----- Obama Wins ------

[El Kabong]

Very few of those things are worse than what Bush has done.

Being threatened with nuclear missles that were 90 miles away wasn't bad?

The Vietnam War wasn't bad? last time I checked more people were killed in that little political flub than in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

Internment Camps for a specific group of people wasn't bad The German Americans didn't get put in camps.

But oh well.....I won't try to change your mind.

[CFH]

Very few of those things are worse than what Bush has done.

Being threatened with nuclear missles that were 90 miles away wasn't bad?

The Vietnam War wasn't bad? last time I checked more people were killed in that little political flub than in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

Internment Camps for a specific group of people wasn't bad The German Americans didn't get put in camps.

But oh well.....I won't try to change your mind.

Where did I say those weren't bad things?

Many of the Bush administrations actions are on par with those things.

[El Kabong]

Where did I say those weren't bad things?

Many of the Bush administrations actions are on par with those things.

I think Vietnam FAAAAAAAR surpasses Iraq in means of stupidity and ineptitude. But you're a humble liberal and you won't accept LBJ's credit for his horrible mistake at the Gulf of Tonkin

[CGM]

Lyle, what's your main gripe with the way Clinton handled the Somalia issue in the 90s?

bump. thought you might have missed this.

[El Kabong]

Lyle, what's your main gripe with the way Clinton handled the Somalia issue in the 90s?

bump. thought you might have missed this.

What did we accomplish? We got our boys killed and left Somalia just the same as it ever was....losses for nothing. Doesn't strike me as something to be proud of

[CGM]

Lyle, what's your main gripe with the way Clinton handled the Somalia issue in the 90s?

bump. thought you might have missed this.

What did we accomplish?

Not a lot, I suppose. But you used this as an example of a Clinton failure, right? Then maybe a better question should be what should Clinton have done differently?

[El Kabong]

Well the first question I would ask is what did Clinton want to accomplish in Somalia? Did we just want to feed starving kids or oust war lords

[CGM]

Well the first question I would ask is what did Clinton want to accomplish in Somalia? Did we just want to feed starving kids or oust war lords

OK, the problem is that there is looming starvation for hundreds of thousands, caused in part by the warlords and their power struggles. Furthermore, warlords are waylaying UN aid shipments for their own people. And the troops are there to provide security for the UN. Maybe they have to oust warlords for the aid to get through. So I'd say the answer to your question is feed the kids. Without starvation, I don't think Clinton really cares about the warlords. And if we both agree on this, then the failure of Clinton would be in not exerting more force. But the original reason for the operation is a good one.

[CFH]

Where did I say those weren't bad things?

Many of the Bush administrations actions are on par with those things.

I think Vietnam FAAAAAAAR surpasses Iraq in means of stupidity and ineptitude. But you're a humble liberal and you won't accept LBJ's credit for his horrible mistake at the Gulf of Tonkin

Vietnam is just Iraq on a larger scale. They're both terrible. Just because there was a higher body count in Vietnam doesn't reduce the stupidity of Iraq. Both are criminal acts.

As for the LBJ comment, there's a difference between a liberal and a Democrat - not that I'd expect you to understand that. Actually, I'm sure you do understand that, I just don't expect you to acknowledge it. Not everything thing has to involve partisanship; I loathe the Democrats only slightly less than the Republicans. I hate what both of your political parties stand for.

[El Kabong]

So CGM, by your own rational you have given a pass to W for Iraq ...."Spreading Democracy" a good cause for a dumb move. Iraq and Somalia and Vietnam and Bay of Pigs and all other failures of the Presidents past and present were usually "Good thoughts but dumb ideas"....it's nice to think that everyone looks to the US and says "damn they are cool, I want to be just like them" but it's not the case especially in the poor countries who when we pay attention to them think we want something from them....which we usually do but still attention is attention.

CFH, I thought Liberals weren't supposed to "HATE"....that's bad mojo

[Trainer Monkey]

Where did I say those weren't bad things?

Many of the Bush administrations actions are on par with those things.

