No Proof That He's Guilty?

[sanj16]

This is a comment that has been frequently been made here. Maybe I'm a bit dim, but it make no sense.
Sure he's never failed a test in the past, but has been pointed out, those tests are incomplete and there are ways of getting around them, hence the current demand for tests for tests that are more complete and are the best available.
The common analogy is with drink driving tests.
If I've never failed a breath test before and I get stopped for whatever reason. I tell the the cop I haven't been drinking. He says, he has a new machine that is much more accurate. I say I refuse to take the test because I've never failed before! It makes no sense.
Manny proving he's clean now doesn't really prove anything except that he doesn't have PEDs in his system at the time of the test.
It will not irradicate questions over his state going into his previous fights, knowing that there are ways around the testing.
If you told drivers where and when they will be breathalised, they will never be caught.
The whole point of these random blood tests is that they will insure that this fight is clean. Isn't that what everybody wants. Manny certainly will not clear his name in court no matter how much money he gets awarded.
From what I can see, the only way for him to save himself is to take the random blood tests, show himself as clean for this fight and then go on and perform as he did for all his previous wins.
If he doesn't take the test or does and comes in a totally different fighter then the questions will be answered.

[hakkai619]

Hmm... You dont get it too. I gotta ask you. When was the FIRST time manny has been suspected of PEDS and WHO was the one who first clammored about it? It was after the HATTON fight. Who was the first one bitchin? It was FLOYD MAYWEATHER SR. Now him accusing pac about steroids on that point dont you think is alot more related to being he was Hatton's trainer and his fighter lost so horribly? Maybe a little more miffed? Whats in your mind see is the very natural and human skill of finding patterns. These patterns you see might either be true or just in your mind. Its as what atheists base their disbelief in god lies. Since there are no scientific proofs that god exists hence no god. True but doesnt change the fact that people still believe in him. This also applies to peoples belief in aliens, crop circles, ghosts and so on. The pattern you talk about is this:

In your mind you believe that Pac is powerful and fast but in small weights = he goes up in weight hence he loses power and speed = your belief is shattered when the fact that pac has beat up larger men (sometimes more so when its your favorite fighter) = then you hypothesize that this is illogical and something must be wrong = your assumption is further strengthened by others belief that something IS wrong (From the statements of figures like Floyd mayweather snr and paulie malignaggi) = Pac denies RANDOM CLOSE TO THE FIGHT testing due to a number of personal reasons = Something must be wrong since he doesnt wanna take MAYWEATHERS test.

[sanj16]

Hmm... You dont get it too. I gotta ask you. When was the FIRST time manny has been suspected of PEDS and WHO was the one who first clammored about it? It was after the HATTON fight. Who was the first one bitchin? It was FLOYD MAYWEATHER SR. Now him accusing pac about steroids on that point dont you think is alot more related to being he was Hatton's trainer and his fighter lost so horribly? Maybe a little more miffed? Whats in your mind see is the very natural and human skill of finding patterns. These patterns you see might either be true or just in your mind. Its as what atheists base their disbelief in god lies. Since there are no scientific proofs that god exists hence no god. True but doesnt change the fact that people still believe in him. This also applies to peoples belief in aliens, crop circles, ghosts and so on. The pattern you talk about is this:

In your mind you believe that Pac is powerful and fast but in small weights = he goes up in weight hence he loses power and speed = your belief is shattered when the fact that pac has beat up larger men (sometimes more so when its your favorite fighter) = then you hypothesize that this is illogical and something must be wrong = your assumption is further strengthened by others belief that something IS wrong (From the statements of figures like Floyd mayweather snr and paulie malignaggi) = Pac denies RANDOM CLOSE TO THE FIGHT testing due to a number of personal reasons = Something must be wrong since he doesnt wanna take MAYWEATHERS test.

