Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.

[Beanz]

I don't think that I am the one constantly calling Robinson and Benjamin fascists but I can see why people would be justified in calling them that. They are ultra nationalists. Tommy especially. You can hardly claim someone who joined the BNP and then started the EDL and named himself after a football hooligan, is a moderate in any way, shape or form. He doesn't just have previous it is an extremist position that dominates his life. It seems you will never accept this whatever he does because he represents something else to you, and that is because you have relied on only heavily distorted propaganda to come to that conclusion. I understand it is the same ignorance that made Ben Shapiro call Andrew Neil a lefty this week

You can see how Tommy really operates here in the video below. Remember this is some English twat in Ireland threatening an Irish citizen with violence so you can maybe see how daft the idea of Tommy giving a shit about free speech is or the rule of law. And no there is not one shred of Patriotism in Tommy, quite the opposite he is funded by American and Zionist interests to the tune of many thousands of pounds a week. It is very easy to find these links form Rebel Media, The Middle East Foundation and Australian far right groups. Reps from all these groups can be seen with him everywhere as he tours the UK with his rent a mob.

http://youtu.be/UxqFZI9dDbo?t=1571

Well if they aren't fascists then why would Antifa harass them? Is Antifa expanding like the LGBTQIAA+ movement? What is the difference between "ultra nationalist" and "fascist"? I'm very curious as to what an "ultra nationalist" is.

Who exactly is claiming these things of Tommy as he is at present? Everyone who has seen ANY interview with him at all knows his past. His past is always brought up or hinted at. Has he not changed at all?

What does Ben Shapiro have to do with this? He lost a debate so what he had the balls to have a debate. Carl Benjamin has done an entire tour of debates even debating the very man who eventually threw a milkshake on him because I guess he didn't have the words to counter Mr. Benjamin so I guess physical attack will have to do.

I'd rather we not talk past each other so again, I seek to understand how you obtained your views and so I asked questions hoping you'd take me down the path and show me how you came to believe how you believe which would of course lead to perhaps my better understanding of your thought process which in turn would mean less bickering and perhaps some commiseration on some topics....however I seem to have been met with you presuming to tell me how I came to hold my views. That is curious....would you care to expound on specifically what made my synapses fire as they have?

Because you are at least 10-15 years younger than me. You don't live in the UK. I am pretty sure until the last couple of years you would not have even heard of anti-fascists (it would explain how you can with a straight face post Clash videos holding the views you do). You speak about being anti-fascist as though it is repulsive whereas I can probably count more than a hundred friends and colleagues who would use that term to describe themselves including family in their 70's and 80's. You are entitled to believe what you want but if it is not based on experience and just the very one sided views of those supporting Benjamin and Robinson, you will never find a balanced opinion.

I have never once seen such unashamed and unquestioning dumb loyalty and near fan/idol worship than that found on the Benjamin,Robinson, Peterson etc media hubs. Never in the last 30 years has anything but cultdom approached the sheer religiosity of it all. it is a strange fervor in which everyone just pats each other on the back and says how wonderful the objects of their adoration are.

Shapiro did not lose a debate he terminated an interview because he just assumed stuff. Like your dismissal of the BBC. The BBC is so right wing that they have let the most inept and cruel Tory party in history go unchallenged for years. THey have repeatedly had Farrage on, somebody who could not garner enough votes to become an MP.

UKIP who you think represent the people are not exonerated because their corrupt talisman Farrage has left, they are just as guilty as before. Whether it is ties with Cambridge Analytica, Bannon, the aristocrat and money launderer George Cotterell, the deaths of Kenyan election officials while then UKIPS and CA's Alexandra Phillips was working there.

These are not conspiracies or the past these are the real dark forces shaping Britains future. Gandalf will latch on to the simplistic notion that the EU are the corrupt ones and that UKIP are the squeaky clean saviours of a sovereign state but everything points to the opposite being the truth. Look at yourself urging people to create violence on the streets to push what you think is the natural conclusion of a referendum because of your own political beliefs. I don't remember you and Gandalf having a dog in the fight.

Personally I have never been under any illusions about the corrupt nature of most politics, the EU included..but...and it is a big but. I will not let my childrens and grandchildrens future be jeopardized and ruined because some Neanderthal Alpha males want to put the countries dick in a blender to signal their own supposed virility. I have nver asked for the referendum result to be overturned or pretended that all Brexit voters were fascists or far right Neo-Nazis. Others have claimed this but I would ask them to show me where i said such a thing.

That does not mean a WTO deal which would sink our economy and rip up any ties or progress with our close neighbours, relatives, friends and colleagues was what the majority of those voting out in the advisory referendum wanted either.

We are in limbo and it suits our competitors down to the ground.

Farrage accepted those bungs because he openly admitted wanting to move and settle in America. Dress that up as patriotism if you like but you know it is nothing of the sort.

Tommy wants the same thing.

I am not telling you how you came to your views. That is abundantly clear. It is a bit like Gandalf claiming to be left wing or a socialist etc while dissing Marx, Corbyn etc and anything on the left. You too have brought up people claiming they are lefties in America speaking now for the right and everyone of them are just prepared stooges all with a history of doing nothing but diss the left.

