America is an illegal and racist country much like Israel

[Kev]

weren't the original non native american inhabitants in the US just British exiles? better said a large group that left Britain to escape the tyranny of a monarchy

so ummm wouldn't that make it your fault?!? lol

There were a multitude of reasons that people left Britain for the U.S., so I don't think it's accurate to describe them as 'exiles' fleeing a tyrannical monarch. It's true though that most of the people from European who went to the new world were from Britain though.

That's true. I was a bit too flippant and hasty in my response to ET to bother making that point.

Talking to aliens now? That of course makes sense as you often sound like you are from another planet.

Predators was a shocking film by the way you would have hated it. The heroine and the only person with a moral code was in the IDF, so clearly a propaganda piece. And the Predators are certainly meant to symbolise Palestinians, after all they both begin with P and end with S. They also used projectile weapons and attacked without warning.

It was pretty blatant really, the message they were trying to send. Finklestein would be outraged.

[El Kabong]

#1. I don't think Moore necessarily hates the United States, if he did he would have left a long time ago. I think he probably see's himself as some kind of patriot to be honest.

#2. I know you were just randomly listing video games, but I desperately wanted to make Q*bert out to be some kind of Zionist, but, again, I got nothing.

#1. Michael Moore hates America of that I am sure, but he apparently likes Freedom of Speech and fast food, so where else can he go? He also loves the other people that hate America, Danny Glover, Sean Penn, etc etc

#2. Q*bert steals land from Coily (the snake that bounces like a spring), Slick and Sam.....and the most damning evidence of all is Q*bert's nose [Note to Mods, I was only trying to help CFH see a connection and this is in jest, so I'll just leave it at that]


And yes miles I called you a fucking hippy because if you're so worried about the oppressed and if you don't want ANYONE to be oppressed and everyone to live peacefully together then that's what you are a dirty fucking hippy. If you're not that then you're just some nutjob socialist that doesn't like Q*bert!

[Gandalf]

To be honest, I don't like the aggressive tone of your language there, Lyle. "Fucking hippy"..."dirty fucking hippy"...."nutjob socialist"....

I don't use that kind of language or condescending tone with you so please don't do it with me. I attack political systems and use logic and reason to express my ideas. What you are doing here is resorting to base insults on a personal level and I don't think that is called for.

Even when we disagree, long time posters have a duty to adhere to a certain code of conduct. I could very easily stoop to that level and choose not to as well, but I don't. I ask you to do the same.

If you want to debate anything, then for sure let's do that, but let's not degenerate into plain filth or personal attacks on one another.

[Gandalf]

And now that the brush of 'fucking hippy' is on my mind, I will add a few thoughts. I am a human being who believes that other human beings have an obligation to treat other human beings with respect. That means power brokers have a responsibility to not abuse their power and to try and create a just society. To that extent I certainly believe in measures such as tax redistribution, free health care for all and the right to a decent education. Those kinds of thoughts are not radical and far from the values of some hippy with dreams of utopia (and I really hate pot too!). I also don't think it is above governments to act with some level of decency. This means America should not invade nations arbitrarily, Britain should do likewise and Israel shouldn't build settlements on occupied lands. These are not revolutionary pie in the sky values to have.

I mean seriously Lyle, do you not at least agree with the final points in bold above? Are they so hippy dippy?

[El Kabong]

To be honest, I don't like the aggressive tone of your language there, Lyle. "Fucking hippy"..."dirty fucking hippy"...."nutjob socialist"....

I don't use that kind of language or condescending tone with you so please don't do it with me. I attack political systems and use logic and reason to express my ideas. What you are doing here is resorting to base insults on a personal level and I don't think that is called for.

Even when we disagree, long time posters have a duty to adhere to a certain code of conduct. I could very easily stoop to that level and choose not to as well, but I don't. I ask you to do the same.

If you want to debate anything, then for sure let's do that, but let's not degenerate into plain filth or personal attacks on one another.

