A Summary of Greb

[marbleheadmaui]

Some folks were asking about Harry Greb so I thought I'd do a little summary. One question often asked is without real fight footage what can we know? Well here are some things.

In a time of eight divisions and one champion per division, Greb defeated:

Middleweight champions-George Chip, Johnny Wilson, Tiger Flowers, Mickey Walker

Light Heavy Champs-Bob Moha, Jack Dillon , Mike McTigue, Tommy Loughran, Jimmy Slattery, Maxie Rosenbloom

Heavy Champ-Gene Tunney


He defeated those men on 23 occasions

Four of those wins came after he had lost vision in one eye.


While generally weighing in between 162-166 he defeated men who fought for the heavyweight crown on seventeen occasions.


Of his 250 or so wins, 21 came over HOFers.

Nine of those wins came after the eye injury.


In nearly 300 fights he was Ko'd in his sixth fight and then one other time when he broke his arm.

In 1919 he went 45-0

In just over 15 years as a pro, Harry Greb averaged a fight every 19 days!

So the objective data says HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!

Now for the subjective stuff.

Greb was a FIGHTER. Fists were his primary weapon but he wasn't above using elbows, laces, shoulders, thumbs etc. His defining characteristic were his speed, volume punching and a swarming style. Jack Demspey thought he was faster than Benny Leonard. Tunney said Greb was like fighting an octopus. Tommy Loughran said fighting Greb was like having a boxcar full of boxing gloves dumped on you. Nat Fleischer guessed that Greb, in top form, threw nearly 200 punches a round.

Now lastly, there is no available fight footage of Greb. But that needn't stop us from making some judgements? Why not? Well because there is plenty of footage of Walker and Tunney and Loughran and McTigue and we know Greb defeated each of them.

FWIW

[El Kabong]

Once again you've provided us with a quality post.

Greb is kind of a mythic figure since there's no footage of him, but to know that such great fighters thought so highly of him is something amazing and in this day and age of such fragile egos we don't usually see this amount of respect between rivals now'a'days.

Greb had a number of very good and original nicknames ie "The Human Windmill", "The Smoke City Wildcat" etc.

[marbleheadmaui]

Once again you've provided us with a quality post.

Greb is kind of a mythic figure since there's no footage of him, but to know that such great fighters thought so highly of him is something amazing and in this day and age of such fragile egos we don't usually see this amount of respect between rivals now'a'days.

Greb had a number of very good and original nicknames ie "The Human Windmill", "The Smoke City Wildcat" etc.

The fact that Greb did what he did in terms of defeating great fighters while fighting every three weeks (on average) for fifteen years just boggles the mind. He had a rep as a drinker and party guy? Not a chance.

[Fenster]

Once again you've provided us with a quality post.

Greb is kind of a mythic figure since there's no footage of him, but to know that such great fighters thought so highly of him is something amazing and in this day and age of such fragile egos we don't usually see this amount of respect between rivals now'a'days.

Greb had a number of very good and original nicknames ie "The Human Windmill", "The Smoke City Wildcat" etc.

The fact that Greb did what he did in terms of defeating great fighters while fighting every three weeks (on average) for fifteen years just boggles the mind. He had a rep as a drinker and party guy? Not a chance.

He would be fiercely criticized today for "padding" his record.

Why do you think modern day fighters can't take the schedule/punishment of the old boys?

[marbleheadmaui]

Once again you've provided us with a quality post.

Greb is kind of a mythic figure since there's no footage of him, but to know that such great fighters thought so highly of him is something amazing and in this day and age of such fragile egos we don't usually see this amount of respect between rivals now'a'days.

Greb had a number of very good and original nicknames ie "The Human Windmill", "The Smoke City Wildcat" etc.

The fact that Greb did what he did in terms of defeating great fighters while fighting every three weeks (on average) for fifteen years just boggles the mind. He had a rep as a drinker and party guy? Not a chance.

He would be fiercely criticized today for "padding" his record.

Why do you think modern day fighters can't take the schedule/punishment of the old boys?

I suspect the following (in no order)

1. I think fighters back in the day believed they didn't have any choice. A guy like Greb believed if he didn't fight he couldn't stay sharp or improve. Today fighters think they have a choice.
2. Back then almost everyone grew up doing constant, daily physical labor from an early age. It toughened their bodies and their minds in a way that TV, video games, office jobs, automobiles, the internet and a few hours daily in the gym never can.
3. The attitude was simply different. It is telling that in Jimmy Wilde's 1920 book on the art of boxing, he devotes a chapter to injuries and how to conceal them. Think about THAT mindset for a moment!
4. The sport today is so much smaller than it was in Greb's day. I'm not sure a top guy could find an even remotely competitive fight once a month, every month, for a decade no matter how willing to travel he was.