It is like cognative dissonance. You have already made up your mind and then look for stuff to confirm it and anything that contradicts that view gets binned.

[El Kabong]

Because you are at least 10-15 years younger than me. You don't live in the UK. I am pretty sure until the last couple of years you would not have even heard of anti-fascists (it would explain how you can with a straight face post Clash videos holding the views you do). You speak about being anti-fascist as though it is repulsive whereas I can probably count more than a hundred friends and colleagues who would use that term to describe themselves including family in their 70's and 80's. You are entitled to believe what you want but if it is not based on experience and just the very one sided views of those supporting Benjamin and Robinson, you will never find a balanced opinion.

I have never once seen such unashamed and unquestioning dumb loyalty and near fan/idol worship than that found on the Benjamin,Robinson, Peterson etc media hubs. Never in the last 30 years has anything but cultdom approached the sheer religiosity of it all. it is a strange fervor in which everyone just pats each other on the back and says how wonderful the objects of their adoration are.

Shapiro did not lose a debate he terminated an interview because he just assumed stuff. Like your dismissal of the BBC. The BBC is so right wing that they have let the most inept and cruel Tory party in history go unchallenged for years. THey have repeatedly had Farrage on, somebody who could not garner enough votes to become an MP.

UKIP who you think represent the people are not exonerated because their corrupt talisman Farrage has left, they are just as guilty as before. Whether it is ties with Cambridge Analytica, Bannon, the aristocrat and money launderer George Cotterell, the deaths of Kenyan election officials while then UKIPS and CA's Alexandra Phillips was working there.

These are not conspiracies or the past these are the real dark forces shaping Britains future. Gandalf will latch on to the simplistic notion that the EU are the corrupt ones and that UKIP are the squeaky clean saviours of a sovereign state but everything points to the opposite being the truth. Look at yourself urging people to create violence on the streets to push what you think is the natural conclusion of a referendum because of your own political beliefs. I don't remember you and Gandalf having a dog in the fight.

Personally I have never been under any illusions about the corrupt nature of most politics, the EU included..but...and it is a big but. I will not let my childrens and grandchildrens future be jeopardized and ruined because some Neanderthal Alpha males want to put the countries dick in a blender to signal their own supposed virility. I have nver asked for the referendum result to be overturned or pretended that all Brexit voters were fascists or far right Neo-Nazis. Others have claimed this but I would ask them to show me where i said such a thing.

That does not mean a WTO deal which would sink our economy and rip up any ties or progress with our close neighbours, relatives, friends and colleagues was what the majority of those voting out in the advisory referendum wanted either.

We are in limbo and it suits our competitors down to the ground.

Farrage accepted those bungs because he openly admitted wanting to move and settle in America. Dress that up as patriotism if you like but you know it is nothing of the sort.

Tommy wants the same thing.

I am not telling you how you came to your views. That is abundantly clear. It is a bit like Gandalf claiming to be left wing or a socialist etc while dissing Marx, Corbyn etc and anything on the left. You too have brought up people claiming they are lefties in America speaking now for the right and everyone of them are just prepared stooges all with a history of doing nothing but diss the left.

It is like cognative dissonance. You have already made up your mind and then look for stuff to confirm it and anything that contradicts that view gets binned.

10-15 years? OK I don't know how that's an issue I'm an adult I was an adult over a decade ago as well. No I don't live there but due to the internet I'm quite able to follow what happens there...various sources too mind. Well I guess if you're "pretty sure" then you must feel good assuming things about me, I do hate to disappoint you, but I don't mix my politics and art (including music) I enjoy, do you? Why would I shut myself off from good art due to politics? Do you?

Have you not? I lived through 8 years of Obama, I've seen plenty and everyone you mentioned has been grilled a hell of a lot harder than Obama ever was. Carl Benjamin on the BBC the other day faced a tougher line of questioning than Obama ever has.

Fine Shapiro terminated an interview, I don't care it's erroneous to the current discussion. If you believe The BBC is right wing then I don't know what to tell you other than "Can you see the edge from where you're standing?"

OK so UKIP and Brexit Party don't represent the people, the people who voted for Brexit...so who does represent those people the Tories? Labour? Change UK?

Why bring up Gandalf? I thought it was you and me that were having a nice discussion where I'm politely asking you questions in order to better understand your position and you're (and maybe this is my not being able to discern tone here) taking shots at me for asking those questions . OK so you're not ok with my having an opinion on British politics....alright then fine I'll go back to my own thread and leave you to sort everything out....


One last thing though....

"I am not telling you how you came to your views. That is abundantly clear"

vs

"It seems you will never accept this whatever he does because he represents something else to you, and that is because you have relied on only heavily distorted propaganda to come to that conclusion. I understand it is the same ignorance that made Ben Shapiro call Andrew Neil a lefty this week "


Cognitive Dissonance.....what's that?

[Gandalf]

@Fenster I am just curious as to why my name has been brought up so many times by one poster over the past 2 pages when I haven't even been posting? Do you think this is rational behavior? I find it very weird.

