If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Froch,

[mafiajoey]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.

Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.

But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.

And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is?

Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.

LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags?

JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?

Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.

Well, let's make this very simple for you.

Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.

Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.

The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.

The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.

Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.

Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.

Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.

My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.

Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.

What does your guess on Floyd not being able to make a 147lb same day weigh in have to do with ANYTHING?

[generalbulldog]

while Martinez has said that he can make 154 pounds but prefers not too as it does not play to his strengths.

DiBella – “Martinez would knock Pacquiao the **** out” | Boxing Dispatch - News, Features, Interviews, Videos, Chat

I was wrong Sergio did say he can make 154 but prefers not to because it does not play to his strengths. Meaning he could possibly be ineffective and/or weight drain. You know it would get crazy here and other boxing forums would be, "The cowardly Pacquiao has decided to weight drain another opponent at another catchweight and make Sergio ineffective, that's why he won. He should have been man enough to jump another 2 weight classes and fight Martinez at 160, his natural weight."

To get back on topic, if Martinez can't find any decent opposition at 160 maybe it's time to move up and challenge the Wards, Butes, Frochs, Kesslers as I've said. Half of the boxing fans on this forum and other boxing forums have proclaimed Martinez the best of the best in this sport, so how about challenging the no. 1 fighter at 168 in Ward?

[marbleheadmaui]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.

Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.

But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.

And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is?

Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.

LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags?

JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?

Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.

Well, let's make this very simple for you.

Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.

Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.

The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.

The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.

Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.

Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.

Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.

My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.

Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.

What does your guess on Floyd not being able to make a 147lb same day weigh in have to do with ANYTHING?

it's a direct comment on a comment made in the previous post. This reading thing too much for you?

[Gandalf]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.

Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.

But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.

And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is?

Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.

LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags?

JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?

Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.

Well, let's make this very simple for you.

Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.

Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.

The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.

The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.

Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.

Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.

Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.

My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.

Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.

Day before weigh ins are what we have and those photos illustrate a lot. If you really don't think there is anything different between a Manny who weighs in at 130 and a Manny who weighs in at 147, then I really don't know what to say. The difference is night and day. One looks like he is dying of AID's the other is a figure of health. Just look at them. They are different beasts come fight night as a result. The healthy one would likely maul the malnutritioned one. By doing what he is currently doing, he is a proper WW, it's just that he doesn't rehydrate as much. If he wasn't a WW, then he wouldn't be weighing above 140.

I bet he could boil down to 135, but I am convinced he would suffer as a consequence. The guy is simply bigger than he used to be.

[marbleheadmaui]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.

Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.

But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.

And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is?

Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.

LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags?

JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?

Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.

Well, let's make this very simple for you.

Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.

Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.

The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.

The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.

Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.

Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.

Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.

My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.

Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.

Day before weigh ins are what we have and those photos illustrate a lot. If you really don't think there is anything different between a Manny who weighs in at 130 and a Manny who weighs in at 147, then I really don't know what to say. The difference is night and day. One looks like he is dying of AID's the other is a figure of health. Just look at them. They are different beasts come fight night as a result. The healthy one would likely maul the malnutritioned one. By doing what he is currently doing, he is a proper WW, it's just that he doesn't rehydrate as much. If he wasn't a WW, then he wouldn't be weighing above 140.

I bet he could boil down to 135, but I am convinced he would suffer as a consequence. The guy is simply bigger than he used to be.

Nope. That's simply wrong. It is a temporary condition easily remedied. Why? Because it does NOT represent malnourishment, merely temporary deydration. These guys get roughly 30 hours to recover. That is plenty of time to normalize the body. How do I know I'm right? Manny at 130 the day before fights around 145. Manny who the day before is 145 fights at 147 or so. And both guys can go non-stop for twelve rounds without a problem.

[Gandalf]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.

Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.

But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.

And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is?

Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.

LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags?

JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?

Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.

Well, let's make this very simple for you.

Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.

Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.

The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.

The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.

Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.

Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.

Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.

My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.

Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.

Day before weigh ins are what we have and those photos illustrate a lot. If you really don't think there is anything different between a Manny who weighs in at 130 and a Manny who weighs in at 147, then I really don't know what to say. The difference is night and day. One looks like he is dying of AID's the other is a figure of health. Just look at them. They are different beasts come fight night as a result. The healthy one would likely maul the malnutritioned one. By doing what he is currently doing, he is a proper WW, it's just that he doesn't rehydrate as much. If he wasn't a WW, then he wouldn't be weighing above 140.