True the world is judged according to patterns and the "norm", but when something seems to go against the norm then it should be investigated. Manny is producing results against what is the norm and what has been seen in other fighters. It could of course just be his god-given gift/talent/he's a freek, but the other explanation is that he could be on PEDs.
I follow the belief that "common things are common". First you must rule out the obvious explanations then move onto the less obvious ones.
Manny has bucked the trend so closer attention must be paid to him (you don't pay closer attention to an individual who is not performing amazingly i.e. Clements, Marion Jones, Bonds, Ben Johnson etc)
Then when the individual refuses to comply with a simple test that clearly exclude the obvious causes of his performances then obviously any unbiased person would have to ask why? Then even more attention will be focused on this individual. Then when the asked about their refusal to take the tests, said individual presents various reason from various people around them each of which has been contradicted.
Ultimately the individual settles on "a number of personal reasons" and both they and their fans should just believe them because they say so and are likable.
Its all very well being innocent until being proven guilty, but when you refuse
to take a simple test that would prove that your clean, then do not complain when people start questioning it.
Ultimately following all his amazing achievements, if Usain Bolt refused to comply with a new blood test or testing system that was thought to be more sensitive/accurate with the defense that he had "a number of personal reasons", a lot of questions would be asked, with or without Mayweather Sr's opinion.
To use your analogy, if believer claims a miracle had occurred. But a non-believer says that there is an explainable cause of said miracle and that a simple test could prove it. The believer refuses to allow the test to be done and wants to know why this is not a miracle i.e. it is a miracle until proven otherwise. If it truly is a miracle then the test would add strength to their argument

[PRIDE OF BOSTON]

Fact is that having no proof is not proof.

I like Manny but he is not my favorite fighter. I can remain somewhat unbias...

If I had to pick a side I'd say that I think Manny IS taking PEDs... But it ultimatly doesn't matter what I think... Nor has he ever tested positive.

If people don't like the current testing then petition the NSAC... Other then that, he's innocent until proven guilty.

Period.

[generalbulldog]

Perception is everything. In this day and age of athletes juicing in MLB, NBA, NFL, the Olympics, people will automatically assume you are guilty and it is up to the accused to prove he/she is innocent. That's just how it is in this day and age. Is it fair? No. But I'm sorry to say this but all of Manny's accomplishments are a question mark until eternity. It doesn't matter anymore if he takes the tests and passes them and wins. People will say he just wasn't on them at that time.

The public has decided Manny is guilty and his records and achievements are tainted. Same thing with Margarito.

[PRIDE OF BOSTON]

Perception is everything. In this day and age of athletes juicing in MLB, NBA, NFL, the Olympics, people will automatically assume you are guilty and it is up to the accused to prove he/she is innocent. That's just how it is in this day and age. Is it fair? No. But I'm sorry to say this but all of Manny's accomplishments are a question mark until eternity. It doesn't matter anymore if he takes the tests and passes them and wins. People will say he just wasn't on them at that time.

The public has decided Manny is guilty and his records and achievements are tainted. Same thing with Margarito.

You are, indeed, correct and I agree. But as you stated above, it doesn't make it right. As I said, for all intents and purposes, I believe he has something to hide and in turn believe he's used PEDs but it doesn't make it so.

Until caught or admits to using PEDs he's not moving from my P4P list.

But that's me...

Manny has already hung himself.

[sanj16]

Fact is that having no proof is not proof.

I like Manny but he is not my favorite fighter. I can remain somewhat unbias...

If I had to pick a side I'd say that I think Manny IS taking PEDs... But it ultimatly doesn't matter what I think... Nor has he ever tested positive.

If people don't like the current testing then petition the NSAC... Other then that, he's innocent until proven guilty.

Period.

Agree with the above, but while you are not technically guilty, you cannot complain about boxing fans opinions, and boxing is all about opinions.
Its also makes it really difficult for his fans to defend him

[sanj16]

Fact is that having no proof is not proof.

I like Manny but he is not my favorite fighter. I can remain somewhat unbias...

If I had to pick a side I'd say that I think Manny IS taking PEDs... But it ultimatly doesn't matter what I think... Nor has he ever tested positive.