[Fenster]

@Fenster I am just curious as to why my name has been brought up so many times by one poster over the past 2 pages when I haven't even been posting? Do you think this is rational behavior? I find it very weird.

I have no idea, as i've not read anything for 24 hours, however, i'm pretty certain my investigation will find it's because Beanz loves you. I'll be back.

[Gandalf]

@Fenster I am just curious as to why my name has been brought up so many times by one poster over the past 2 pages when I haven't even been posting? Do you think this is rational behavior? I find it very weird.

I have no idea, as i've not read anything for 24 hours, however, i'm pretty certain my investigation will find it's because Beanz loves you. I'll be back.

I am not looking for protection, but just pointing out that he does seem a little infatuated. I posted a few things and deleted them as you would have noticed as I don't want to encourage him too much knowing his mania is in full bloom.

Is violence against individuals really something we should be advocating? My entire stance on this is that we don't egg Jeremy and we don't milkshake others. Normalizing violence is not so good.

[Beanz]

@Fenster I am just curious as to why my name has been brought up so many times by one poster over the past 2 pages when I haven't even been posting? Do you think this is rational behavior? I find it very weird.

I have no idea, as i've not read anything for 24 hours, however, i'm pretty certain my investigation will find it's because Beanz loves you. I'll be back.

I am not looking for protection, but just pointing out that he does seem a little infatuated. I posted a few things and deleted them as you would have noticed as I don't want to encourage him too much knowing his mania is in full bloom.

Is violence against individuals really something we should be advocating? My entire stance on this is that we don't egg Jeremy and we don't milkshake others. Normalizing violence is not so good.

'His mania is in full bloom'?

There is nothing manic in my posts and I have never been manic in any form. In fact the only person ever suggesting they were bi-polar or manic depressive and taking drugs to deal with it is you. And yet here you are with the 'he is mad, he is addicted, he is a liar' narrative.

Why are you asking for me to banned again? It's a bit of an odd stance from someone pretending to belive in free speech.

[Gandalf]

@Fenster I am just curious as to why my name has been brought up so many times by one poster over the past 2 pages when I haven't even been posting? Do you think this is rational behavior? I find it very weird.

I have no idea, as i've not read anything for 24 hours, however, i'm pretty certain my investigation will find it's because Beanz loves you. I'll be back.

I am not looking for protection, but just pointing out that he does seem a little infatuated. I posted a few things and deleted them as you would have noticed as I don't want to encourage him too much knowing his mania is in full bloom.

Is violence against individuals really something we should be advocating? My entire stance on this is that we don't egg Jeremy and we don't milkshake others. Normalizing violence is not so good.

'His mania is in full bloom'?

There is nothing manic in my posts and I have never been manic in any form. In fact the only person ever suggesting they were bi-polar or manic depressive and taking drugs to deal with it is you. And yet here you are with the 'he is mad, he is addicted, he is a liar' narrative.

Why are you asking for me to banned again? It's a bit of an odd stance from someone pretending to belive in free speech.

It is a beautiful turn of phrase, isn't it? The post above this one certainly looks, shall we say, 'flamboyant' and 'eccentric'.

Yes, unlike you I will admit to and be open about my issues. I self diagnosed myself having gone through my Van Gogh period and decided that I had to be at the very least mildly eccentric. Little did I know that by changing my lifestyle and tidying my room a little, it would all get a little bit better. Thus I am now nothing more than an occasional insomniac and occasionally, very occasionally I will drink too much, and have the hangover anxiety and remember why I do not do that and thus not do it for another 4 months or what have you. See, open and honest. Nobody had to goad it out of me.

Am I asking for you to be banned again? You keep making things up. I also added the following "I am not looking for protection, but just pointing out that he does seem a little infatuated" which would indicate that banning is not on the agenda. Though it might help you if you see Farage and not Gandalf. Or if you see Benjamin and not Gandalf. Or if you see Al and not Gandalf. Or if you see Lyle and not Gandalf. Or if you see Walrus and not Gandalf. Though undeniably the final two are linked a little like Romeo and Juliet. The Dire Straits version rather than the radical lesbian known as William Shakespeare. Not my words, but the words of a very wild media which can always be trusted.

You see where I am going with this?

[Beanz]

[/QUOTE] 10-15 years? OK I don't know how that's an issue I'm an adult I was an adult over a decade ago as well. No I don't live there but due to the internet I'm quite able to follow what happens there...various sources too mind. Well I guess if you're "pretty sure" then you must feel good assuming things about me, I do hate to disappoint you, but I don't mix my politics and art (including music) I enjoy, do you? Why would I shut myself off from good art due to politics? Do you?

Have you not? I lived through 8 years of Obama, I've seen plenty and everyone you mentioned has been grilled a hell of a lot harder than Obama ever was. Carl Benjamin on the BBC the other day faced a tougher line of questioning than Obama ever has.

Fine Shapiro terminated an interview, I don't care it's erroneous to the current discussion. If you believe The BBC is right wing then I don't know what to tell you other than "Can you see the edge from where you're standing?"