[Fenster]

Once again you've provided us with a quality post.

Greb is kind of a mythic figure since there's no footage of him, but to know that such great fighters thought so highly of him is something amazing and in this day and age of such fragile egos we don't usually see this amount of respect between rivals now'a'days.

Greb had a number of very good and original nicknames ie "The Human Windmill", "The Smoke City Wildcat" etc.

The fact that Greb did what he did in terms of defeating great fighters while fighting every three weeks (on average) for fifteen years just boggles the mind. He had a rep as a drinker and party guy? Not a chance.

He would be fiercely criticized today for "padding" his record.

Why do you think modern day fighters can't take the schedule/punishment of the old boys?

I suspect the following (in no order)

1. I think fighters back in the day believed they didn't have any choice. A guy like Greb believed if he didn't fight he couldn't stay sharp or improve. Today fighters think they have a choice.
2. Back then almost everyone grew up doing constant, daily physical labor from an early age. It toughened their bodies and their minds in a way that TV, video games, office jobs, automobiles, the internet and a few hours daily in the gym never can.
3. The attitude was simply different. It is telling that in Jimmy Wilde's 1920 book on the art of boxing, he devotes a chapter to injuries and how to conceal them. Think about THAT mindset for a moment!
4. The sport today is so much smaller than it was in Greb's day. I'm not sure a top guy could find an even remotely competitive fight once a month, every month, for a decade no matter how willing to travel he was.

Makes sense.

Do you know the average payday a fighter like Greb was on? What was the difference between title and "gimme" fights?

[Cressa121]

Thanks for that. Looking at his accomplishments, hearing how highly other fighters thought of him at that time and seeing footage of some of the fighters he beat certainly indicates he was something special.

That website link you posted in the other thread has a few newspaper articles about the possibility of Greb fighting Dempsey. It mentions the sparring sessions and of a deal being close at one point around 1922, but doesn't say why they never fought. Why was that? Did Dempsey just decide against it and to continue touring the country? The articles date to about 1920 when it talks of a possible Greb-Dempsey match, and Dempsey only fought 6 times between 1920 and 1926 against Miske (for whom he sparred with Greb), Brennan, Carpentier, Darcy, Gibbons and Firpo.

Or was it because Greb lost twice to Tunney and once to Loughran in 1923, killing the possibility of a Dempsey fight? Just curious as to why it never happened when the articles indicated it was almost a done deal

[KananKrus]

Harry Greb is best known as the only fighter to defeat the great "fighting marine" Gene Tunney! These boxing icons fought five times...


Greb wins the first - ... American Light Heavyweight Title Bout broadcast on radio by KDKA
"Pittsburgh Post reported that Tunney fought extremely well. He made a great fight for 10 rounds, but Greb set a pace in the last five that overwhelmed Gene. Tunney's eyebrows were cut and he bled at the nose and mouth. Greb fought his usual fight, all over his man, and chopping him up. Tunney fought Greb much better than Tommy Gibbons had done in New York."


They rematched four more times... with Tunney winning two in a row... a NC, and ending the saga with a win.

The first rematch - "Most experts thought that Tunney had an edge by his cleaner blows. Regis Welsh of the Pittsburgh Post thought that Greb was robbed. Greb was the aggressor and Tunney the counterpuncher. Greb was made to observe the rules closely and this undoubtedly curbed his usual free-wheeling style. The fight was undoubtedly closely contested"

The second rematch - "The concensus was that Tunney won 9 rounds, Greb four, and two were even. Tunney mounted a body attack that allowed him to dominate the fight from rounds 8 to 14. The first seven rounds were evenly fought and Greb rallied strongly to win the 15th. Greb landed many more punches but Tunney's were harder and cleaner. There were no knockdowns."


The third rematch -"Referee stated he would have ruled a draw;
Stuart M. Bell from Cleveland Plain Dealer scored for Greb 6-3-1;
Lima News (AP) called it a draw, but reported that many ringsiders, including those from Pittsburgh thought Tunney had the edge; Lincoln State Journal stated majority of ringside reporters had it a draw; Oakland Tribune said majority thought it a draw, although Tunney "possibly entitled to the shade"; Ray Coll in Pittsburgh Gazette-Times scored it a draw;
Zanesville Signal (INS wire) gave edge to Greb 5-4-1; Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune/Milwaukee Journal (United News wire) said newspapermen gave Greb "all but the tenth round"; Jim Jab from Pittsburg Press scored for Greb 7-3"

The last -"Tunney gave Greb as thorough a beating as he has ever received. So completely was Greb outclassed and outfought in six of the ten rounds that he resorted to a defensive fight after the third and thereafter was guilty of persistent holding and stalling varied only by rare flashes of offensive fighting, which Tunney quickly terminated by a devastating attack. Tunney concentrated his fire almost entirely on Greb's heart and body, landing with deadly accuracy and telling effect. After a flashy start, Greb went on the defensive and let entire rounds go by without making more than a weak show of attack, without landing a decisive punch, even on those rare occasions when he undertook to do the leading." (Associated Press)



Harry Greb videos:










Gene Tunney highlight videos




"The Long Count."...
Tunney vs Dempsey

[marbleheadmaui]

Harry Greb is best known as the only fighter to defeat the great "fighting marine" Gene Tunney! These boxing icons fought five times...