If people don't like the current testing then petition the NSAC... Other then that, he's innocent until proven guilty.

Period.

Agree with the above, but while you are not technically guilty, you cannot complain about boxing fans opinions, and boxing is all about opinions.
Its also makes it really difficult for his fans to defend him

[PRIDE OF BOSTON]

Fact is that having no proof is not proof.

I like Manny but he is not my favorite fighter. I can remain somewhat unbias...

If I had to pick a side I'd say that I think Manny IS taking PEDs... But it ultimatly doesn't matter what I think... Nor has he ever tested positive.

If people don't like the current testing then petition the NSAC... Other then that, he's innocent until proven guilty.

Period.

Agree with the above, but while you are not technically guilty, you cannot complain about boxing fans opinions, and boxing is all about opinions.
Its also makes it really difficult for his fans to defend him

Agreed... No, I get what you're saying. ...and as fickle the fans are in boxing he's picked the wrong sport to dick around with drug tests. In the major leagues you're cheating by hitting balls 100 ft longer then your opponant. In boxing you'll kill someone.

[GAME]

Fact is that having no proof is not proof.

I like Manny but he is not my favorite fighter. I can remain somewhat unbias...

If I had to pick a side I'd say that I think Manny IS taking PEDs... But it ultimatly doesn't matter what I think... Nor has he ever tested positive.

If people don't like the current testing then petition the NSAC... Other then that, he's innocent until proven guilty.

Period.

Ojay Simpson was proven innocent but everyone knows he was guilty.

My point is that people will think what they want and I think teh damage has been done to Pacs rep now because of how he has handled this. Even if he passes a drugs test now people will still look back and think he was taking steroids in his recent fights.

[generalbulldog]

Like I've said before even if Manny decided to take the random blood tests now and passes them, there is a perception out there.

Yep perception is everything. OJ Simpson is a good example. Michael Jackson is another one. Those guys have been exonerated in the courts but many people still say they are guilty no matter what. Certain things you shouldn't mess around with and try to stamp out the fires before it gets too big. Because once the fire is too big it will never be put out.

Boxing already is a dangerous sport, cheating in this sport could result in someone's death. This isn't like baseball, basketball, football. This sport has a few deaths every year.

It was a disaster move for Manny his team should have decided what's best for him instead of this standoff, that's why having yes men and freeloader/hanger ons are never good.

[hakkai619]

Fact is that having no proof is not proof.

I like Manny but he is not my favorite fighter. I can remain somewhat unbias...

If I had to pick a side I'd say that I think Manny IS taking PEDs... But it ultimatly doesn't matter what I think... Nor has he ever tested positive.

If people don't like the current testing then petition the NSAC... Other then that, he's innocent until proven guilty.

Period.

Ojay Simpson was proven innocent but everyone knows he was guilty.

My point is that people will think what they want and I think teh damage has been done to Pacs rep now because of how he has handled this. Even if he passes a drugs test now people will still look back and think he was taking steroids in his recent fights.

LOL OJ was different dude. There were actually FACTS that back up him being guilty. Besides he was NOT proven innocent. HE LOST THE TRIAL.

[hakkai619]

Hmm... You dont get it too. I gotta ask you. When was the FIRST time manny has been suspected of PEDS and WHO was the one who first clammored about it? It was after the HATTON fight. Who was the first one bitchin? It was FLOYD MAYWEATHER SR. Now him accusing pac about steroids on that point dont you think is alot more related to being he was Hatton's trainer and his fighter lost so horribly? Maybe a little more miffed? Whats in your mind see is the very natural and human skill of finding patterns. These patterns you see might either be true or just in your mind. Its as what atheists base their disbelief in god lies. Since there are no scientific proofs that god exists hence no god. True but doesnt change the fact that people still believe in him. This also applies to peoples belief in aliens, crop circles, ghosts and so on. The pattern you talk about is this:

In your mind you believe that Pac is powerful and fast but in small weights = he goes up in weight hence he loses power and speed = your belief is shattered when the fact that pac has beat up larger men (sometimes more so when its your favorite fighter) = then you hypothesize that this is illogical and something must be wrong = your assumption is further strengthened by others belief that something IS wrong (From the statements of figures like Floyd mayweather snr and paulie malignaggi) = Pac denies RANDOM CLOSE TO THE FIGHT testing due to a number of personal reasons = Something must be wrong since he doesnt wanna take MAYWEATHERS test.