OK so UKIP and Brexit Party don't represent the people, the people who voted for Brexit...so who does represent those people the Tories? Labour? Change UK?

Why bring up Gandalf? I thought it was you and me that were having a nice discussion where I'm politely asking you questions in order to better understand your position and you're (and maybe this is my not being able to discern tone here) taking shots at me for asking those questions . OK so you're not ok with my having an opinion on British politics....alright then fine I'll go back to my own thread and leave you to sort everything out....


One last thing though....

"I am not telling you how you came to your views. That is abundantly clear"

vs

"It seems you will never accept this whatever he does because he represents something else to you, and that is because you have relied on only heavily distorted propaganda to come to that conclusion. I understand it is the same ignorance that made Ben Shapiro call Andrew Neil a lefty this week "


Cognitive Dissonance.....what's that?[/QUOTE]


REPLY

It is only because you constantly quote from the same sources that I came to such a conclusion. You of course would think that the internet is a good substitute for boots on the ground because that is part of your generations way of looking at the world. When my stepsons (who is 30) friends made rape jokes in the past it became quite clear that generations view things differently. It doesn't mean that you are incapable of reaching more rational and reasonable conclusions than somebody of my age but it does explain the difference.

And yes of course i mix my politics and art. I have staked almost everything on it, as have virtually all of my closest friends. They are at times inseparable. There is a whole wall of local venue covered in massive blown up versions of my work and in the very centre of it all is an anti-fascist flag. Even if i am skint or knackered I will always make time for an anti-racist gig or to support a charity supporting refugees or abused kids etc. I have got on a night bus to work in London on many occasion to support the fight against censorship and the killing of what so many now just call 'the elite media class' of journalists all over the world. I am the living embodiment of an SJW crusty hippy punk photo-journalist limp and all, that has had the privilege of spending some of my working life talking to the people who worked with Strummer and the people who helped start Rock against Racism and the Anti-Nazi league. I make no apologies for it. In the end it has kept me alive and helped support two generations.

Benjamin is not Obama and while Obama may have deserved a personal droning, Benjamin certainly deserves at least a bucket of milkshake for many reasons, selling out an electorate to a corrupt party being one of many. The amount of racist shite Obama caught by people prefacing it with provisos that is was not because they were racist that they hated the muslim non american with the fake birth certificate made it quite clear, even from here across the pond, that he was not given the easy ride you are suggesting. I never defended the war monger but did not feel the need to pretend that Trump is not corrupt, inept and as neck deep in corruption as the Clintons and all the others.

You are mistaking my not buying into the right wing propaganda as an indication that I must buy into the other end. That is not the case. Nuance, and complexity are what life is about and you will find no more nuance in the Morning Star than you will in the Daily Mail.

I never said that UKIP does not represent the people that voted for Brexit. Of course they do but no more than the tories , the labour party etc do. That is kind of the point. People across the spectrum voted quite equally to stay and leave, It literally split the nation as evidenced in the close result. How we leave and what we would do if we did was never even discussed.

And yes of course you can have an opinion on British politics. I have tried for months to leave the Trump thread alone but your opinion is as valid as anyone else.

You have to remember though that it is American interests that are being used to shape British and European politics in an effort to make everyone hyper nationlist and isolationist. There is a right wing corporate elite push back happening and it is there because it hates the idea of cooperation and commons and community.

Like yourself it views even quite moderate fair capitalist ideas as communism and a threat. What Yanis proposes would represent real change and people are terrified of that. Ironically that is what those voting Brexit really have in common with many Blairite (or LIB DEM traitorous) remainers. THey want either a regression to the past or 'The same as it ever was'.

You cannot get any more establishment than Farrge the toffs and multinational corporations that installed him. He is no alternative just as UKIP the party he formed is not. Benjamin represents a desire to regress as does Tommy because change is just too challenging to them personally.

Its a lot to digest, and you may find it too unpalatetable, but I have nothing to gain by telling lies.

For me the forum, like life, is kind of wasted if all we all think we can't learn anything from others.

I have found it most instructive, if baffling at times, to be surrounded by people quite unlike most of my mates and family etc.


I brought up Gandalf because he has been one of the most vocal on these things and in this thread but he is speaking from a place between us both.


Most people don't even want to speak about it so don't take me or his word for it and certainly look further away from the narrow prism of Tommy, Carl and that whole 'scene'.

It really is not very representative.

[El Kabong]

10-15 years? OK I don't know how that's an issue I'm an adult I was an adult over a decade ago as well. No I don't live there but due to the internet I'm quite able to follow what happens there...various sources too mind. Well I guess if you're "pretty sure" then you must feel good assuming things about me, I do hate to disappoint you, but I don't mix my politics and art (including music) I enjoy, do you? Why would I shut myself off from good art due to politics? Do you?

Have you not? I lived through 8 years of Obama, I've seen plenty and everyone you mentioned has been grilled a hell of a lot harder than Obama ever was. Carl Benjamin on the BBC the other day faced a tougher line of questioning than Obama ever has.

Fine Shapiro terminated an interview, I don't care it's erroneous to the current discussion. If you believe The BBC is right wing then I don't know what to tell you other than "Can you see the edge from where you're standing?"

