Can ANYBODY in history defeat 1967 Ali?

[El Kabong]

What are you bumbling on about? Of course you can only fight who is in your era.

Where have you dismantled my argument? You just keep ignoring what I wrote.

What I am saying quite clearly is that Ali fought 3 of the greatest heavyweights ever in the history of the division and you could not name me any who were better that Joe beat than them or who would be in anyone's top 10.

I am not expecting you to agree and you can have anyone as your number 1 heavyweight. Twenty five defences is a great statistic but use your common sense and intelligence. Joe was vulnerable early, got knocked down by relatively average fighters, slow footed and did not like movers. Joe was knocked out before became champion. All clear signs that Ali was the perfect boxer to beat Joe Louis, he was all wrong for him.

We can debate Jack Johnson another time he is getting in the way of this post.

Well if you can only fight who is in your era why are you holding Joe Louis' era against him? He had no control over it!


ok sure, I didn't "dismantle your argument" whatever you say.


What makes those 3 heavyweights "great"? I didn't even attempt to list off who Joe Louis beat because good, bad, indifferent they are different fighters from different eras. And while you can look at someone like Max Baer and say "He wasn't great" in his era he was a big time somebody as was James J Braddock, Jimmy Bivins was a hell of a fighter quite underrated, Jersey Joe Walcott, Jack Sharkey was a quality fighter, Max Schmeling was a quality fighter, the nearly 6'7 Buddy Baer who had a very good record was easily taken out by Joe TWICE.


Louis had trouble with movers....ok and my response was Ali had trouble with Frazier who stalked Ali down each time they fought and guess what Ali lost one of those bouts. Louis had trouble with Walcott when Louis was well past it, but in the rematch Louis knocked him spark out.


Sorry, Joe Louis is my guy, I'd take him over ANY other heavyweight, ANY @Master.....ANY

[Master]

What are you bumbling on about? Of course you can only fight who is in your era.

Where have you dismantled my argument? You just keep ignoring what I wrote.

What I am saying quite clearly is that Ali fought 3 of the greatest heavyweights ever in the history of the division and you could not name me any who were better that Joe beat than them or who would be in anyone's top 10.

I am not expecting you to agree and you can have anyone as your number 1 heavyweight. Twenty five defences is a great statistic but use your common sense and intelligence. Joe was vulnerable early, got knocked down by relatively average fighters, slow footed and did not like movers. Joe was knocked out before became champion. All clear signs that Ali was the perfect boxer to beat Joe Louis, he was all wrong for him.

We can debate Jack Johnson another time he is getting in the way of this post.

Well if you can only fight who is in your era why are you holding Joe Louis' era against him? He had no control over it!


ok sure, I didn't "dismantle your argument" whatever you say.


What makes those 3 heavyweights "great"? I didn't even attempt to list off who Joe Louis beat because good, bad, indifferent they are different fighters from different eras. And while you can look at someone like Max Baer and say "He wasn't great" in his era he was a big time somebody as was James J Braddock, Jimmy Bivins was a hell of a fighter quite underrated, Jersey Joe Walcott, Jack Sharkey was a quality fighter, Max Schmeling was a quality fighter, the nearly 6'7 Buddy Baer who had a very good record was easily taken out by Joe TWICE.


Louis had trouble with movers....ok and my response was Ali had trouble with Frazier who stalked Ali down each time they fought and guess what Ali lost one of those bouts. Louis had trouble with Walcott when Louis was well past it, but in the rematch Louis knocked him spark out.


Sorry, Joe Louis is my guy, I'd take him over ANY other heavyweight, ANY @Master.....ANY

None of the fighters you mentioned were at the level of the 3 I mentioned. None of the fighters you mentioned are in anyone's top 10 of the best heavyweights. Some of the opposition was so bad, Joe had to fight them twice.

No crime having trouble against Joe Frazier he was a great heavyweight champion. Being constantly knocked down as a champion by some poor challengers is.

I am not trying to persuade you to change your mind.

[El Kabong]

None of the fighters you mentioned were at the level of the 3 I mentioned. None of the fighters you mentioned are in anyone's top 10 of the best heavyweights. Some of the opposition was so bad, Joe had to fight them twice.

No crime having trouble against Joe Frazier he was a great heavyweight champion. Being constantly knocked down as a champion by some poor challengers is.

I am not trying to persuade you to change your mind.

How do you define that "level"? It's a bit ambiguous. Sonny Liston isn't a top 10 heavyweight, sorry. I'm not 100% certain Joe Frazier is top 10, he's around there, but golly you're talking quality of opponents one second then you're touting a guy who beat Buster Mathis for a vacant title, Foster, Ali, and who else? Jerry Quarry? Beating a great fighter once doesn't make you a great fighter it doesn't even mean you fought a great fight, sometimes the champ sucks on a specific night.

Getting knocked down doesn't mean much unless you STAY down. I guess this sort of thing really hampers the reputation of Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson among others.

It kind of seems like you're taking what I've posted personally.



Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight champion of all-time FACT.

[Master]

None of the fighters you mentioned were at the level of the 3 I mentioned. None of the fighters you mentioned are in anyone's top 10 of the best heavyweights. Some of the opposition was so bad, Joe had to fight them twice.

No crime having trouble against Joe Frazier he was a great heavyweight champion. Being constantly knocked down as a champion by some poor challengers is.

I am not trying to persuade you to change your mind.

How do you define that "level"? It's a bit ambiguous. Sonny Liston isn't a top 10 heavyweight, sorry. I'm not 100% certain Joe Frazier is top 10, he's around there, but golly you're talking quality of opponents one second then you're touting a guy who beat Buster Mathis for a vacant title, Foster, Ali, and who else? Jerry Quarry? Beating a great fighter once doesn't make you a great fighter it doesn't even mean you fought a great fight, sometimes the champ sucks on a specific night.

Getting knocked down doesn't mean much unless you STAY down. I guess this sort of thing really hampers the reputation of Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson among others.

It kind of seems like you're taking what I've posted personally.



Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight champion of all-time FACT.

I am not taking anything personally this is fun.

The names you mention on Joe Louis record, with all due respect, just do not compare. I am being very polite to them.

Joe Frazier had 9 defences and was a top 10 heavyweight on most people's list.

Getting knocked down by Two Ton Galento et al, outboxed by Conn showed his vulnerabilities. Just pointing them out and showing you Ali could have exploited them.

Just because you write FACT in capital letters does not mean he is.

Muhammid Ali is the best heavyweight ever, the quality and calibre of fighters he beat during a period regarded as the best in terms of quality, illustrates that.

[El Kabong]

I am not taking anything personally this is fun.

The names you mention on Joe Louis record, with all due respect, just do not compare. I am being very polite to them.

Joe Frazier had 9 defences and was a top 10 heavyweight on most people's list.

Getting knocked down by Two Ton Galento et al, outboxed by Conn showed his vulnerabilities. Just pointing them out and showing you Ali could have exploited them.

Just because you write FACT in capital letters does not mean he is.

Muhammid Ali is the best heavyweight ever, the quality and calibre of fighters he beat during a period regarded as the best in terms of quality, illustrates that.

Again Joe Louis could only fight the fighters in his era and AGAIN you're saying "Yeah but those guys weren't as good as these guys from the 1960's and 70's".....well damn I guess Joe needed a time machine to impress you.

Frazier's defenses...my word: Manuel Ramos, Oscar Bonavena, Dave Zyglewicz, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Bob Foster, Ali, Terry Daniels, Ron Stander.

THE Terry Daniels? THE Ron Stander?

The result of the Galento fight was? the result of the Conn fight was? A win is a win is a win is a win...sometimes you win ugly, not like Ali ever did that


I guess I had better change my opinion so that your feathers aren't ruffled

[Fatboxingfan]

That one detraction that I can make against Ali is that he couldn't seem to like mix it up toe to toe, slugging for slugging, like the Brown Bomber use it to do. Ali would like to always grab HARD around the neck when the heat was on!

[TitoFan]

The debate between Ali and Joe Louis is pretty damn near unwinnable, as they belonged to two totally different eras (no overlapping) so there aren't even any common opponents to discuss.

You guys are doing a pretty good job at debating it, though.

When we're arguing for "our guy", we always denigrate the other guy's opponents. For instance, I rate Sonny Liston highly. He was a powerful, feared fighter in his time... and only had one early defeat when he first faced Ali. He was heavily favored... and the fact Ali won counts for something right there. History repeated itself years later against George Foreman. Strong, powerful, feared, and undefeated when he faced Ali. Heavily favored, too. Ali's list of opponents over time was impressive. None of those easy, soft touches to pad his record like we've seen from other subsequent champions, even in other weight divisions. He lost the prime years of his boxing career, then came back, reinvented himself, and went on to add more boxing glory to his career. He always found a way to win. He avenged losses to Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, and Leon Spinks. Ali also fought around the globe, something I admire in a fighter.

Louis, on the other hand, has his own long, glorious career. His only loss in the prime of his career was to Max Schmeling, a loss he later avenged in spectacular fashion. He fought often, was consistent as clockwork, and faced his own formidable lineup of challengers including the feared Max Baer. I feel he was ahead of his time, having watched film of him and finding him to be surprisingly fluid as compared to most of the fighters at that time. During one particular stretch he was incredibly busy, defending his title 13 times in about 2 and a half years. With today's fighters we're lucky if they fight twice a year. His opponents during that stretch were highly rated (top 10), and Louis dispatched them with ease.

So basically it all boils down to personal opinion.

[Master]

I am not taking anything personally this is fun.

The names you mention on Joe Louis record, with all due respect, just do not compare. I am being very polite to them.

Joe Frazier had 9 defences and was a top 10 heavyweight on most people's list.

Getting knocked down by Two Ton Galento et al, outboxed by Conn showed his vulnerabilities. Just pointing them out and showing you Ali could have exploited them.