True the world is judged according to patterns and the "norm", but when something seems to go against the norm then it should be investigated. Manny is producing results against what is the norm and what has been seen in other fighters. It could of course just be his god-given gift/talent/he's a freek, but the other explanation is that he could be on PEDs.
I follow the belief that "common things are common". First you must rule out the obvious explanations then move onto the less obvious ones.
Manny has bucked the trend so closer attention must be paid to him (you don't pay closer attention to an individual who is not performing amazingly i.e. Clements, Marion Jones, Bonds, Ben Johnson etc)
Then when the individual refuses to comply with a simple test that clearly exclude the obvious causes of his performances then obviously any unbiased person would have to ask why? Then even more attention will be focused on this individual. Then when the asked about their refusal to take the tests, said individual presents various reason from various people around them each of which has been contradicted.
Ultimately the individual settles on "a number of personal reasons" and both they and their fans should just believe them because they say so and are likable.
Its all very well being innocent until being proven guilty, but when you refuse
to take a simple test that would prove that your clean, then do not complain when people start questioning it.
Ultimately following all his amazing achievements, if Usain Bolt refused to comply with a new blood test or testing system that was thought to be more sensitive/accurate with the defense that he had "a number of personal reasons", a lot of questions would be asked, with or without Mayweather Sr's opinion.
To use your analogy, if believer claims a miracle had occurred. But a non-believer says that there is an explainable cause of said miracle and that a simple test could prove it. The believer refuses to allow the test to be done and wants to know why this is not a miracle i.e. it is a miracle until proven otherwise. If it truly is a miracle then the test would add strength to their argument

Lemme ask you this though. In terms of nationality and record. Has the philippines ever produced sports cheats like Bonds, Clemens, etc before? Wasnt pacquiao the same in the smaller weight divisions as he is today? Is it really that weird that someone stays the same in terms of power in speed in higher weight divisions? I mean it wasnt like he gained monstrous proportions of muscle, speed and stamina. The only thing that was not in the norm about pac was that he stayed the same. The problem is that people tend to generalize things. This results in paranoia, racism, stereotyping and many more negative aspects about human society. Why do you think we have wars and why do you think people have been cautious whenever there are muslims around? Since 9/11 paranoia about muslims has set in. Its the same principle as now. The trend of since sportsmen of the past like Clemens, Bonds and etc have cheated and taken steroids you instantly stereotype that everyone who does outrageous accomplishments MUST be cheating. I do agree that him not agreeing to random tests raises doubts BUT it doesnt instantly mean hes guilty. If I were you, you should put yourself in manny's place. What if someone was DEMANDING you to do things that were this unprecedented. As a fellow filipino i know the feeling of someone telling me what to do will piss me off no matter how calm a person like pacquiao is. ESPECIALLY SO if he is a foreigner who has no idea how our culture runs/operates. People should stop accusing pac and read up on the facts first.

1. Pac has agreed to EVERYTHING ELSE albeit to USADA doing the testing. He agrees to testing but not with USADA.
2. PEDS do not magically go away. Pac has only wanted 3-5 days from the fight to be test free cause he wants to focus on those days.
3. Even if he WAS on PEDs it will not go away immediately after a fight thats why he has suggested to testing immediately after the fight in the locker room.
4. In regards to blood testing yes it does weaken you and tire you out. I can testify that first hand. (Tested for my blood type) Yes it tires you out maybe not physically but mentally. All in the head. Seeing your blood will give you a tiring feeling i know i have.
5. Team Pac has tried alot of other options for testing and offered them to mayweather but they refused. In the sense he agrees to random testing but not in the sense of mayweather wants it.
6. This fight WILL happen. Theres too much money involved and both of them need this fight.