I bet he could boil down to 135, but I am convinced he would suffer as a consequence. The guy is simply bigger than he used to be.

Nope. That's simply wrong. It is a temporary condition easily remedied. Why? Because it does NOT represent malnourishment, merely temporary deydration. These guys get roughly 30 hours to recover. That is plenty of time to normalize the body. How do I know I'm right? Manny at 130 the day before fights around 145. Manny who the day before is 145 fights at 147 or so. And both guys can go non-stop for twelve rounds without a problem.

So you are trying to tell me that a dehydrated Manny Pac would have just as much a chance of beating a more healthy looking, more muscular Manny at a day in weight of let's say 148 pounds? Hmm, I can't say I agree with that.

The dehydration is a factor and many fighters have complained about having to cut weight to fight and have spoken of the negative impact upon their own performances. Corrales, Morales and Toney spring readily to mind, but there are countless others that can be cited with a little consideration. In fact Manny himself looked quite drained and fought like it against Barrera the second time out. He was able to fight only in spurts and his last close fight was against Marquez. Since being free of draining he has shown greater rates of activity and looked like an energizer bunny. He slowed against Mosley, but has cited an injury.

Both pre drain and post drain Pac would come in at similar weights, but I have to differ with your conclusion that they are different beasts. Pac more recently at the lower weights had started to look a bit like a beatable fighter and the cutting quite obviously didn't help. The current one looks sharper, stronger and just as fast.

[Gandalf]

Not different beasts I mean, sorry was typing in a hurry as I don't have much time.

[generalbulldog]

I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.

This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?

The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!

If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.

There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.

Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?

And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?

Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.

Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition. Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.

But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.

And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is?

Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.

LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags?

JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?

Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.

Well, let's make this very simple for you.

Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.

Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.

The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.

The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.

Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.

Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.

Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.

My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.

Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.

Day before weigh ins are what we have and those photos illustrate a lot. If you really don't think there is anything different between a Manny who weighs in at 130 and a Manny who weighs in at 147, then I really don't know what to say. The difference is night and day. One looks like he is dying of AID's the other is a figure of health. Just look at them. They are different beasts come fight night as a result. The healthy one would likely maul the malnutritioned one. By doing what he is currently doing, he is a proper WW, it's just that he doesn't rehydrate as much. If he wasn't a WW, then he wouldn't be weighing above 140.

I bet he could boil down to 135, but I am convinced he would suffer as a consequence. The guy is simply bigger than he used to be.

Nope. That's simply wrong. It is a temporary condition easily remedied. Why? Because it does NOT represent malnourishment, merely temporary deydration. These guys get roughly 30 hours to recover. That is plenty of time to normalize the body. How do I know I'm right? Manny at 130 the day before fights around 145. Manny who the day before is 145 fights at 147 or so. And both guys can go non-stop for twelve rounds without a problem.

So you are trying to tell me that a dehydrated Manny Pac would have just as much a chance of beating a more healthy looking, more muscular Manny at a day in weight of let's say 148 pounds? Hmm, I can't say I agree with that.

The dehydration is a factor and many fighters have complained about having to cut weight to fight and have spoken of the negative impact upon their own performances. Corrales, Morales and Toney spring readily to mind, but there are countless others that can be cited with a little consideration. In fact Manny himself looked quite drained and fought like it against Barrera the second time out. He was able to fight only in spurts and his last close fight was against Marquez. Since being free of draining he has shown greater rates of activity and looked like an energizer bunny. He slowed against Mosley, but has cited an injury.

Both pre drain and post drain Pac would come in at similar weights, but I have to differ with your conclusion that they are different beasts. Pac more recently at the lower weights had started to look a bit like a beatable fighter and the cutting quite obviously didn't help. The current one looks sharper, stronger and just as fast.

If you do know cutting too much weight is bad for a fighter, then why are you so vehemently against JMM fighting Pac at above 140? Why do you want it below 140? Since JMM and Pac wouldn't have to dehydrate that much at all wouldn't this be good for both of them? When they are especially much healthier on fight night and more than likely would be around 2 to 3 pounds of each other?

[marbleheadmaui]

So you are trying to tell me that a dehydrated Manny Pac would have just as much a chance of beating a more healthy looking, more muscular Manny at a day in weight of let's say 148 pounds? Hmm, I can't say I agree with that.