Just because you write FACT in capital letters does not mean he is.

Muhammid Ali is the best heavyweight ever, the quality and calibre of fighters he beat during a period regarded as the best in terms of quality, illustrates that.

Again Joe Louis could only fight the fighters in his era and AGAIN you're saying "Yeah but those guys weren't as good as these guys from the 1960's and 70's".....well damn I guess Joe needed a time machine to impress you.

Frazier's defenses...my word: Manuel Ramos, Oscar Bonavena, Dave Zyglewicz, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Bob Foster, Ali, Terry Daniels, Ron Stander.

THE Terry Daniels? THE Ron Stander?

The result of the Galento fight was? the result of the Conn fight was? A win is a win is a win is a win...sometimes you win ugly, not like Ali ever did that


I guess I had better change my opinion so that your feathers aren't ruffled

I do not know why you are ignoring my simple point that 1960's and 70's were regarded as the best quality of heavyweight fighters. Ali fought in that era. I am not asking that Joe Louis gets in a Delorean and fights them. You are deliberately making out that Joe Louis opposition was better when it was plainly not.

Ali could have made 25 defences in Joe's time period there was no one there that he could not beat. On the other hand Joe would have struggled with Liston, Frazier and Big George.

I could easily dissect some of Joe Louis opponents.

Jack Sharkey was a quality fighter but he was finished by the time Louis fought him, it was his last ever fight. This is the same Sharkey that fought Jack Dempsey in his prime 10 years earlier.

Max Schmeling beat up and knocked out Joe Louis so it could easily be shown that he could be beaten near his prime.

The nearly 6'7 Buddy Baer had his last 2 fights against Joe and retired so was finished and at the end of his career.

There is a reason why Braddock was called the Cinderella Man.

Yet you criticise an Olympic gold medallist and heavyweight legend like Joe Frazier and yet tell me Jimmy Bivins was underrated?

The result of the Henry Cooper was?

My feathers are not ruffled I enjoy bringing up what Ali achieved. He was way before my time but I read books, see his fights and understand what he did in the ring. No one can say that what he achieved does not make him the best ever heavyweight ever.

[Fatboxingfan]

When I pictured great brown bomber verses Smoking Joe, 1971 prime, action Frasier would have been too much for him. Lookout Smoking took ALL that Ali HAD, 15 rounds at a fastest pace anybody ever saw in boxing history. That 1971 Frazier would likely knockout brown bomber with one of his incredible left hooks!

[El Kabong]

I do not know why you are ignoring my simple point that 1960's and 70's were regarded as the best quality of heavyweight fighters. Ali fought in that era. I am not asking that Joe Louis gets in a Delorean and fights them. You are deliberately making out that Joe Louis opposition was better when it was plainly not.

Ali could have made 25 defences in Joe's time period there was no one there that he could not beat. On the other hand Joe would have struggled with Liston, Frazier and Big George.

I could easily dissect some of Joe Louis opponents.

Jack Sharkey was a quality fighter but he was finished by the time Louis fought him, it was his last ever fight. This is the same Sharkey that fought Jack Dempsey in his prime 10 years earlier.

Max Schmeling beat up and knocked out Joe Louis so it could easily be shown that he could be beaten near his prime.

The nearly 6'7 Buddy Baer had his last 2 fights against Joe and retired so was finished and at the end of his career.

There is a reason why Braddock was called the Cinderella Man.

Yet you criticise an Olympic gold medallist and heavyweight legend like Joe Frazier and yet tell me Jimmy Bivins was underrated?

The result of the Henry Cooper was?

My feathers are not ruffled I enjoy bringing up what Ali achieved. He was way before my time but I read books, see his fights and understand what he did in the ring. No one can say that what he achieved does not make him the best ever heavyweight ever.

Why were the fighters considered better? Could be they didn't have The Great Depression or WW2 to steal talented men away from the ring Could be that post WW2 America allowed for it to be easier to be a Prize Fighter as a full time job. Joe Louis went 25 in a row with the belt and Ali didn't...and therefore the Greatest Heavyweight Champion of All-Time is Joe Louis....read again...The Greatest Heavyweight CHAMPION of All-Time is Joe Louis. Was Ali more skilled? Was Lennox more skilled? Was Tyson more skilled? Was anyone else more skilled? Doesn't fucking matter 25 in a row, 1,2...twenty fucking five in a row, set 'em up knock 'em down 1-25....how difficult is that to understand?

Ali clouda shoulda woulda...you can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first JOE LOUIS DID IT....Ali could have.... Joe Louis DID


Well Joe never fought the likes of Karl Mildenberger or Brian London or Zora Folley or Richard Dunn or Joe Bunger....so don't play like Ali only fought all-time greats either.


Oh I'm sorry Joe didn't need his glove cut to save him vs Galento or Conn.


I can say Joe Louis is the Greatest Heavyweight Champion of All-Time and back it up and I have....25