is an ATG.

1. WBO title challenge - Chris Eubank , who had twice been beaten by Steve Collins , and was badly weight drained . UD 12
2. Branko Sobot - he came into the fight with a record of 14-1 , he had beaten nobody - was a very poor fighter and none puncher , is now 19-11.
3. Juan Gimenez - had already bean beaten byEubank , Nigel Benn and Roberto Duran , was a poor opponent with no chance of winning.
4.Robin Reid , this was a very close fight , many felt Reid was robbed ,Calzaghe didn't help his cause by telling us he would ko Reid as "he cant take my power " jibe was ranted. Reid had lost his title to an ancient Thulane Malinga prior to fighting Calzaghe. - SD12.
5. Rick Thornberry ,KOED by Henry Wharton prior to this fight , he earned the shot at Calzaghe by beating 3 fighters with records as follows 1-0
8-23-5 , 5-26-1 . a disgraceful choice of opponent. UD12.
6. David Starie , who had been previously stopped in a British title fight by Dean Francis ,done nothing to earn title fight. - UD12 was a sleeper.
7. Omar Sheika had lost prior to the title shot to Tony Booth 28 -44-7 ,
but he had at least beaten Glen Johnson to earn shot. TKO5.
8. Richie Woodhall ,lost to Keith Holmes , had lost his title to Marcus Byer , and earned title shot by beating former welterweight Errol Mcdonald. TKO 10.
9. Mario Veit , undefeated but untested , brushed aside with ease . two fights before his title shot had beaten one Errol Mcdonald . TKO1.
10. Will Mcintrye , this undeserving challenger had lost to Dana Rosenblatt , and earned his shot by beating Jessie Marsh 9-3-1 . and Charles Daughtry 9-25-2 , this is a joke fighter. TKO 4.
11. Charles Brewer , this hot and cold fighter was always erratic , had lost prior on two occasions to Sven Ottke , and had be KOED by Antwan Echols, Lonnie Beasley etc. UD12.
12. Miguel Jimenez , this guy had beaten nobody to earn shot , lost to Brian Magee in his next fight also. UD12.
13. Tocker Pudwill , well this guy has to be the worst of the bunch , had lost prior to Sven Ottke , sound familiar ? he earned his shot at Calzaghe by beating the following , Enrico Ramirez 5-12-1 , Donnie Pendleton 13 -139-4 ,Larry Kenney 9-32-2 , Kwan Manassah 6-16-2. now i may not like Warren or Calzaghe but this fight was a joke.TKO2.
14. Byron Mitchell , this guy at least had a good punch as he showed by flooring Calzaghe , but had lost his prior fight to Sven Ottke , sound familiar ? exciting fight anyhow. TKO 2.
15. Mger Mkratchian , this guy had earned his shot by beating a guy with a record of 2-31 , another poor fighter. TKO 7.
16. Kabary Salem , this guy had lost his prior fight to Mario Veit , after the Calzaghe fight he was KOED by Luciano Bute. UD12.
17. Mario Veit , Veit did do better than the first fight , but still was outgunned. TKO6.
18. Evans Ashira, this guy was pretty limited , he had been KOED two fights earlier by Maselino Masoe , but lasted the distance . UD12.
19. Jeff Lacy , Lacy had looked a beast against Robin Reid , he entered the right with21 wins 17 KO'S , was over hyped , Calzaghe put his finest performance so far , handing Lacy his ass. For the record Jeff Lacy hasn't scored a KO since the Calzaghe fight. UD12.
20. Peter Manfredo JR , happy to be here Manfredo was light years from being world class , he also looked a division to small. Another poor fighter. TKO3.
21. Sakio Bika , another limited fighter , fought dirty and lost widely. UD12.
22.Mikkel Kessler , undefeated and by far the most complete fighter Calzaghe had fought so far , an excellent performance , his finest for me,
Kessler has gone on to regain a title at SM. UD12.
23. Fought a 43 year old Bernard Hopkins , was floored in the first , fight was close , Hopkins didnt fight with any urgency . Another good performance .Hopkins has gone on to beat Kelly Pavlik .SD 12.

