Israel at it again

[Gandalf]

Wow, it makes you wonder what trick they are going to pull next. In this case you have ships with aid which are in international waters being jumped on by the Israeli military. Now the Israeli military is saying that these people opened fire first, but this isn't clear. And even if they had opened fire with their small arms, the Israeli's must have already boarded the ships first. Either way it doesn't get around the fact the Israeli's have been torturing the Palestinians in Gaza for a long time now and it has only got worse with the blockades. Why should these ships have needed to go to an Israeli port? The Israeli's can't even be trusted to allow fresh water to get through.

Time and time again we are seeing Israel act with complete immunity from serious criticism from the international community. They keep on building illegal settlements, they deny human rights at an ethnic level within their own borders, they even have the Gazan's trapped inside and unable to recieve aid freely, they even forge international passports and carry out international espionage. We see North Korea being sanctioned after shooting down a battleship, we see Iran continually being built up as the bad guy in the middle east and yet Israel continues to violate international laws and act with impunity.

When will something be done? This latest carry on doesn't surprise me in the least, but it does anger me immensely. I'm sure we will see a few negative words about the Israeli actions and then it will all be forgotten again until the next time....and the next time...and the next time....and the next time.

Israel attacks Gaza flotilla - live coverage | World news | guardian.co.uk

[Gandalf]

Oh, and let's not forget that thread that Jaz started last week showing that the Israeli's will even stoop as low as to trade nuclear weapons with rogue states.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

Chronic malnutrition in Gaza blamed on Israel - Middle East, World - The Independent

gone on for years

[Nameless]

I've read the exact same thing 30 minutes ago and I was wildly shocked. The fact that there are some european politicians on the boat might spark out a bit more anger from the European countries and I really hope that it will help to change something a bit.

[Master]

No real excuse for this.

[Kev]

I saw this on the bbc website so thought I'd log on here to see Miles' thread, knowing it would be up already.

Sure enough

[Oggie]

Don't know exactly what happened in the events leading up to the incident, but they shouldn't have boarded the boat in international waters (unless of course the were being fired at by the flotilla.)

Regardless, you can already see the damaging effect it is having on Israel's international relations, could be a big backlash against them now.

[Gandalf]

I saw this on the bbc website so thought I'd log on here to see Miles' thread, knowing it would be up already.

Sure enough

Yes, it's one of my pet topics.

If they would stop being such lunatics I wouldn't have to keep starting threads on them. I only didn't start the last one because Jaz beat me to it.

I cannot believe they actually boarded the ship and started shooting. A minimum of 19 dead and 30 plus injured? This is beyond outrageous. I hope there is a huge response internationally and that people take to the streets everywhere. The suffocation of the Gazan people needs to end, just maybe this will wake everyone up. I see there have been huge protests in Turkey.

I just saw on the news William Hague apparently saying something along the lines of "we think the loss of life is terrible but there was always risk in approaching Gaza in such a way". Why should there be any risk? Palestine should be a free country. The waters were international waters. Aid should be allowed into Palestine at any time. Unbelievable attitudes. Israel should NOT be getting away with this shit! The ships were nowhere near the shore anyway.

[Gandalf]

Don't know exactly what happened in the events leading up to the incident, but they shouldn't have boarded the boat in international waters (unless of course the were being fired at by the flotilla.)

Regardless, you can already see the damaging effect it is having on Israel's international relations, could be a big backlash against them now.

Apparently they were 30km's away from Gaza. The blockade imposed by Israel is illegitimate anyway. Can you imagine France declaring "we are going to impose a blockade on England" and then proceeding to block anything coming over the channel and then shooting people dead if they then felt like it? It wouldn't fly in a million years and yet Israel is allowed to do so?

[Oggie]

Don't know exactly what happened in the events leading up to the incident, but they shouldn't have boarded the boat in international waters (unless of course the were being fired at by the flotilla.)

Regardless, you can already see the damaging effect it is having on Israel's international relations, could be a big backlash against them now.

Apparently they were 30km's away from Gaza. The blockade imposed by Israel is illegitimate anyway. Can you imagine France declaring "we are going to impose a blockade on England" and then proceeding to block anything coming over the channel and then shooting people dead if they then felt like it? It wouldn't fly in a million years and yet Israel is allowed to do so?

Yeah, it's pretty mad alright.
Tensions are very high in situations like these, similar to the China/Tibet or China/Taiwan situation. Countries like Israel and China take it as a personal attack on their national interests, even if it is intended as a protest.

But, as Master already said, this action cannot be defended. The flotilla was not carrying the firepower to launch significant attacks from boat to boat (which is the only justification for needing to board the flotilla in international waters). Israel have even said themselves that only light weaponry (if even that!) was found on the boat... this makes me believe they just stormed the flotilla unnecessarily. After that, the events are anyone's guess... I'm hearing two contrasting stories at the moment. Have to wait for some undercover video to judge.