OK so UKIP and Brexit Party don't represent the people, the people who voted for Brexit...so who does represent those people the Tories? Labour? Change UK?

Why bring up Gandalf? I thought it was you and me that were having a nice discussion where I'm politely asking you questions in order to better understand your position and you're (and maybe this is my not being able to discern tone here) taking shots at me for asking those questions . OK so you're not ok with my having an opinion on British politics....alright then fine I'll go back to my own thread and leave you to sort everything out....


One last thing though....

"I am not telling you how you came to your views. That is abundantly clear"

vs

"It seems you will never accept this whatever he does because he represents something else to you, and that is because you have relied on only heavily distorted propaganda to come to that conclusion. I understand it is the same ignorance that made Ben Shapiro call Andrew Neil a lefty this week "


Cognitive Dissonance.....what's that?[/QUOTE]


REPLY

It is only because you constantly quote from the same sources that I came to such a conclusion. You of course would think that the internet is a good substitute for boots on the ground because that is part of your generations way of looking at the world. When my stepsons (who is 30) friends made rape jokes in the past it became quite clear that generations view things differently. It doesn't mean that you are incapable of reaching more rational and reasonable conclusions than somebody of my age but it does explain the difference.

And yes of course i mix my politics and art. I have staked almost everything on it, as have virtually all of my closest friends. They are at times inseparable. There is a whole wall of local venue covered in massive blown up versions of my work and in the very centre of it all is an anti-fascist flag. Even if i am skint or knackered I will always make time for an anti-racist gig or to support a charity supporting refugees or abused kids etc. I have got on a night bus to work in London on many occasion to support the fight against censorship and the killing of what so many now just call 'the elite media class' of journalists all over the world. I am the living embodiment of an SJW crusty hippy punk photo-journalist limp and all, that has had the privilege of spending some of my working life talking to the people who worked with Strummer and the people who helped start Rock against Racism and the Anti-Nazi league. I make no apologies for it. In the end it has kept me alive and helped support two generations.

Benjamin is not Obama and while Obama may have deserved a personal droning, Benjamin certainly deserves at least a bucket of milkshake for many reasons, selling out an electorate to a corrupt party being one of many. The amount of racist shite Obama caught by people prefacing it with provisos that is was not because they were racist that they hated the muslim non american with the fake birth certificate made it quite clear, even from here across the pond, that he was not given the easy ride you are suggesting. I never defended the war monger but did not feel the need to pretend that Trump is not corrupt, inept and as neck deep in corruption as the Clintons and all the others.

You are mistaking my not buying into the right wing propaganda as an indication that I must buy into the other end. That is not the case. Nuance, and complexity are what life is about and you will find no more nuance in the Morning Star than you will in the Daily Mail.

I never said that UKIP does not represent the people that voted for Brexit. Of course they do but no more than the tories , the labour party etc do. That is kind of the point. People across the spectrum voted quite equally to stay and leave, It literally split the nation as evidenced in the close result. How we leave and what we would do if we did was never even discussed.

And yes of course you can have an opinion on British politics. I have tried for months to leave the Trump thread alone but your opinion is as valid as anyone else.

You have to remember though that it is American interests that are being used to shape British and European politics in an effort to make everyone hyper nationlist and isolationist. There is a right wing corporate elite push back happening and it is there because it hates the idea of cooperation and commons and community.

Like yourself it views even quite moderate fair capitalist ideas as communism and a threat. What Yanis proposes would represent real change and people are terrified of that. Ironically that is what those voting Brexit really have in common with many Blairite (or LIB DEM traitorous) remainers. THey want either a regression to the past or 'The same as it ever was'.

You cannot get any more establishment than Farrge the toffs and multinational corporations that installed him. He is no alternative just as UKIP the party he formed is not. Benjamin represents a desire to regress as does Tommy because change is just too challenging to them personally.

Its a lot to digest, and you may find it too unpalatetable, but I have nothing to gain by telling lies.

For me the forum, like life, is kind of wasted if all we all think we can't learn anything from others.

I have found it most instructive, if baffling at times, to be surrounded by people quite unlike most of my mates and family etc.


I brought up Gandalf because he has been one of the most vocal on these things and in this thread but he is speaking from a place between us both.


Most people don't even want to speak about it so don't take me or his word for it and certainly look further away from the narrow prism of Tommy, Carl and that whole 'scene'.

It really is not very representative.[/QUOTE]

If you say so then it must be so. I can't comment since I'm not in England and you refuse to answer any questions which would of course show your dedication to attempting to be better and more understanding of each other.

Well.....enjoy yourself

[El Kabong]

Must be kinda rough with no Beethoven, no Salvador Dalí, no Wagner, no Da Vinci, no Michelangelo, why you can't even revel in the boxing of Muhammad Ali what with you not being a Muslim and all you bloody infidel....but hey what do I care, I don't mix my political views and everything I enjoy, you on the other hand

(Waits for logic and reasoning to land)

[walrus]

Damn no Beatles. Is Jimmy buffet ok?