So those are the facts , as far as I'm concerned Joe Calzaghe is a top fighter , but his resume is mostly poor , Kessler and Hopkins are both top fighters but his record is littered with to much garbage.
I for one do not think that resume is one of an ALL TIME GREAT.
I am not a fan of his pitty pat slaping punches , and do not find him good to watch.
Calzaghe has fought very few fighters with big power , he has been carefully matched by Warren , and for what reason , he looks as though he could have held his own with anyfighter , even if he was beaten , he wouldnt have disgraced himself.
Im sure he is not the first fighter to be judged like this and he will not be the last. Some will blame Frank Warren for his match making but a large portion of the blame has to fall on Calzaghe.He is an excellent fighter who should have fought top fighters more , and even if he had 2-3 losses i would respect him more.
I am very interested in your views , and i have tried hard not to let my hatred of Calzaghe cloud what I'm trying to achieve.
Please discuss.

Regards
Dark Lord.

[kingfrnk]

not impressed

[Kev]

If he beats Roy Jones of course he'll have the record of an all time great.

Who else in the world would hold two wins over the best two American fighters in these weight classes in the past 20 years?

I can't understand the hatred that Calzaghe endures.

He has the best record of any fighter currently fighting imo in that he never lost a fight. With Floyd retired Calzaghe is now unique in that regard, he's on the verge of doing what no other fighter (apart from Marciano) will have dont, that is go through an entire career, clean up your division and beat everybody.

You don't rate his opposition but let's compare him with other all time greats.

Who did Rocky Marciano beat to become an all time great?

Well he had that great come from behind win over Jersey Joe Woolcott, the Frank Bruno of his era, a guy who won a world title on his 5h attempt or something and who was around 56 years old when Marciano fought him.

He beat Le Starva and Ezzard Charles, oh and the ancient Archie Moore.

You really think Woolcott, Le Starza, Charles and Moore is better than Eubank, Kessler, Lacy, Hopkins and Jones?

Calzaghe is a first ballot hall of famer no question, and his career isn't over yet, he's still adding to his legacy.

[kingfrnk]

If he beats Roy Jones of course he'll have the record of an all time great.

Who else in the world would hold two wins over the best two American fighters in these weight classes in the past 20 years?

I can't understand the hatred that Calzaghe endures.

He has the best record of any fighter currently fighting imo in that he never lost a fight. With Floyd retired Calzaghe is now unique in that regard, he's on the verge of doing what no other fighter (apart from Marciano) will have dont, that is go through an entire career, clean up your division and beat everybody.

You don't rate his opposition but let's compare him with other all time greats.

Who did Rocky Marciano beat to become an all time great?

Well he had that great come from behind win over Jersey Joe Woolcott, the Frank Bruno of his era, a guy who won a world title on his 5h attempt or something and who was around 56 years old when Marciano fought him.

He beat Le Starva and Ezzard Charles, oh and the ancient Archie Moore.

You really think Woolcott, Le Starza, Charles and Moore is better than Eubank, Kessler, Lacy, Hopkins and Jones?

Calzaghe is a first ballot hall of famer no question, and his career isn't over yet, he's still adding to his legacy.

i think thats kinda stupid wats in bold. tarver was the first man to ko roy do you think he will be in the HOF. i dont think so.

[Kev]

If he beats Roy Jones of course he'll have the record of an all time great.

Who else in the world would hold two wins over the best two American fighters in these weight classes in the past 20 years?

I can't understand the hatred that Calzaghe endures.

He has the best record of any fighter currently fighting imo in that he never lost a fight. With Floyd retired Calzaghe is now unique in that regard, he's on the verge of doing what no other fighter (apart from Marciano) will have dont, that is go through an entire career, clean up your division and beat everybody.

You don't rate his opposition but let's compare him with other all time greats.

Who did Rocky Marciano beat to become an all time great?

Well he had that great come from behind win over Jersey Joe Woolcott, the Frank Bruno of his era, a guy who won a world title on his 5h attempt or something and who was around 56 years old when Marciano fought him.

He beat Le Starva and Ezzard Charles, oh and the ancient Archie Moore.

You really think Woolcott, Le Starza, Charles and Moore is better than Eubank, Kessler, Lacy, Hopkins and Jones?