I'm sorry miles, I think that is a problem with the inability to show tone on the internet....when I say "fucking hippy", "dirty fucking hippy", and "nutjob socialist" my disdain is more geared towards the actual group as opposed to a personal attack on you. So in other words I fucking hate hippies and socialists I certainly hope you're neither of those, but with your views on "imperialist elites" and "the oppressed" one can't help but wonder.

[El Kabong]

And now that the brush of 'fucking hippy' is on my mind, I will add a few thoughts. I am a human being who believes that other human beings have an obligation to treat other human beings with respect. That means power brokers have a responsibility to not abuse their power and to try and create a just society. To that extent I certainly believe in measures such as tax redistribution, free health care for all and the right to a decent education. Those kinds of thoughts are not radical and far from the values of some hippy with dreams of utopia (and I really hate pot too!). I also don't think it is above governments to act with some level of decency. This means America should not invade nations arbitrarily, Britain should do likewise and Israel shouldn't build settlements on occupied lands. These are not revolutionary pie in the sky values to have.

I mean seriously Lyle, do you not at least agree with the final points in bold above? Are they so hippy dippy?

#1 Everyone has a different view of a "just society" FACT

#2 "Free Health care"....free how? Free as in Doctors and Nurses are unpaid volunteers or "free" as in TAX PAYER FUNDED health care?

#3 Everyone in the US goes to school (or at least has the opportunity to) and everyone that pays property taxes (even those without kids in school or those with kids in Private Schools) pays for those schools to exist. But yet we're still on your shit list miles, why is that?

#4 I don't hate pot, but I do hate hippies.

[Gandalf]

To be honest, I don't like the aggressive tone of your language there, Lyle. "Fucking hippy"..."dirty fucking hippy"...."nutjob socialist"....

I don't use that kind of language or condescending tone with you so please don't do it with me. I attack political systems and use logic and reason to express my ideas. What you are doing here is resorting to base insults on a personal level and I don't think that is called for.

Even when we disagree, long time posters have a duty to adhere to a certain code of conduct. I could very easily stoop to that level and choose not to as well, but I don't. I ask you to do the same.

If you want to debate anything, then for sure let's do that, but let's not degenerate into plain filth or personal attacks on one another.

I'm sorry miles, I think that is a problem with the inability to show tone on the internet....when I say "fucking hippy", "dirty fucking hippy", and "nutjob socialist" my disdain is more geared towards the actual group as opposed to a personal attack on you. So in other words I fucking hate hippies and socialists I certainly hope you're neither of those, but with your views on "imperialist elites" and "the oppressed" one can't help but wonder.

No, that's alright then. I'm not one for the keyboard warrior stuff, so was just a bit irritated. Thanks for explaining what you meant.

I think my definition of socialist is probably quite different from yours anyway. I do believe that society should be a system for drawing together rather than alienating, but I am no communist. I am no Friedman style capitalist either. I certainly don't believe in exploiting society and allowing the rich to get richer whilst the poor get poorer and lose job opportunities because jobs are lost overseas and services get cut left, right and centre.

I am in the middle of that, which is a position which respects the need for capitalism, but also sees the need for corporations to be reigned in by governments to support societal interests. That is difficult in this globalised age where home grown corporations relocate to sweatshops overseas and leave swathes of unemployment in previously prosperous cities, but that is where government does need to step in.

In that regard I see absolutely nothing wrong in taxing the upper echelons of society more in order to offer support to those who have been sold out by corporations who exist only for profit; especially considering that the rich have the largest stakes in those corporations.

I don't even regard that as a particularly socialist measure, I regard that as humanitarianism. A rich man being asked to give a small portion of his taxes over to help others gain a more equal footing in society is a reasonable thing to ask, more so if that company originally grew from the hard labour of those that have been dumped for cheap overseas workers.

Socialism is such a dirty word in the States, but it isn't elsewhere in the world. Socialism seems to be so strongly linked to communism there, which has no connection with reality. Many governments around the world are what you might term 'socialist', but in reality are 'social democracies'. The goverment is obliged to provide services such as health care, education, child support and so on. These aren't dirty terms, but are normal the world over. However, in the states you have everything being privatised in a frenzy of capitalist glut. New Oreans failed to recover in years because of this. The government simply absolved responsibility.