[Beanz]

10-15 years? OK I don't know how that's an issue I'm an adult I was an adult over a decade ago as well. No I don't live there but due to the internet I'm quite able to follow what happens there...various sources too mind. Well I guess if you're "pretty sure" then you must feel good assuming things about me, I do hate to disappoint you, but I don't mix my politics and art (including music) I enjoy, do you? Why would I shut myself off from good art due to politics? Do you?

Have you not? I lived through 8 years of Obama, I've seen plenty and everyone you mentioned has been grilled a hell of a lot harder than Obama ever was. Carl Benjamin on the BBC the other day faced a tougher line of questioning than Obama ever has.

Fine Shapiro terminated an interview, I don't care it's erroneous to the current discussion. If you believe The BBC is right wing then I don't know what to tell you other than "Can you see the edge from where you're standing?"

OK so UKIP and Brexit Party don't represent the people, the people who voted for Brexit...so who does represent those people the Tories? Labour? Change UK?

Why bring up Gandalf? I thought it was you and me that were having a nice discussion where I'm politely asking you questions in order to better understand your position and you're (and maybe this is my not being able to discern tone here) taking shots at me for asking those questions . OK so you're not ok with my having an opinion on British politics....alright then fine I'll go back to my own thread and leave you to sort everything out....


One last thing though....

"I am not telling you how you came to your views. That is abundantly clear"

vs

"It seems you will never accept this whatever he does because he represents something else to you, and that is because you have relied on only heavily distorted propaganda to come to that conclusion. I understand it is the same ignorance that made Ben Shapiro call Andrew Neil a lefty this week "


Cognitive Dissonance.....what's that?

REPLY

It is only because you constantly quote from the same sources that I came to such a conclusion. You of course would think that the internet is a good substitute for boots on the ground because that is part of your generations way of looking at the world. When my stepsons (who is 30) friends made rape jokes in the past it became quite clear that generations view things differently. It doesn't mean that you are incapable of reaching more rational and reasonable conclusions than somebody of my age but it does explain the difference.

And yes of course i mix my politics and art. I have staked almost everything on it, as have virtually all of my closest friends. They are at times inseparable. There is a whole wall of local venue covered in massive blown up versions of my work and in the very centre of it all is an anti-fascist flag. Even if i am skint or knackered I will always make time for an anti-racist gig or to support a charity supporting refugees or abused kids etc. I have got on a night bus to work in London on many occasion to support the fight against censorship and the killing of what so many now just call 'the elite media class' of journalists all over the world. I am the living embodiment of an SJW crusty hippy punk photo-journalist limp and all, that has had the privilege of spending some of my working life talking to the people who worked with Strummer and the people who helped start Rock against Racism and the Anti-Nazi league. I make no apologies for it. In the end it has kept me alive and helped support two generations.

Benjamin is not Obama and while Obama may have deserved a personal droning, Benjamin certainly deserves at least a bucket of milkshake for many reasons, selling out an electorate to a corrupt party being one of many. The amount of racist shite Obama caught by people prefacing it with provisos that is was not because they were racist that they hated the muslim non american with the fake birth certificate made it quite clear, even from here across the pond, that he was not given the easy ride you are suggesting. I never defended the war monger but did not feel the need to pretend that Trump is not corrupt, inept and as neck deep in corruption as the Clintons and all the others.

You are mistaking my not buying into the right wing propaganda as an indication that I must buy into the other end. That is not the case. Nuance, and complexity are what life is about and you will find no more nuance in the Morning Star than you will in the Daily Mail.

I never said that UKIP does not represent the people that voted for Brexit. Of course they do but no more than the tories , the labour party etc do. That is kind of the point. People across the spectrum voted quite equally to stay and leave, It literally split the nation as evidenced in the close result. How we leave and what we would do if we did was never even discussed.

And yes of course you can have an opinion on British politics. I have tried for months to leave the Trump thread alone but your opinion is as valid as anyone else.

You have to remember though that it is American interests that are being used to shape British and European politics in an effort to make everyone hyper nationlist and isolationist. There is a right wing corporate elite push back happening and it is there because it hates the idea of cooperation and commons and community.

Like yourself it views even quite moderate fair capitalist ideas as communism and a threat. What Yanis proposes would represent real change and people are terrified of that. Ironically that is what those voting Brexit really have in common with many Blairite (or LIB DEM traitorous) remainers. THey want either a regression to the past or 'The same as it ever was'.

You cannot get any more establishment than Farrge the toffs and multinational corporations that installed him. He is no alternative just as UKIP the party he formed is not. Benjamin represents a desire to regress as does Tommy because change is just too challenging to them personally.

Its a lot to digest, and you may find it too unpalatetable, but I have nothing to gain by telling lies.

For me the forum, like life, is kind of wasted if all we all think we can't learn anything from others.

I have found it most instructive, if baffling at times, to be surrounded by people quite unlike most of my mates and family etc.


I brought up Gandalf because he has been one of the most vocal on these things and in this thread but he is speaking from a place between us both.


Most people don't even want to speak about it so don't take me or his word for it and certainly look further away from the narrow prism of Tommy, Carl and that whole 'scene'.