Calzaghe is a first ballot hall of famer no question, and his career isn't over yet, he's still adding to his legacy.

i think thats kinda stupid wats in bold. tarver was the first man to ko roy do you think he will be in the HOF. i dont think so.

Yes but Tarver wasn't the longest reigning undefeated light heavy for over a decade was he? Tarver hasn't made the second most title defenses of any boxer in history has he? Tarver didn't get presented the Ring belt for being the greatest supper middleweight of all time did he?

Tarver didn't do to well against Bernard Hopkins did he?

Tarver has lost several fights, Jones, Johnson, Harding, Dawson, Calzaghe has lost never.

I wasn't saying that a Calzaghe win over Jones was enough by itself to make him a great, I meant its the icing on the cake, the victory that will finish his career and lead to him being a first ballot hall of famer.


Oh and by the way you are wrong about Tarver not being great. True he's not an elite fighter on the level of Hopkins and Jones. But he IS one of the best light heavyweights of the last decade. Wins over Jones, Glen Johnson, Eric Harding, Clinton Woods, Montell Griffin probably place him in the top 3 or 4 best light heavyweights of the last 10 years whether you like him or not.

And his wins over Roy Jones were HUGE in establishing that legacy. They gave him international fame, made him one of boxings most recognisable faces and even got him a part in a Rocky movie

For any fighter in the middleweight to light heavyweight divisions there are no bigger victories to have on your record than Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins.

If Calzaghe beats Jones he will have both, and be the only man in the world to do so.

[Kev]

If he beats Roy Jones of course he'll have the record of an all time great.

Who else in the world would hold two wins over the best two American fighters in these weight classes in the past 20 years?

I can't understand the hatred that Calzaghe endures.

He has the best record of any fighter currently fighting imo in that he never lost a fight. With Floyd retired Calzaghe is now unique in that regard, he's on the verge of doing what no other fighter (apart from Marciano) will have dont, that is go through an entire career, clean up your division and beat everybody.

You don't rate his opposition but let's compare him with other all time greats.

Who did Rocky Marciano beat to become an all time great?

Well he had that great come from behind win over Jersey Joe Woolcott, the Frank Bruno of his era, a guy who won a world title on his 5h attempt or something and who was around 56 years old when Marciano fought him.

He beat Le Starva and Ezzard Charles, oh and the ancient Archie Moore.

You really think Woolcott, Le Starza, Charles and Moore is better than Eubank, Kessler, Lacy, Hopkins and Jones?

Calzaghe is a first ballot hall of famer no question, and his career isn't over yet, he's still adding to his legacy.

i think thats kinda stupid wats in bold. tarver was the first man to ko roy do you think he will be in the HOF. i dont think so.

Oh and let me also say this. If Tarver had beaten B Hop he WOULD have made the Hall of Fame no question. Even beating Chad Dawson may have been enough to secure him a spot. He has lost some of his key fights which may well bar him entry into the HOF but you seriously think had he beaten Hopkins as well that he would not be close to being a HOF fighter? That's just hatred for Tarver.

If Calzaghe beats Roy Jones he's secured himself a place in the Hall of Fame without any doubt whatsoever.

In fact even if he loses to Jones he'll still almost certainly get in

[QUISQUEYA]

Joe Calzaghe is overrated beyond belief. IMO, he is not a Hall of Famer.

[Fenster]

That looks an impressive record by anyone standards.

He's beaten an all-time great fighter (Hopkins) and a great supermiddle (Eubank), unified against a couple of unbeaten prime fighters (Kessler and Lacy), beaten a handful of proven "world" champs (Reid, Brewer, Woodhall, Mitchell), beaten a handful of young hungry/tough contenders (Sheika, Veit, Bika, Starie) and totally outclassed some mediocre opposition.

How many fighters, over the past 10 years, around Calzaghe's weight-class, would also be UNBEATEN against that lot?

[Andre]

That looks an impressive record by anyone standards.

He's beaten an all-time great fighter (Hopkins) and a great supermiddle (Eubank), unified against a couple of unbeaten prime fighters (Kessler and Lacy), beaten a handful of proven "world" champs (Reid, Brewer, Woodhall, Mitchell), beaten a handful of young hungry/tough contenders (Sheika, Veit, Bika, Starie) and totally outclassed some mediocre opposition.