The same happened in Iraq too. And Argentina. And countless other countries where free scholarships were granted for students around the world to study at the Chigago school of economics and were then encouraged to go back to their home countries and be provided with US backing to overthrow democratically elected governments and cause serious problems with unemployment and cutbacks in public services whilst allowing US corporations to run riot and cash in on natural resources and the supply of overpriced and mediocre services.

Now that kind of capitalism I am not in favour of, that is an evil system. But like I say, I don't regard myself as a 'socialist' in the US media sense of the term. I do though believe in socialist democracy, which is the common rule of law in many countries the world over.

[mattboxingfan]

Psht we used to own that country.

[Gandalf]

And now that the brush of 'fucking hippy' is on my mind, I will add a few thoughts. I am a human being who believes that other human beings have an obligation to treat other human beings with respect. That means power brokers have a responsibility to not abuse their power and to try and create a just society. To that extent I certainly believe in measures such as tax redistribution, free health care for all and the right to a decent education. Those kinds of thoughts are not radical and far from the values of some hippy with dreams of utopia (and I really hate pot too!). I also don't think it is above governments to act with some level of decency. This means America should not invade nations arbitrarily, Britain should do likewise and Israel shouldn't build settlements on occupied lands. These are not revolutionary pie in the sky values to have.

I mean seriously Lyle, do you not at least agree with the final points in bold above? Are they so hippy dippy?

#1 Everyone has a different view of a "just society" FACT

#2 "Free Health care"....free how? Free as in Doctors and Nurses are unpaid volunteers or "free" as in TAX PAYER FUNDED health care?

#3 Everyone in the US goes to school (or at least has the opportunity to) and everyone that pays property taxes (even those without kids in school or those with kids in Private Schools) pays for those schools to exist. But yet we're still on your shit list miles, why is that?

#4 I don't hate pot, but I do hate hippies.

1. Hmm. What is your definition of a just society? I have outlined a rough idea of mine in the previous post. There are no 'facts' in this so stop being immature.

2. The British system which is applied in numerous other countries around the world. A progressive tax system which means the rich pay more and the poor pay less. Basically free at the point of use. I break my arm and go to hosptial then there is nobill incurred. Even the Korean system is very good. $60 paid by me and then $60 paid by my employer per month. More for those who earn more. Why do you Americans pay so much for a service that the rest of the world can get so much cheaper? Is it because you need an insurance broker as a go between? Why no public option? It's absurd.

3. On point number 3, I am now lost as to how you are relating to any of the points bolded above. I see you have avoided them entirely.....

4. I am not so enamoured of either.

[CFH]

#1. I don't think Moore necessarily hates the United States, if he did he would have left a long time ago. I think he probably see's himself as some kind of patriot to be honest.

#2. I know you were just randomly listing video games, but I desperately wanted to make Q*bert out to be some kind of Zionist, but, again, I got nothing.

#1. Michael Moore hates America of that I am sure, but he apparently likes Freedom of Speech and fast food, so where else can he go? He also loves the other people that hate America, Danny Glover, Sean Penn, etc etc

#2. Q*bert steals land from Coily (the snake that bounces like a spring), Slick and Sam.....and the most damning evidence of all is Q*bert's nose [Note to Mods, I was only trying to help CFH see a connection and this is in jest, so I'll just leave it at that]


And yes miles I called you a fucking hippy because if you're so worried about the oppressed and if you don't want ANYONE to be oppressed and everyone to live peacefully together then that's what you are a dirty fucking hippy. If you're not that then you're just some nutjob socialist that doesn't like Q*bert!

1. He could live virtually anywhere else in the Western world and be accorded many of the 'freedoms' found in America, though in many places I would image his taxes to be significantly higher. I really don't think he hates the States though, just like I don't think Penn or Glover (what did he do?) or any of those people hate the U.S. They just have ideas about what they feel is wrong about the country and about what needs to be done to repair it. I think they feel strongly about the idea of America, they're just not happy with it's current state.