[eagle]

Hmm... You dont get it too. I gotta ask you. When was the FIRST time manny has been suspected of PEDS and WHO was the one who first clammored about it? It was after the HATTON fight. Who was the first one bitchin? It was FLOYD MAYWEATHER SR. Now him accusing pac about steroids on that point dont you think is alot more related to being he was Hatton's trainer and his fighter lost so horribly? Maybe a little more miffed? Whats in your mind see is the very natural and human skill of finding patterns. These patterns you see might either be true or just in your mind. Its as what atheists base their disbelief in god lies. Since there are no scientific proofs that god exists hence no god. True but doesnt change the fact that people still believe in him. This also applies to peoples belief in aliens, crop circles, ghosts and so on. The pattern you talk about is this:

In your mind you believe that Pac is powerful and fast but in small weights = he goes up in weight hence he loses power and speed = your belief is shattered when the fact that pac has beat up larger men (sometimes more so when its your favorite fighter) = then you hypothesize that this is illogical and something must be wrong = your assumption is further strengthened by others belief that something IS wrong (From the statements of figures like Floyd mayweather snr and paulie malignaggi) = Pac denies RANDOM CLOSE TO THE FIGHT testing due to a number of personal reasons = Something must be wrong since he doesnt wanna take MAYWEATHERS test.

True the world is judged according to patterns and the "norm", but when something seems to go against the norm then it should be investigated. Manny is producing results against what is the norm and what has been seen in other fighters. It could of course just be his god-given gift/talent/he's a freek, but the other explanation is that he could be on PEDs.
I follow the belief that "common things are common". First you must rule out the obvious explanations then move onto the less obvious ones.
Manny has bucked the trend so closer attention must be paid to him (you don't pay closer attention to an individual who is not performing amazingly i.e. Clements, Marion Jones, Bonds, Ben Johnson etc)
Then when the individual refuses to comply with a simple test that clearly exclude the obvious causes of his performances then obviously any unbiased person would have to ask why? Then even more attention will be focused on this individual. Then when the asked about their refusal to take the tests, said individual presents various reason from various people around them each of which has been contradicted.
Ultimately the individual settles on "a number of personal reasons" and both they and their fans should just believe them because they say so and are likable.
Its all very well being innocent until being proven guilty, but when you refuse
to take a simple test that would prove that your clean, then do not complain when people start questioning it.
Ultimately following all his amazing achievements, if Usain Bolt refused to comply with a new blood test or testing system that was thought to be more sensitive/accurate with the defense that he had "a number of personal reasons", a lot of questions would be asked, with or without Mayweather Sr's opinion.
To use your analogy, if believer claims a miracle had occurred. But a non-believer says that there is an explainable cause of said miracle and that a simple test could prove it. The believer refuses to allow the test to be done and wants to know why this is not a miracle i.e. it is a miracle until proven otherwise. If it truly is a miracle then the test would add strength to their argument

Lemme ask you this though. In terms of nationality and record. Has the philippines ever produced sports cheats like Bonds, Clemens, etc before? Wasnt pacquiao the same in the smaller weight divisions as he is today? Is it really that weird that someone stays the same in terms of power in speed in higher weight divisions? I mean it wasnt like he gained monstrous proportions of muscle, speed and stamina. The only thing that was not in the norm about pac was that he stayed the same. The problem is that people tend to generalize things. This results in paranoia, racism, stereotyping and many more negative aspects about human society. Why do you think we have wars and why do you think people have been cautious whenever there are muslims around? Since 9/11 paranoia about muslims has set in. Its the same principle as now. The trend of since sportsmen of the past like Clemens, Bonds and etc have cheated and taken steroids you instantly stereotype that everyone who does outrageous accomplishments MUST be cheating. I do agree that him not agreeing to random tests raises doubts BUT it doesnt instantly mean hes guilty. If I were you, you should put yourself in manny's place. What if someone was DEMANDING you to do things that were this unprecedented. As a fellow filipino i know the feeling of someone telling me what to do will piss me off no matter how calm a person like pacquiao is. ESPECIALLY SO if he is a foreigner who has no idea how our culture runs/operates. People should stop accusing pac and read up on the facts first.