I think Vietnam FAAAAAAAR surpasses Iraq in means of stupidity and ineptitude. But you're a humble liberal and you won't accept LBJ's credit for his horrible mistake at the Gulf of Tonkin

Who sent the first "advisors" to Vietnam
That would be Eisenhower
Who told Kennedy at his inauguration "Son I think your going to have to send troops in there",Eisenhower again
And whats sad is thats probably the best Republican president of the 20th century

[CGM]

So CGM, by your own rational you have given a pass to W for Iraq ...."Spreading Democracy" a good cause for a dumb move. Iraq and Somalia and Vietnam and Bay of Pigs and all other failures of the Presidents past and present were usually "Good thoughts but dumb ideas"....it's nice to think that everyone looks to the US and says "damn they are cool, I want to be just like them" but it's not the case especially in the poor countries who when we pay attention to them think we want something from them....which we usually do but still attention is attention.

CFH, I thought Liberals weren't supposed to "HATE"....that's bad mojo

I don't see how your remarks about spreading democracy have anything to do with what I was talking about with Somalia. I told you what I thought it was about, and where maybe Clinton went wrong. You raised SOmalia as an example of Bush not the only one who screwed up. But I still have no idea what you think Clinton should have done in that situation.

[El Kabong]

Well if I pick an option on Somalia it will be with hindsight which is unfair of course. The UN is a completely worthless organization, it expects everyone to get the same say as the US but it's forces are nothing without US support and seeing what they have done in the past makes me believe counting on them to stand up for what is good and right is naive.

It is my belief that because of economic and political tampering that African nations are hard pressed to develop any true democratic or even republican forms of government. That being said, I would have sent Red Cross aid and if it got intercepted then so be it....no use in trying to build a nation from scratch, infact that usually sets their own process back. If the Somali people needed help and were organized and wanted a strong government of their own and to oust the warlords then it's their job to get the ball rolling on that and not ours.

It sounds very cold blooded and heartless but America didn't get MUCH help in acheiving freedom from England....France showed up late but the war was basically over by then.

The US has installed dictators in many places and that would have been my second choice just to develop some infastructure and maybe try and create some feeling of nationalism in the Somali people but again when it gets down to it, if it's not affecting the US economy or policies then it's the job of the Somali people to do what is right for themselves.


Basically my whole point on bringing up past failures of the Presidents is that #1 No matter what choice you can make as President you're going to piss SOMEBODY off #2 Even in hindsight you can't be right AND make everyone happy at the same time and #3 You have to pick your battles....Somalia wouldn't have been one of mine, neither would Bosnia or Sarejevo. BIG wars start in the Balkans, we got LUCKY in the mid to late 90's

[CGM]

OK Lyle, so be it, then. Myself, I'd like to think that if hundreds of thousands of lives are at stake, that someone with the ability to do something actually does do something.

Another case in point is Rwanda. UN reps knew there would be mass bloodshed, but got no help from Kofi Annan, or anyone. As soon as the going got tough, the tough flew the coop. A measely little UN force with no power or authority to do anything was left behind. Of course there were some nations that did absolutely nothing. The US for example, because of the Somalia experience, did not want to get burned in Rwanda. As a result we had a slaughter with hundreds of thousands of casualties.

What good is the UN if it can't/wont respond to shit like this? I really had a poor view of the UN because of Rwanda. You also have a poor view of the UN, but for a different reason it seems.

[CFH]

So CGM, by your own rational you have given a pass to W for Iraq ...."Spreading Democracy" a good cause for a dumb move. Iraq and Somalia and Vietnam and Bay of Pigs and all other failures of the Presidents past and present were usually "Good thoughts but dumb ideas"....it's nice to think that everyone looks to the US and says "damn they are cool, I want to be just like them" but it's not the case especially in the poor countries who when we pay attention to them think we want something from them....which we usually do but still attention is attention.

CFH, I thought Liberals weren't supposed to "HATE"....that's bad mojo

I'm doing my very best to stop myself from taking shots at "spreading Democracy". More like spreading corporate domination and industrial capitalism, but I digress.

Liberals, believe it or not, have the same emotions as right-wingers, it's all other areas of the psyche that we're superior in.

edit: I wouldn't necessarily classify myself as a liberal though to be honest.