Israel at it again

[Kev]

Finally the truth is coming out. The Times newspaper have now published the truth about the IHH. A terrorist organisation who helped organise the Millenium Bomb Plot....

Turkish charity that sent aid convoy to Gaza ‘has links to terrorism’ - Times Online

Hopefully Cameron and Clegg will now get behind Israel and support them against their enemies.

[Gandalf]

No, that is a lazily written article filled mainly with sources from the Israeli security forces. If I was a terrorist hellbent on killing Israeli soldiers I would use a machine gun and not a metal bar. Metal bars and food preparation knives, really? It's laughable. Bullets to the head are what matters here.

Watch the video I posted from The Real News earlier.

[Kev]

No, that is a lazily written article filled mainly with sources from the Israeli security forces. If I was a terrorist hellbent on killing Israeli soldiers I would use a machine gun and not a metal bar. Metal bars and food preparation knives, really? It's laughable. Bullets to the head are what matters here.

Watch the video I posted from The Real News earlier.

Miles they wanted to be martyred mate. It was a terrorist attack except instead of bombing they just attacked the isrealis to get themselves killed to score a huge propaganda win.

It isn't just the Jews who are saying they are a terrorist organisation. The Dutch regard them as such. Ironically even the Turks raided their offices a few years back and found weapons that they were smuggling into Islamic terrorist states. Look it up. It's an outrage imo.

Have you seen this vid from the ship prior the Isreali boarding?

You really think they look like humanitarian aid workers? Wow, just wow.

[Gandalf]

No, that is a lazily written article filled mainly with sources from the Israeli security forces. If I was a terrorist hellbent on killing Israeli soldiers I would use a machine gun and not a metal bar. Metal bars and food preparation knives, really? It's laughable. Bullets to the head are what matters here.

Watch the video I posted from The Real News earlier.

Miles they wanted to be martyred mate. It was a terrorist attack except instead of bombing they just attacked the isrealis to get themselves killed to score a huge propaganda win.

It isn't just the Jews who are saying they are a terrorist organisation. The Dutch regard them as such. Ironically even the Turks raided their offices a few years back and found weapons that they were smuggling into Islamic terrorist states. Look it up. It's an outrage imo.

These people didn't attack anyone, the Israeli military attacked them. They were defending themselves...with metal bars. This is what makes me laugh. Who defends themselves with a metal bar? There are all kinds of things you could plan for an attack on the military, but to resort to a sawn off metal bar taken from the actual structure of the ship itself. It's interesting and fairly original, I guess, but totally ineffective. They don't just win a propaganda battle, they help to emphasise the illegal and aggressive nature of the Israeli occupation of Palestine. Nobody can deny that what the Israeli's are doing to Gaza is inhumane.

Furthermore, in any activist group you are going to draw some extremists. It's the nature of the beast. You have an emotive issue and some will go further than others. I don't condone that, but I do understand it. The IHH is not a terrorist organisation. I think the bigger issue is that Israel is a rogue, terrorist state. They wipe out childen using illegal weapons, they build illegal settlements, they attack ships in international waters, they fake the passports of sovereign states and commit international espionage. They even attempt to sell nuclear weapons to other rogue states. These are mammoth crimes that continue to go unpunished. When will enough be enough? Israel is losing the plot right now. They have reigned themselves in to let the Irish ship through, but when will they go mad again? I've an intuitive feeling it will be quite soon.

[Kirkland Laing]

I've always taken notice of the Israel/Palestine issue really. It tends to come up a fair bit in the reading I do. I'm reading Chomsky's "Understanding power" right now and the conflict is something that keeps on recurring. It is something that I feel strongly about and I suppose Israel comes a close fourth behind the States, the UK and Korea as countries that recieve my criticism. When an act of international terrorism occurs it has an impact.

I agree that this thread and others like it have been a bit much. They are heavy and they weigh you down. Rather than being cathartic they tend to go on and on and opinions just get recycled. The Israel/Palestine conflict is no doubt extremely complex with neither side willing to give ground. This means the Israeli's continue to be paranoid and violate international law and it also means that the Palestinians continue to be run into the ground. It's horrible. The road map to peace exists and is viable, but the elite keep on bringing up obstacles and making excuses to perpetuate the status quo.

I too am going to call it quits on this thread. It's not fun and it's consuming too much energy. The khan bashing is quite fun, but this has become too much like hardwork.

Amen to that, let us never step foot in this accursed thread again. Go back to the good old days where we could unite behind, and against the might Amir.

So you're raising the white flag of surrender and running away as fast as your minature legs can go. No surprise there.

Actually on the contrary I think my point has been well made. It's now proven the flotilla was put together and funded by terrorist organisations, was populated by prominent Hamas supporters, terrorists and anti semtites and had in mind this conflict all along.

Please what point are you disagreeing with me on?