It really is not very representative.[/QUOTE]

If you say so then it must be so. I can't comment since I'm not in England and you refuse to answer any questions which would of course show your dedication to attempting to be better and more understanding of each other.

Well.....enjoy yourself[/QUOTE]

How is that an example of me not answering any questions or saying you can't comment?it simply isn't and you know it.

[Beanz]

10-15 years? OK I don't know how that's an issue I'm an adult I was an adult over a decade ago as well. No I don't live there but due to the internet I'm quite able to follow what happens there...various sources too mind. Well I guess if you're "pretty sure" then you must feel good assuming things about me, I do hate to disappoint you, but I don't mix my politics and art (including music) I enjoy, do you? Why would I shut myself off from good art due to politics? Do you?

Have you not? I lived through 8 years of Obama, I've seen plenty and everyone you mentioned has been grilled a hell of a lot harder than Obama ever was. Carl Benjamin on the BBC the other day faced a tougher line of questioning than Obama ever has.

Fine Shapiro terminated an interview, I don't care it's erroneous to the current discussion. If you believe The BBC is right wing then I don't know what to tell you other than "Can you see the edge from where you're standing?"

OK so UKIP and Brexit Party don't represent the people, the people who voted for Brexit...so who does represent those people the Tories? Labour? Change UK?

Why bring up Gandalf? I thought it was you and me that were having a nice discussion where I'm politely asking you questions in order to better understand your position and you're (and maybe this is my not being able to discern tone here) taking shots at me for asking those questions . OK so you're not ok with my having an opinion on British politics....alright then fine I'll go back to my own thread and leave you to sort everything out....


One last thing though....

"I am not telling you how you came to your views. That is abundantly clear"

vs

"It seems you will never accept this whatever he does because he represents something else to you, and that is because you have relied on only heavily distorted propaganda to come to that conclusion. I understand it is the same ignorance that made Ben Shapiro call Andrew Neil a lefty this week "


Cognitive Dissonance.....what's that?[/QUOTE]


REPLY

It is only because you constantly quote from the same sources that I came to such a conclusion. You of course would think that the internet is a good substitute for boots on the ground because that is part of your generations way of looking at the world. When my stepsons (who is 30) friends made rape jokes in the past it became quite clear that generations view things differently. It doesn't mean that you are incapable of reaching more rational and reasonable conclusions than somebody of my age but it does explain the difference.

And yes of course i mix my politics and art. I have staked almost everything on it, as have virtually all of my closest friends. They are at times inseparable. There is a whole wall of local venue covered in massive blown up versions of my work and in the very centre of it all is an anti-fascist flag. Even if i am skint or knackered I will always make time for an anti-racist gig or to support a charity supporting refugees or abused kids etc. I have got on a night bus to work in London on many occasion to support the fight against censorship and the killing of what so many now just call 'the elite media class' of journalists all over the world. I am the living embodiment of an SJW crusty hippy punk photo-journalist limp and all, that has had the privilege of spending some of my working life talking to the people who worked with Strummer and the people who helped start Rock against Racism and the Anti-Nazi league. I make no apologies for it. In the end it has kept me alive and helped support two generations.

Benjamin is not Obama and while Obama may have deserved a personal droning, Benjamin certainly deserves at least a bucket of milkshake for many reasons, selling out an electorate to a corrupt party being one of many. The amount of racist shite Obama caught by people prefacing it with provisos that is was not because they were racist that they hated the muslim non american with the fake birth certificate made it quite clear, even from here across the pond, that he was not given the easy ride you are suggesting. I never defended the war monger but did not feel the need to pretend that Trump is not corrupt, inept and as neck deep in corruption as the Clintons and all the others.

You are mistaking my not buying into the right wing propaganda as an indication that I must buy into the other end. That is not the case. Nuance, and complexity are what life is about and you will find no more nuance in the Morning Star than you will in the Daily Mail.

I never said that UKIP does not represent the people that voted for Brexit. Of course they do but no more than the tories , the labour party etc do. That is kind of the point. People across the spectrum voted quite equally to stay and leave, It literally split the nation as evidenced in the close result. How we leave and what we would do if we did was never even discussed.

And yes of course you can have an opinion on British politics. I have tried for months to leave the Trump thread alone but your opinion is as valid as anyone else.

You have to remember though that it is American interests that are being used to shape British and European politics in an effort to make everyone hyper nationlist and isolationist. There is a right wing corporate elite push back happening and it is there because it hates the idea of cooperation and commons and community.

Like yourself it views even quite moderate fair capitalist ideas as communism and a threat. What Yanis proposes would represent real change and people are terrified of that. Ironically that is what those voting Brexit really have in common with many Blairite (or LIB DEM traitorous) remainers. THey want either a regression to the past or 'The same as it ever was'.

You cannot get any more establishment than Farrge the toffs and multinational corporations that installed him. He is no alternative just as UKIP the party he formed is not. Benjamin represents a desire to regress as does Tommy because change is just too challenging to them personally.

Its a lot to digest, and you may find it too unpalatetable, but I have nothing to gain by telling lies.