2.

3. What's wrong with working to end or mitigate oppression? It'll probably never be eradicated, but I think working towards a more fair and equitable society is a noble thing.

4. Are you and I actually having a civil conversation about something like this?

This numbering system is fun

[Nameless]

To be honest, I don't like the aggressive tone of your language there, Lyle. "Fucking hippy"..."dirty fucking hippy"...."nutjob socialist"....

I don't use that kind of language or condescending tone with you so please don't do it with me. I attack political systems and use logic and reason to express my ideas. What you are doing here is resorting to base insults on a personal level and I don't think that is called for.

Even when we disagree, long time posters have a duty to adhere to a certain code of conduct. I could very easily stoop to that level and choose not to as well, but I don't. I ask you to do the same.

If you want to debate anything, then for sure let's do that, but let's not degenerate into plain filth or personal attacks on one another.

I'm sorry miles, I think that is a problem with the inability to show tone on the internet....when I say "fucking hippy", "dirty fucking hippy", and "nutjob socialist" my disdain is more geared towards the actual group as opposed to a personal attack on you. So in other words I fucking hate hippies and socialists I certainly hope you're neither of those, but with your views on "imperialist elites" and "the oppressed" one can't help but wonder.

I just have one question Lyle: Like many Americans, you seem to dread the term "socialist" but in the US, the word is more than often misunderstood from what it really is, especially because a system x that works socially and for which you agree doesn't mean that you're a socialist. So, what exactly does it mean for you? I am asking because I get confused a bit by your argumentation and I would like to make sure about what you have in mind when you're complaining about these "damn socialists"

[ono]

Have we decided what your going to do about America yet?

I've written them an angry letter.

[Gandalf]

Have we decided what your going to do about America yet?

I've written them an angry letter.

I've decided to follow that angry young chaps lead and send Obama very rude emails in the vain hope that I too can be given a lifetime ban from ever visiting America. I think America looks like a country with a lot of wonderful landscapes and an intriguing mix of people, but I would never make it through the airports. Maybe just better to protest via keyboard, get a ban and not bother going. Language all spoken in hearty jest, Lyle!

I was reading Orwell's Down and out in Paris and London today and came across this description of Jews spoken by the character, Boris. Boris tells us 'I will tell you what Jews are like. Once, in the early months of the war, we were on the march, and we had halted at a village for the night. A horrible old Jew, with a red beard like Judas Iscariot, came sneaking up to my billet. I asked him what he wanted. "Your honour", he said, "I have brought a girl for you, a beautiful young girl only seventeen. It will only be fifty francs." "Thank you", I said "you can take her away again. I don't want to catch any diseases." "Diseases!" cried the Jew, "mais, monsieur le capitaine, there's no fear of that. It's my own daughter!". That is the Jewish national character for you.'

Now that's what you call an anti-semite. Even I was reading that thinking 'easy there, Boris, that's a bit much!'. We should always distinguish between criticism of a political system and the outright denigration of a race or particular group of people. There is absolutely nothing wrong with criticising political systems or individual people who do bad. However to take a bad experience with an individual and sum it up as a defect in an entire race of people is outright prejudice. Criticism of a state is just that though and is quite distinct.

Anyway, I am enjoying this book and though that little excerpt was quite apt for this thread.

[amat]

Don't angry letters get you banned these days?

[El Kabong]

I've decided to follow that angry young chaps lead and send Obama very rude emails in the vain hope that I too can be given a lifetime ban from ever visiting America. I think America looks like a country with a lot of wonderful landscapes and an intriguing mix of people, but I would never make it through the airports. Maybe just better to protest via keyboard, get a ban and not bother going. Language all spoken in hearty jest, Lyle!

Ha, I'm no fan of Obama either so that's no big deal.

You'd love America miles, it's a marvelous wonderful place, you should visit sometime.