Everything I say I can back up with documented evidence unlike yourself who has to resort back to irelevent arguments such as there shouldn't even be an Isreali state and that the initial occupation was illegal, which even if true has no bearing on the specific actions of the Isreali's involved in this incident some 60 years later.

You have nothing to say other than to hurl insults, I provided you with around 30 links (out of thousands it has to be said) and you didn't look at any of them.

It sums you up really.

You haven't replied to a single one of the six original things. And you haven't proved anything, you're just parotting Israeli propaganda. In the last year Israel has claimed that Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the part of the UN that deals with refugee crisises and humanitarian disasters and the board of directors of Oxfam have ties to Al Quaeda and other terrorist groups. Just because Israel claim something and you then parrot it doesn't mean you've proved anything. Selectively edited and incomplete video footage wouldn't be accepted as evidence in any court in the world. Now you can go back and answer one of the six points I replied to earlier or you can continue to run away. You need to reply using facts and evidence, not videos which I'm not going to bother to watch. Here they are again :


1.No country surrounding Israel is any threat at all to them. None of them have any kind of military capability, Israel has attacked Lebanon, Syria and Jordan in the last few years and there's zero chance of any military response, they just don't have the ability. Saying neighbouring countries are a threat to Israel is like saying Mexico is a threat to America. Hamas are zero threat, exactly how can they destroy Israel, hmm? What happened when Israel invaded Gaza recently? How well did Hamas do in that confrontation?

2.Before Israel occupied Gaza the 30000 Gazans living there were all prosperous farmers. Now there are 1.5 million ethnically-cleansed refugess squeezed into the most densely populated places on earth and tens of thousands of Palestinian children, not to mention adults are currently suffering from chronic malnutrition.

3. Hamas are no worse than any other extremist group that would have evolved under a 40 year illegal occupation. They killed some Fatah men who'd done far worse to Hamas people when the Fatah guys had tried to overthrow Hamas -- the democratically elected Palestinian leaders -- a day previously. If you're going to judge this on bombing civilians and the number of civilian dead due to bombings then Israel are infinitely more evil than Hamas are.


4. Israel aren't trying for an easy solution, they're rejecting any attempt at peace to concentrate on their long-term objective of taking over the remaining 20% of Palestine.

5. The flotilla was a bunch of humanitarian workers, Nobel peace prize winners, European politicians. The only people claiming otherwise are the Israeli propaganda merchants. As you can see by the global reaction nobody belives the Israelis. Making a political statement is peaceful, no? Do you agree that highlighting the illegal collective punishment and mass starvation of 1.5 million people is a good political statement to make?

6. What? Of all the ridiculous statements you've made so far this is by far the silliest. This is just nonsense. Where did you get this shit from? Cite some credible source for this please, provide a link.

[Kev]

Actually the reality of this event and the terrorist like goals of the suicide activists is beginning to get out around the world.

Even the Washington Post and Times Online have called for investigation into the IHH.

The former head of France's counter terrorism affairs for 20 years, Jean-Louis Bruguiere has publicly spoken on out and told how during his tenure they found indisputable evidence that the IHH had been infiltrated by known terrorists, that they were working Al-Queada and that they were linked to the Millenium Bomb plot.

Even the Turks raided their offices in the 90's finding caches of weapons, explosives and bomb making equipment. The Danish Institute for international studies also released a document on them 2006 exposing their terrorist links.

For your convencience you can ignore looking at it here http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publicat...2006-7.web.pdf

Are you dismissing the Danish institute findings, the findings of France's counter terrorism affairs unit, the findings of the Turkish raid on their offices as all being Israeli propaganda?

You asked for evidence and the evidence has been laid out before you, but as you said above you refuse to even look at it. I guess hate doesn't like inconvenient facts and evidence to expose the hate for what it is.

Anyway as more and more people are waking up to this now and even major world papers like Washington Post and the Daily Times are urging for an investigation into IHH I no longer feel the need to argue this with an idiot such as yourself.

I leave this thread to you to with a friendly goodbye and a song

[Kirkland Laing]

Actually the reality of this event and the terrorist like goals of the suicide activists is beginning to get out around the world.

Even the Washington Post and Times Online have called for investigation into the IHH.

The former head of France's counter terrorism affairs for 20 years, Jean-Louis Bruguiere has publicly spoken on out and told how during his tenure they found indisputable evidence that the IHH had been infiltrated by known terrorists, that they were working Al-Queada and that they were linked to the Millenium Bomb plot.

Even the Turks raided their offices in the 90's finding caches of weapons, explosives and bomb making equipment. The Danish Institute for international studies also released a document on them 2006 exposing their terrorist links.

For your convencience you can ignore looking at it here http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publicat...2006-7.web.pdf

Are you dismissing the Danish institute findings, the findings of France's counter terrorism affairs unit, the findings of the Turkish raid on their offices as all being Israeli propaganda?