How many fighters, over the past 10 years, around Calzaghe's weight-class, would also be UNBEATEN against that lot?

Sven Okkte.

[Fenster]

That looks an impressive record by anyone standards.

He's beaten an all-time great fighter (Hopkins) and a great supermiddle (Eubank), unified against a couple of unbeaten prime fighters (Kessler and Lacy), beaten a handful of proven "world" champs (Reid, Brewer, Woodhall, Mitchell), beaten a handful of young hungry/tough contenders (Sheika, Veit, Bika, Starie) and totally outclassed some mediocre opposition.

How many fighters, over the past 10 years, around Calzaghe's weight-class, would also be UNBEATEN against that lot?

Sven Okkte.

Reid was very unlucky not to beat him (shocking ref). Brewer and Mitchell had arguable losses. I don't see him beating Hopkins, Eubank or Kessler. Starie gave him a close-ish fight.

Very slim chance, Andre, Ottke would have remained unbeaten through that level of opposition.

[Tysonbruno]

The following thread is for the rest of you guys and girls to constructively discuss and give your opinions. I'm interested in your views.
Yes we all know i hate Calzaghe but these are the reasons i don't think he is an ATG.

1. WBO title challenge - Chris Eubank , who had twice been beaten by Steve Collins , and was badly weight drained . UD 12
2. Branko Sobot - he came into the fight with a record of 14-1 , he had beaten nobody - was a very poor fighter and none puncher , is now 19-11.
3. Juan Gimenez - had already bean beaten byEubank , Nigel Benn and Roberto Duran , was a poor opponent with no chance of winning.
4.Robin Reid , this was a very close fight , many felt Reid was robbed ,Calzaghe didn't help his cause by telling us he would ko Reid as "he cant take my power " jibe was ranted. Reid had lost his title to an ancient Thulane Malinga prior to fighting Calzaghe. - SD12.
5. Rick Thornberry ,KOED by Henry Wharton prior to this fight , he earned the shot at Calzaghe by beating 3 fighters with records as follows 1-0
8-23-5 , 5-26-1 . a disgraceful choice of opponent. UD12.
6. David Starie , who had been previously stopped in a British title fight by Dean Francis ,done nothing to earn title fight. - UD12 was a sleeper.
7. Omar Sheika had lost prior to the title shot to Tony Booth 28 -44-7 ,
but he had at least beaten Glen Johnson to earn shot. TKO5.
8. Richie Woodhall ,lost to Keith Holmes , had lost his title to Marcus Byer , and earned title shot by beating former welterweight Errol Mcdonald. TKO 10.
9. Mario Veit , undefeated but untested , brushed aside with ease . two fights before his title shot had beaten one Errol Mcdonald . TKO1.
10. Will Mcintrye , this undeserving challenger had lost to Dana Rosenblatt , and earned his shot by beating Jessie Marsh 9-3-1 . and Charles Daughtry 9-25-2 , this is a joke fighter. TKO 4.
11. Charles Brewer , this hot and cold fighter was always erratic , had lost prior on two occasions to Sven Ottke , and had be KOED by Antwan Echols, Lonnie Beasley etc. UD12.
12. Miguel Jimenez , this guy had beaten nobody to earn shot , lost to Brian Magee in his next fight also. UD12.
13. Tocker Pudwill , well this guy has to be the worst of the bunch , had lost prior to Sven Ottke , sound familiar ? he earned his shot at Calzaghe by beating the following , Enrico Ramirez 5-12-1 , Donnie Pendleton 13 -139-4 ,Larry Kenney 9-32-2 , Kwan Manassah 6-16-2. now i may not like Warren or Calzaghe but this fight was a joke.TKO2.
14. Byron Mitchell , this guy at least had a good punch as he showed by flooring Calzaghe , but had lost his prior fight to Sven Ottke , sound familiar ? exciting fight anyhow. TKO 2.
15. Mger Mkratchian , this guy had earned his shot by beating a guy with a record of 2-31 , another poor fighter. TKO 7.
16. Kabary Salem , this guy had lost his prior fight to Mario Veit , after the Calzaghe fight he was KOED by Luciano Bute. UD12.
17. Mario Veit , Veit did do better than the first fight , but still was outgunned. TKO6.
18. Evans Ashira, this guy was pretty limited , he had been KOED two fights earlier by Maselino Masoe , but lasted the distance . UD12.
19. Jeff Lacy , Lacy had looked a beast against Robin Reid , he entered the right with21 wins 17 KO'S , was over hyped , Calzaghe put his finest performance so far , handing Lacy his ass. For the record Jeff Lacy hasn't scored a KO since the Calzaghe fight. UD12.
20. Peter Manfredo JR , happy to be here Manfredo was light years from being world class , he also looked a division to small. Another poor fighter. TKO3.
21. Sakio Bika , another limited fighter , fought dirty and lost widely. UD12.
22.Mikkel Kessler , undefeated and by far the most complete fighter Calzaghe had fought so far , an excellent performance , his finest for me,
Kessler has gone on to regain a title at SM. UD12.
23. Fought a 43 year old Bernard Hopkins , was floored in the first , fight was close , Hopkins didnt fight with any urgency . Another good performance .Hopkins has gone on to beat Kelly Pavlik .SD 12.