The dehydration is a factor and many fighters have complained about having to cut weight to fight and have spoken of the negative impact upon their own performances. Corrales, Morales and Toney spring readily to mind, but there are countless others that can be cited with a little consideration. In fact Manny himself looked quite drained and fought like it against Barrera the second time out. He was able to fight only in spurts and his last close fight was against Marquez. Since being free of draining he has shown greater rates of activity and looked like an energizer bunny. He slowed against Mosley, but has cited an injury.

Both pre drain and post drain Pac would come in at similar weights, but I have to differ with your conclusion that they are different beasts. Pac more recently at the lower weights had started to look a bit like a beatable fighter and the cutting quite obviously didn't help. The current one looks sharper, stronger and just as fast.

Here's what I am trying to tell you. I have spoken with enough boxing, MMA and wrestling coaches and competitors in the last 30 years that I am persuaded that proper dehydration followed by a proper rehydration done over a 24 or more hours leads to performance indistinguishable from not cutting at all. If it didn't? People would choose not to cut and would fight at higher weights. My view is entirely informed by dozens and dozens of conversations with those guys and them relaying their experiences. Fighters get into trouble because they don't train properly and try to do things all at once or because they simply are no longer a (pick the weight). They have literally outgrown the division.

My own personal experience with my own body is limited to two occasions, a very minor cut before a weightlifitng meet where I set a personal best (not meaningful in my view as it represented only 2% of my bodyweight). The other was a case of food poisoning on a Thursday of my senior year. I vomited so much my bodyweight went from 245-226 in a few hours and finally as low as 219 in the middle of Thursday night at the hospital. Then I began to be able to hold fluids and by drinking and with IV's by Saturday morning I was 240 and played a football game with no discernible dropoff in performance according to the coaches grades. And no I don't think that is typical or desireable, it's just what happened to me. I will note with that however that after the game? I completely fell apart, began vomiting again and ended up back with Mr. IV

The thing I think you are leaving out of manny in comparing him at 130 and now at 144 is the skill improvements. I think a useful right hand, better balance and better footwork explains a lot of the visual difference.

[marbleheadmaui]

Not different beasts I mean, sorry was typing in a hurry as I don't have much time.

No sweat. Always appreciate your thoughts!

[Gandalf]

Too much quoting going on here.

GB, I have answered this before. Too much cutting is not a good thing and that's why I am not suggesting anything as mad as cutting to 135 to make the fight. All I have suggested is a compromise whereby one goes up a bit and the other comes down.

In suggesting that you have give and take in order to accomodate two fighters who are used to different weigh in's.

I don't see how that can be considered in any way unfair or unreasonable. However, all you get are the 'Pac is god and Marquez must kneel if he wants the fight' arguments. That to me is grotesquely unfair.

[Gandalf]

Not different beasts I mean, sorry was typing in a hurry as I don't have much time.

No sweat. Always appreciate your thoughts!

Cheers, you too.

I'm nearly running late now, damn you GB, for forcing me to reply with another lengthy post! I'm out of here, later folks.

[marbleheadmaui]

Too much quoting going on here.

GB, I have answered this before. Too much cutting is not a good thing and that's why I am not suggesting anything as mad as cutting to 135 to make the fight. All I have suggested is a compromise whereby one goes up a bit and the other comes down.

In suggesting that you have give and take in order to accomodate two fighters who are used to different weigh in's.

I don't see how that can be considered in any way unfair or unreasonable. However, all you get are the 'Pac is god and Marquez must kneel if he wants the fight' arguments. That to me is grotesquely unfair.

My own view seems to have gotten lost here. Let me summarize.
1) Best fight would be for the 135 lineal belt and I think Manny could make it without hurting his performance. Given that, 140 won't impair Manny either and so it serves no incremental purpose I can see.
2) Under any weight limit we've mentioned, these two men will fight in the ring withing 3-4 pounds of one another anyway so a lot of this is much ado about nothing

3) 140 vs. 144 I think is immaterial and I'm equally unhappy with either

Now what were we arguing again?

[miron_lang]

My own view seems to have gotten lost here. Let me summarize.
1) Best fight would be for the 135 lineal belt and I think Manny could make it without hurting his performance. Given that, 140 won't impair Manny either and so it serves no incremental purpose I can see.
2) Under any weight limit we've mentioned, these two men will fight in the ring withing 3-4 pounds of one another anyway so a lot of this is much ado about nothing

3) 140 vs. 144 I think is immaterial and I'm equally unhappy with either

Now what were we arguing again?

He said fight should be at 140 and you object

[marbleheadmaui]

[QUOTE=miron_lang;972214]

He said fight should be at 140 and you object

Really? Geeze I was a real moron when I did that huh?