Greb wins the first - ... American Light Heavyweight Title Bout broadcast on radio by KDKA
"Pittsburgh Post reported that Tunney fought extremely well. He made a great fight for 10 rounds, but Greb set a pace in the last five that overwhelmed Gene. Tunney's eyebrows were cut and he bled at the nose and mouth. Greb fought his usual fight, all over his man, and chopping him up. Tunney fought Greb much better than Tommy Gibbons had done in New York."


They rematched four more times... with Tunney winning two in a row... a NC, and ending the saga with a win.

The first rematch - "Most experts thought that Tunney had an edge by his cleaner blows. Regis Welsh of the Pittsburgh Post thought that Greb was robbed. Greb was the aggressor and Tunney the counterpuncher. Greb was made to observe the rules closely and this undoubtedly curbed his usual free-wheeling style. The fight was undoubtedly closely contested"

The second rematch - "The concensus was that Tunney won 9 rounds, Greb four, and two were even. Tunney mounted a body attack that allowed him to dominate the fight from rounds 8 to 14. The first seven rounds were evenly fought and Greb rallied strongly to win the 15th. Greb landed many more punches but Tunney's were harder and cleaner. There were no knockdowns."


The third rematch -"Referee stated he would have ruled a draw;
Stuart M. Bell from Cleveland Plain Dealer scored for Greb 6-3-1;
Lima News (AP) called it a draw, but reported that many ringsiders, including those from Pittsburgh thought Tunney had the edge; Lincoln State Journal stated majority of ringside reporters had it a draw; Oakland Tribune said majority thought it a draw, although Tunney "possibly entitled to the shade"; Ray Coll in Pittsburgh Gazette-Times scored it a draw;
Zanesville Signal (INS wire) gave edge to Greb 5-4-1; Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune/Milwaukee Journal (United News wire) said newspapermen gave Greb "all but the tenth round"; Jim Jab from Pittsburg Press scored for Greb 7-3"

The last -"Tunney gave Greb as thorough a beating as he has ever received. So completely was Greb outclassed and outfought in six of the ten rounds that he resorted to a defensive fight after the third and thereafter was guilty of persistent holding and stalling varied only by rare flashes of offensive fighting, which Tunney quickly terminated by a devastating attack. Tunney concentrated his fire almost entirely on Greb's heart and body, landing with deadly accuracy and telling effect. After a flashy start, Greb went on the defensive and let entire rounds go by without making more than a weak show of attack, without landing a decisive punch, even on those rare occasions when he undertook to do the leading." (Associated Press)



Harry Greb videos:










Gene Tunney highlight videos




"The Long Count."...
Tunney vs Dempsey

Great post. Thanks!

[marbleheadmaui]

Thanks for that. Looking at his accomplishments, hearing how highly other fighters thought of him at that time and seeing footage of some of the fighters he beat certainly indicates he was something special.

That website link you posted in the other thread has a few newspaper articles about the possibility of Greb fighting Dempsey. It mentions the sparring sessions and of a deal being close at one point around 1922, but doesn't say why they never fought. Why was that? Did Dempsey just decide against it and to continue touring the country? The articles date to about 1920 when it talks of a possible Greb-Dempsey match, and Dempsey only fought 6 times between 1920 and 1926 against Miske (for whom he sparred with Greb), Brennan, Carpentier, Darcy, Gibbons and Firpo.

Or was it because Greb lost twice to Tunney and once to Loughran in 1923, killing the possibility of a Dempsey fight? Just curious as to why it never happened when the articles indicated it was almost a done deal

There are conflicting reports on why that fight didn't happen. One of course is Greb scared the crap out of Jack Kearns, Dempsey's manager. A second is Greb at 165 or so just wouldn't be sellable as heavyweight material for an "event fight." The second is a little tougher to swallow given he had beaten several men Dempsey later fought for the crown. I think you're right on Tunney. Greb lost that spot when he lost to Tunney a couple of times.

There is one other thing to remember. Back then the heavyweight crown was so important and so visible the champion made as much or more money doing ancillary things, movies, vaudeville, exhibitions without risk that only event fights really made financial sense.