[Gandalf]

To think that America gives this terrorist state over 3 billion dollars a year and sells it arms. Surely it's time for Israel to be isolated and for all trade and financial aid to be suspended. If Iran can be threatened with sanctions and North Korea already has them, then surely an event like this warrants the same kind of response. It is hardly an isolated incident, it's the latest in a whole long line of international violations.

[Kev]

I do think you guys are being very one sided in this.

The blockade is in place because terrorists were bombing and killing Israeli's in Israel on virtually daily basis up until Israel invaded.

If Wales revolted from the UK and was killing English people in English towns and cities every day we would do exactly the same.

Hamas was a legitimate terror threat and Israel were/are at war with them. The blockade has been in place the past couple years to try and prevent them from being able to rearm and minimise the threat to the Israeli people.

It's really hard to comprehend what it must be like to be a small country surrounded by enemies on every border like Israel is.

America and the UK typically have invaded countries thousands of miles away under the pretext that they 'may' pose a threat to us at some indeterminate future.

It's obviously far from ideal but it's not fair to just put all the blame onto Israel, I really doubt our country or America would act any differently to how they have the past decades, and especially in recent years.

[Gandalf]

I'm sorry Bilbo, but throughout the years the Iraeli/Palestine conflict has been extremely one sided. Just look at what happened a couple of years ago when Israel stormed Gaza. Well over a thousand wiped out because of a couple of stray misiles. When you are a nation that has been as victimised as Palestine has you are bound to get individuals and groups who want to get revenge for the loss of loved ones or those that feel (quite rightly IMO) that the modern state of Israel is a farce. Hamas like it or not is the party chosen by the Palestinians to represent them and that needs to be respected. I find the differences between a lot of democratically elected governments and terrorist states to be tenuous at best. It's just that in this instance the 'terrorist' group found some support as it moved into the political arena. In Israel's instance it's usually about getting elected before turning to 'internationally acceptable' terrorism. The Palestians have been remarkably reserved in recent years considering how the Israeli's have been carrying on with the Gaza concentration camp and illegal settlement building.

I see no way to justify an attack upon a group of ships miles from land, carrying journalists, activists and otherwise decent people all with a shared belief that what Israel has been doing is not only illegal, but profoundly inhumane. Torturing people is no way to build peace in the region. Jumping on board and trying to massacre them was really not called for in the slightest.

[Nameless]

Gaza strip and the Height of Golans have been occupied ILLEGALLY for the past 60 years.

More than 200 motions for crime against humanity have been voted against Israel to the UN but got voided because of the veto system (Us veto almost exclusively).

Between 15 and 20 Palestinians died for every israelites since the Intifada.

If you get terrorists and extremism, it's because the whole world hasn't done jack and shit to help Palestinian to which are suffering, lack prime and basic material for sanity and for their hospitals because of the blocus. Israel has also destroyed countless orange and fruit fields so their tanks could pass by, they are even controlling via modern barrages the water Palestinian can now have.

Do you really wonder why Hamas and the islamist Jyhad became so strong Bilbo? When you live a life of misery, that you've seen your uncle killed by snipers because he politically had power and opposed Israel, when you've seen your family field destroyed to put a cement wall and to see that some illegal peons are building houses on what belongs to you and mocking you because they are "the chosen ones"
that they call you to announce that the bulldozers will come and slash your house because your brother dared to sacrifice himself because he can't pilot a F-16 and drop 500 pounds bombs from the sky like Israel does very often how would you feel? Destroying the houses of innocents because somebody in their family dared to oppose them, nice eh?

When a guy like David Beeri is getting huge financing and that his admitted goal is to shave the houses of 3 of the biggest palestinian cities in Gaza because he claims King Salomon's temple lies somewhere under and that it is more important than anything, how would you feel knowing Israel is "ok" with it and let him get his financing and aren't opposing his methods if your family houses for generations would lie on his destruction projects? He has started to get ground there, by the way.

Steal peoples what belong to them, put them in misery for 60 years, gag ball the international community via an institution that doesn't work well, destroy illegally their home and give them water when you feel to and you have the roots to radicalism.

[Gandalf]

I was harsh on William Hague earlier because of the short snippet released by BBC News, but having read his transcript in full he spoke a lot of sense all in all. The blockade needs to be opened and Palestinians need to be allowed open access to aid.

Protests are apparently forming in London already. You get the sense that Israel has really crossed the line this time and that just maybe the world has had enough. The Israeli's are trying to defend themselves, but they come across as blatant liars. This was ordered from the top and unfortunately for them, the world just isn't buying the bullshit. My own worry is the amnesia involved in cases like this, it's always such an issue for a few days and we all get outraged, but then it all gets forgotten.

It's about time the words got supported with concrete actions. Sanctions and isolation would be the ideal result, but I'm not so optimistic. Unfortunately for those who can protest and have intellect as a defence, those in power can ignore them and continue to listen to the lobbyists and false academics who have both wealth and power on their side. How can you sanction Israel when their biggest ally is the biggest terrorist state in the world? That's where it's all seriously screwed up.