So those are the facts , as far as I'm concerned Joe Calzaghe is a top fighter , but his resume is mostly poor , Kessler and Hopkins are both top fighters but his record is littered with to much garbage.
I for one do not think that resume is one of an ALL TIME GREAT.
I am not a fan of his pitty pat slaping punches , and do not find him good to watch.
Calzaghe has fought very few fighters with big power , he has been carefully matched by Warren , and for what reason , he looks as though he could have held his own with anyfighter , even if he was beaten , he wouldnt have disgraced himself.
Im sure he is not the first fighter to be judged like this and he will not be the last. Some will blame Frank Warren for his match making but a large portion of the blame has to fall on Calzaghe.He is an excellent fighter who should have fought top fighters more , and even if he had 2-3 losses i would respect him more.
I am very interested in your views , and i have tried hard not to let my hatred of Calzaghe cloud what I'm trying to achieve.
Please discuss.

Regards
Dark Lord.

I totally agree mate but ive done things like this before and the Calzaghe lovers vision goes all blurred and they cant read it or take it in.

[Fenster]

Someone list ALL the other fighters, over the past 10 years, that would have remained UNBEATEN against Calzaghe's comp?

[QUISQUEYA]

Someone list ALL the other fighters, over the past 10 years, that would have remained UNBEATEN against Calzaghe's comp?

Calzaghe benefited from an extraordinarily weak 168 division over the past decade.

When Jeff Lacy and Mikkel Kessler are the marquee names on your resume for a Hall of Fame bid, you are a very fortunate man.

If calzaghe had been fighting the best guys from 160-175 over the past decade, would he still have his "0"?

Hopkins (not the 43 yr old version)
Jones (not the 40 yr old version)
Tarver
Taylor
Pavlik
Johnson
Toney
Winky
etc


Instead, Joey made time for Peter Manfredo and Sakio Bika.

[Fenster]

Someone list ALL the other fighters, over the past 10 years, that would have remained UNBEATEN against Calzaghe's comp?

Calzaghe benefited from an extraordinarily weak 168 division over the past decade.

When Jeff Lacy and Mikkel Kessler are the marquee names on your resume for a Hall of Fame bid, you are a very fortunate man.

If calzaghe had been fighting the best guys from 160-175 over the past decade, would he still have his "0"?

Hopkins (not the 43 yr old version)
Jones (not the 40 yr old version)
Tarver
Taylor
Pavlik
Johnson
Toney
Winky
etc


Instead, Joey made time for Peter Manfredo and Sakio Bika.

That's an impressive list of fighters. If Calzaghe had never beaten ANY you'd have a very reasonable argument..

BUT - from your list Hopkins beat

Tarver
Pavlik
Johnson
Winky

Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. That must count for something, no? He beat the man that beat the men - that supposedly could equal his achievements.

[OumaFan]

We have this same debate every single day. Literally. Its amazing if you think about it.

The positions are always the same. I want to come in here one day and see Fenster bashing Calzaghe just to spice things up.