1. Pac has agreed to EVERYTHING ELSE albeit to USADA doing the testing. He agrees to testing but not with USADA.
2. PEDS do not magically go away. Pac has only wanted 3-5 days from the fight to be test free cause he wants to focus on those days.
3. Even if he WAS on PEDs it will not go away immediately after a fight thats why he has suggested to testing immediately after the fight in the locker room.
4. In regards to blood testing yes it does weaken you and tire you out. I can testify that first hand. (Tested for my blood type) Yes it tires you out maybe not physically but mentally. All in the head. Seeing your blood will give you a tiring feeling i know i have.
5. Team Pac has tried alot of other options for testing and offered them to mayweather but they refused. In the sense he agrees to random testing but not in the sense of mayweather wants it.
6. This fight WILL happen. Theres too much money involved and both of them need this fight.

You my friend are an idiot. You are pretty much saying the reason people are questioning Pac is because they are racist. our other argument is that the Phillipines havent had other famous sports people on PEDs and the USA have so it is more likely for a US based sportsperson to be on PEDs. What a load of crap, for atarters you could probably name all the Phillipines world class sports people on one hand whereas the USA has had thousands therefore its no surprise the USA has had more drug cheats.

The lets go through your points.

1. Pac has not agreed to everything, he does not want any sort of randm test and none within 48 hours so point 1 is false.

2. Certain PEDs can be cycled so they are out of your system in a small amount of time so point 2 is false.

3. See point 2.

4. Point 4 is the most ridiculous thing i have heard. Pac is a grown tough guy not a baby girl. 4mls of blood does not tire you out. One small cut or blood nose would leak out maybe 10 times that amount. Does this mean Pac is weakened substantially anytime he is cut? It also surprises me how many Pacfans are affected so greatly by blood tests.... Must be all a bunch of wimps or are they maybe just lying to back Pac up. Surely not. I regularly give a pint of blood as a donor and feel fine within a few hours. Point 4 is false.

5. Pac and his team have not agreed to proper random drug testing. Tellin testers when they can and cant test is not RANDOM. point 5 is false.

6. Yes the fight will probably happen and the only reason it isnt is because Pac is not agreeing to take the tests.

[Kirkland Laing]

Lemme ask you this though. In terms of nationality and record. Has the philippines ever produced sports cheats like Bonds, Clemens, etc before? Wasnt pacquiao the same in the smaller weight divisions as he is today? Is it really that weird that someone stays the same in terms of power in speed in higher weight divisions? I mean it wasnt like he gained monstrous proportions of muscle, speed and stamina. The only thing that was not in the norm about pac was that he stayed the same. The problem is that people tend to generalize things. This results in paranoia, racism, stereotyping and many more negative aspects about human society. Why do you think we have wars and why do you think people have been cautious whenever there are muslims around? Since 9/11 paranoia about muslims has set in. Its the same principle as now. The trend of since sportsmen of the past like Clemens, Bonds and etc have cheated and taken steroids you instantly stereotype that everyone who does outrageous accomplishments MUST be cheating. I do agree that him not agreeing to random tests raises doubts BUT it doesnt instantly mean hes guilty. If I were you, you should put yourself in manny's place. What if someone was DEMANDING you to do things that were this unprecedented. As a fellow filipino i know the feeling of someone telling me what to do will piss me off no matter how calm a person like pacquiao is. ESPECIALLY SO if he is a foreigner who has no idea how our culture runs/operates. People should stop accusing pac and read up on the facts first.

If an American athlete refused USADA testing, said he'd only take sceduled testing, called the USADA corrupt and said he didn't trust them to carry out any tests they'd be destroyed overnight by the American media. If they refused to take tests for as long as Manny already has their career would be over.