You asked for evidence and the evidence has been laid out before you, but as you said above you refuse to even look at it. I guess hate doesn't like inconvenient facts and evidence to expose the hate for what it is.

Anyway as more and more people are waking up to this now and even major world papers like Washington Post and the Daily Times are urging for an investigation into IHH I no longer feel the need to argue this with an idiot such as yourself.

I leave this thread to you to with a friendly goodbye and a song

Turkey is a democratic state and a NATO ally with their own Kurdish terrorism problem. They're not going to allow any kind of terrorist group to operate in their country. The IHH are one of many humanitarian groups who organised the convoy and other than Israeli propaganda outlets nobody else is claiming the flotilla has anything to do with terrorism. Some people who may have been part of the IHH who later turned out to be terrorists is no reflection on the IHH. The US army recently had a terrorist incident caused by one of their own people who "infiltrated" the US army by enlisting, but this does not make the US army a terrorist organisation. I see you're continuing to wave the white flag when it comes to repying to the points I made regaring your initial ridiculous claims and are now running away. Farewell, gnomish invalid.

[RozzySean]

Gaza strip and the Height of Golans have been occupied ILLEGALLY for the past 60 years.

More than 200 motions for crime against humanity have been voted against Israel to the UN but got voided because of the veto system (Us veto almost exclusively).

Between 15 and 20 Palestinians died for every israelites since the Intifada.

If you get terrorists and extremism, it's because the whole world hasn't done jack and shit to help Palestinian to which are suffering, lack prime and basic material for sanity and for their hospitals because of the blocus. Israel has also destroyed countless orange and fruit fields so their tanks could pass by, they are even controlling via modern barrages the water Palestinian can now have.

Do you really wonder why Hamas and the islamist Jyhad became so strong Bilbo? When you live a life of misery, that you've seen your uncle killed by snipers because he politically had power and opposed Israel, when you've seen your family field destroyed to put a cement wall and to see that some illegal peons are building houses on what belongs to you and mocking you because they are "the chosen ones"
that they call you to announce that the bulldozers will come and slash your house because your brother dared to sacrifice himself because he can't pilot a F-16 and drop 500 pounds bombs from the sky like Israel does very often how would you feel? Destroying the houses of innocents because somebody in their family dared to oppose them, nice eh?

When a guy like David Beeri is getting huge financing and that his admitted goal is to shave the houses of 3 of the biggest palestinian cities in Gaza because he claims King Salomon's temple lies somewhere under and that it is more important than anything, how would you feel knowing Israel is "ok" with it and let him get his financing and aren't opposing his methods if your family houses for generations would lie on his destruction projects? He has started to get ground there, by the way.

Steal peoples what belong to them, put them in misery for 60 years, gag ball the international community via an institution that doesn't work well, destroy illegally their home and give them water when you feel to and you have the roots to radicalism.

Don't go halfway. Just say it - it was a big fucking mistake to create the state of Israel. It has no right to exist, therefore it has no right to defend itself just like any other nation. I hope you also support the English getting the fuck out of Northern Ireland. England has illegally occupied all or part Ireland for a fuck of a lot longer.

I suppose you were supportive of the IRA when they were blowing up buses in London. If you were, perhaps you claim that you are not a hypocrite.

Go ahead, put it all on the Israeli's when the entire Arab world is just as much, if not more so, to blame for the conditions of people in Gaza. Israel would give Gaza back to Egypt in a heartbeat if they would be willing to take responsibility for it. They don't want it. Nobody wants. But go ahead and blame the Jews.

Just be honest, and I'll respect you more.

[RozzySean]

Finally the truth is coming out. The Times newspaper have now published the truth about the IHH. A terrorist organisation who helped organise the Millenium Bomb Plot....

Turkish charity that sent aid convoy to Gaza ‘has links to terrorism’ - Times Online

Hopefully Cameron and Clegg will now get behind Israel and support them against their enemies.

Damn straight, Baggins!!!

I ignored this thread for a long time, but I had to go on the record. Let Miles shoot off his anti-semitic mouth. I hope he meets a bunch of Spurs supporters in a dark alley.

[CFH]

Finally the truth is coming out. The Times newspaper have now published the truth about the IHH. A terrorist organisation who helped organise the Millenium Bomb Plot....

Turkish charity that sent aid convoy to Gaza ‘has links to terrorism’ - Times Online

Hopefully Cameron and Clegg will now get behind Israel and support them against their enemies.

Damn straight, Baggins!!!

I ignored this thread for a long time, but I had to go on the record. Let Miles shoot off his anti-semitic mouth. I hope he meets a bunch of Spurs supporters in a dark alley.

Who are the Spurs?

[Gandalf]

Finally the truth is coming out. The Times newspaper have now published the truth about the IHH. A terrorist organisation who helped organise the Millenium Bomb Plot....

