So....is war in the Middle East imminent?

[amat]

I'm not stupid Nameless and I don't need an article from the National Socialist Review to tell me about how we filtered weapons into Afghanistan to fight the commies. The guy who wrote it conveniently ignores the fact that the Russians were slaughtering the Afghans to get their pipeline to the sea, it was either us or them.

The article could have been deduced to the last paragraph, we fucked up in ignoring Afghanistan after the Russians retreated but that's the only way we we fucked up there. We needed someone to fight the Russians and only those people were willing to step up for us.

[Nameless]

I'm not stupid Nameless and I don't need an article from the National Socialist Review to tell me about how we filtered weapons into Afghanistan to fight the commies. The guy who wrote it conveniently ignores the fact that the Russians were slaughtering the Afghans to get their pipeline to the sea, it was either us or them.

The article could have been deduced to the last paragraph, we fucked up in ignoring Afghanistan after the Russians retreated but that's the only way we we fucked up there. We needed someone to fight the Russians and only those people were willing to step up for us.

That's the thing. US didn't ignore them. They helped Talibans to stay in place and even invited them to Washington to promote their image as an allied regime. They knew what they were all about but it was very ok for them, as long as they deliver.

"In March 2001, several Taliban officials, including Sayed Rahmattulah Hashimi, Mullah Omar's personal advisor, were invited to Washington by their U.S. lobbyist, Leila Helms, the niece of former CIA Director Richard Helms. The agenda included discussions of extraditing bin Laden as well as facilitating American companies' access to oil reserves in central Asia. The delegation met with representatives of the Directorate of Central Intelligence (DCI) and the Bureau of Intelligence and Research of the State Department.

This visit provoked concern and criticism in Washington over how Hashimi obtained a visa, a plane ticket, security clearance and access to American institutions -- including the State Department and the National Security Council -- despite travel restrictions on Taliban leadership imposed by U.N. sanctions (the official answer was that Hashimi fell below the rank of senior official covered by the sanctions.)"

US - Taliban Oil pipeline negotiations. - Democratic Underground

[Nameless]

Please comment on my points below and tell me where you disagree.

Firstly, the idea that they are being starved to death is simply not bourne out. The Palestinian population has actually increased, from 240,000 in 1950 to 1.5 million today.

Even in Africa where they starve to death population are raising up. That doesn't mean they are in humane living condition. Also, I never saif they were starving to death, I said they were trapped in shit conditions and didn't have access to many medical stuff and other important material they need to live with dignity, it's very different. This is a false logic argument here, Bilbo.

Secondly when Israel took over control of Gaza in 1967 the average life expectancy of a Palestinaian was 48 years. Now despite being brutally mistreated their life expectanies have INCREASED to 72 years, making them the only persecuted people's in history to have seen their health so drastically improve under such intolerable conditions.

#1 Israel do not help the blocked Part of Gaza with their hospitals. #2 life expectancy did raise up everywhere in the world, that's not a surprise it did here as well. #3, 53% of Women reproductive age women and 44% of children are proven to be anemic. Live up to 72 in a shit condition. The stats you give are very partial and are just designed to cover some numbers and simple important facts; Gaza Strip - New World Encyclopedia

Interestingly infant mortality in Palestine since the Jews took over has dropped from 100 per 1000 live births to 23 per 1000 live births.

Despite your claims to drinking water being withheld, they actually have far more access now than they didn prior to 1967. Also illiteracy was rampant prior to 1967 whereas now, again under Israeli control illiteracy has been almost wiped out amongst those born after 1967.

More than 40% of Gaza is lacking water.

Palestinian water authority: 40% of Gazans lack running water - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Palestine, West Bank: residents face severe water shortage as drought continues

Once again, only pro Israel lobbies are trying to mask these facts giving either bogus numbers or not talking about the fact that during dry periods, Palestinians can't get water where they used to go before because Israel block them the access. Pumping their water or blocking them some alternative sources they used to possess is 2 different things.

These statistical facts obviously don't help the anti-Israeli cause however and so never get mentioned.

Wrong. These statistics do not include the fact that the Hamas, as much as we hate them, did created countless hospital and organization to help the peoples and improve their conditions. Israel never helped them in that behalf and without the contribution they did make on that plan, it would be much worst.

Also there have been numerous false allegations made against Israel, which have been proven false, yet still the idea still persist.

The 2002 massacre of hundred of Palestiniants in Jenin for example has since been exposed as a total fabrication. The bombing of two Lebanese Red Cross ambulances in 2006, which received worldwide condemnation was later found to be a hoax as well yet only the condemnation of Israel is ever publicised. When events are proven to be not as desrcibed, no retraction of Isreal's 'wrong doing' is made thus the myth of Jewis aggression persists in the minds of the public.

Wrong. These massacres happened. The only who denied the thing are the Jerusalem Posts and other newspaper belonging to the jewish lobbies. The army even denied Canadian, the Red Cross and others access pretending and did just let them access in the aftermath, see Philip Winslow's book, p.67 and the official UN report about it which I've read but too lazy to search at the moment.

The fake killing of the 12 year old Palestinian Mohammed al-Dura in 2000 is another atrocity commited against Israel. The whole event was staged, he wasn't even dead but was killed later by the Arabs to propogate their atrocity claims. It was an evil, inhumane attempt to besmirch the Israeli reputation.

I don't know about that one so I can'T comment. However, killing one person is not better than the Israelites killing themselves Ytzak Rabin in a hope to clench down the peace process. This argument is not valid to depict the israelite Gov as good guys in either case. I also never said that every Palestinian were perfect and haven't done only good things. The focus point is: They are put in the direst position imaginable and it is illegal, especially when you realize that the Israelite have killed much more palestinians civilians than israelite civilians have been killed:

First Intifada: 1,100 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces and 164 Israelites by Palestinians.

Second Intifada: 5,500 Palestinians and slightly over 1,000 Israelites.





Now my questions: you never answered how it was correct to bypass international laws and steal the lands from the very well documented 1967 borders.
You also didn't mention why it was o.k to blow out the houses of peoples to punish them for having somebody in their family who was in the Hamas.

I would also like you to explain me how forbidding Arafat from going out from his Q.G all year long and humiliating internationally was any good if you really and seriously thought about a peace process.

Finally, I would like to know why international and independent institutions such as the Red Cross, the UN observers and other organizations have given evidence of crimes against humanity perpetrated by Israel and why the world voted 200 motions against them at the UN. Is it an international plot against Israel orchestrated by the free masons or?

If you want a very good book written on the Gaza subject by an imminent PHD professor (and jewish on top of it with family that has been blown off in Auschwitz) : http://orbooks.com/thistime/buy-this...paign=flotilla

[Gandalf]

Good call on Finkelstein Nameless, he is someone well worth reading and listening to. I'm not going to add anymore to this thread right now because I am tired and can't be bothered with anything deep or meaningful. It's pushing 1am and I have to stay up all night waiting for this bloody football, but Finkelstein is good anyway.