Turkish charity that sent aid convoy to Gaza ‘has links to terrorism’ - Times Online

Hopefully Cameron and Clegg will now get behind Israel and support them against their enemies.

Damn straight, Baggins!!!

I ignored this thread for a long time, but I had to go on the record. Let Miles shoot off his anti-semitic mouth. I hope he meets a bunch of Spurs supporters in a dark alley.

Who are the Spurs?

Hopefully not Tottenham Hotspur fans, I hate Tottenham.

[CFH]

Gaza strip and the Height of Golans have been occupied ILLEGALLY for the past 60 years.

More than 200 motions for crime against humanity have been voted against Israel to the UN but got voided because of the veto system (Us veto almost exclusively).

Between 15 and 20 Palestinians died for every israelites since the Intifada.

If you get terrorists and extremism, it's because the whole world hasn't done jack and shit to help Palestinian to which are suffering, lack prime and basic material for sanity and for their hospitals because of the blocus. Israel has also destroyed countless orange and fruit fields so their tanks could pass by, they are even controlling via modern barrages the water Palestinian can now have.

Do you really wonder why Hamas and the islamist Jyhad became so strong Bilbo? When you live a life of misery, that you've seen your uncle killed by snipers because he politically had power and opposed Israel, when you've seen your family field destroyed to put a cement wall and to see that some illegal peons are building houses on what belongs to you and mocking you because they are "the chosen ones"
that they call you to announce that the bulldozers will come and slash your house because your brother dared to sacrifice himself because he can't pilot a F-16 and drop 500 pounds bombs from the sky like Israel does very often how would you feel? Destroying the houses of innocents because somebody in their family dared to oppose them, nice eh?

When a guy like David Beeri is getting huge financing and that his admitted goal is to shave the houses of 3 of the biggest palestinian cities in Gaza because he claims King Salomon's temple lies somewhere under and that it is more important than anything, how would you feel knowing Israel is "ok" with it and let him get his financing and aren't opposing his methods if your family houses for generations would lie on his destruction projects? He has started to get ground there, by the way.

Steal peoples what belong to them, put them in misery for 60 years, gag ball the international community via an institution that doesn't work well, destroy illegally their home and give them water when you feel to and you have the roots to radicalism.

Don't go halfway. Just say it - it was a big fucking mistake to create the state of Israel. It has no right to exist, therefore it has no right to defend itself just like any other nation. I hope you also support the English getting the fuck out of Northern Ireland. England has illegally occupied all or part Ireland for a fuck of a lot longer.

I suppose you were supportive of the IRA when they were blowing up buses in London. If you were, perhaps you claim that you are not a hypocrite.

Go ahead, put it all on the Israeli's when the entire Arab world is just as much, if not more so, to blame for the conditions of people in Gaza. Israel would give Gaza back to Egypt in a heartbeat if they would be willing to take responsibility for it. They don't want it. Nobody wants. But go ahead and blame the Jews.

Just be honest, and I'll respect you more.

I have a serious question for you here, I'm not trying to bait you or anything. Do the two have to be mutually exclusive? Even though my sympathies might lie with the Palestinians, I would not want to see Israel destroyed or the citizens of that country experience any further hardship. Impossibly as it is, I would like to see a solution which allowed both sides to live in peace. I don't think that one needs to be hold an extremist view to sympathize with the Palestinian Arabs.

[Gandalf]

Though it's not really a fair fight being up against a bunch of these supporters, can't I have a few supporters of my own in this bout? We don't want it to be too much like a reflection of the Israeli/Palestine struggle where I get my brains bashed out and then there are no questions asked by the relevant authorities.

[Gandalf]

We could have me, Nameless and Kirkland on one side and Bilbo and RozzySean on the other. But rather than actually try to kill one another, I would much prefer a peaceful contest. Though I met that horrible Israeli who I wanted to punch, I probably have no issues with most decent thoughtful Israeli's. I do have a problem with right wing lunatics though. We could have arm wrestling bouts, whilst expressing our opinions on a variety of issues.

[Kirkland Laing]

The Zionist movement started organised mass immigration of Jews from Europe to Palestine in 1880 at which time Jews made up 3%* of the population of Palestine, roughly the exact same percentage of the UK and US population that Muslims currently make up. I'm wondering how the American and British populations would react if over the next half century there was a massively-funded movement to encourage the mass immigration of Muslims to America and Britain, whereupon they would set up terrorist groups with which the help of Muslim superpower countries would over the next few decades take over 80% of America/Britain, and then spend the decades afterwards militarily occupying the other 20% while seizing more and more of the 20% to build Muslim settlements on. I wonder what the reaction of the existing American/British populations would be.

*And it had been at or around the 3% level going back centuries to when the first organised records records were made in the 1400s.