For me the forum, like life, is kind of wasted if all we all think we can't learn anything from others.

I have found it most instructive, if baffling at times, to be surrounded by people quite unlike most of my mates and family etc.


I brought up Gandalf because he has been one of the most vocal on these things and in this thread but he is speaking from a place between us both.


Most people don't even want to speak about it so don't take me or his word for it and certainly look further away from the narrow prism of Tommy, Carl and that whole 'scene'.

It really is not very representative.[/QUOTE]

@El Kabong here are you questions answered in full. I posted it already. You really are quite unreasonable. I get you don't like or agree with the answers but that is not the point.

Tommy, Carl, PJW and the MSM are two sides of the same coin. They feed each other and revel in outrage and identity politics. You and many here reposting their crap are part of the same game.

[El Kabong]

OK so I'm now going to address your answers to those questions

It is only because you constantly quote from the same sources that I came to such a conclusion.

OH ok so you ARE telling me how I came to my views then. That's fine if it is what you believe, it's not necessarily something I appreciate you assuming but in this case I do appreciate that you honestly admitted that is exactly what you were doing.

You of course would think that the internet is a good substitute for boots on the ground because that is part of your generations way of looking at the world.

Well the internet has made a massive change in communication, news, and politics worldwide to not accept that absolute fact is a bit odd especially for someone so tied to progress and change and the like.

When my stepsons (who is 30) friends made rape jokes in the past it became quite clear that generations view things differently. It doesn't mean that you are incapable of reaching more rational and reasonable conclusions than somebody of my age but it does explain the difference.

Well to paraphrase one of your responses to me 'I'm not your stepson, I'm not your stepson's friends either'. I grew up with shock jocks lewd and crude humor and the boundaries of free speech (of which there should be none) being tested constantly. I also grew up with manners, respect, and dignity all of which have their place in polite society. No geopolitical state, no political party, no gender, no age has the market cornered on idiots that is what I believe. Age could bring wisdom from experience, but experience itself has no age to it. I believe all ages, all experience levels, everyone should get the opportunity to chime in as someone who looks at a problem from a new perspective could quite possibly find the solution by not having their mind clouded from past experiences...now disaster could happen that way as well so I reckon a good balance is needed.

And yes of course i mix my politics and art. I have staked almost everything on it, as have virtually all of my closest friends.

Well that is a perfectly fine and admirable (to an extent) way for you to choose to live your life. Not everyone chooses to live that way though, I certainly don't as I believe it would limit not just what art I appreciated it would limit HOW I appreciated the art. Viewing/experiencing art only through the lens of politics is something I find far too shallow. So again, I'm by no means having a pop at you or what you decide for yourself I'm just saying for me personally as an individual I like being open to different art regardless of the politics of it...what do I lose in being open to listening/experiencing that art? (and that's a rhetorical question so you certainly don't have to respond to it)

Benjamin is not Obama and while Obama may have deserved a personal droning, Benjamin certainly deserves at least a bucket of milkshake for many reasons, selling out an electorate to a corrupt party being one of many. The amount of racist shite Obama caught by people prefacing it with provisos that is was not because they were racist that they hated the muslim non american with the fake birth certificate made it quite clear, even from here across the pond, that he was not given the easy ride you are suggesting. I never defended the war monger but did not feel the need to pretend that Trump is not corrupt, inept and as neck deep in corruption as the Clintons and all the others.

No of course Benjamin isn't Obama he'd be treated far better if he were. You say things like "selling out an electorate to a corrupt party being one of many" but never expound on it which that is exactly where the information I want is, so if you would be so kind as to lay out those things and I know it is difficult (as I have my problems with staying on topic as well), but try not to go off on some different rant while you pour over the specifics of your dislike for Carl I would greatly appreciate the insight that would provide me and perhaps I could then see your side of things if you aren't too jaded by this (and it's completely fine to me if you say "nah I'm too jaded in dealing with you") I'd much more appreciate that than getting into the rut of fighting again which I for one am not going to do anymore, I'd rather not post at all than go back to that.

You are mistaking my not buying into the right wing propaganda as an indication that I must buy into the other end. That is not the case. Nuance, and complexity are what life is about and you will find no more nuance in the Morning Star than you will in the Daily Mail.

Well this is why I've asked you the questions I have and it's why I'm attempting to understand where exactly you're coming from. I've not done it to waste your time or personally attack you.

I never said that UKIP does not represent the people that voted for Brexit. Of course they do but no more than the tories , the labour party etc do. That is kind of the point. People across the spectrum voted quite equally to stay and leave, It literally split the nation as evidenced in the close result. How we leave and what we would do if we did was never even discussed.

Well firstly I apologize for misrepresenting your words. Now if what you've stated is the case then I guess what must be done is to A) Figure out how to carry out Brexit in a manner that hurts as few people as possible because the vote being officially recognized and consequences thereof being carried out matters and B ) answer the question (this is of the British citizens themselves) why were they handed such a poorly thought out referendum? ....of course my take on that would be that the establishment never thought Brexit would win ergo the ill conceived wording and lack of a plan for if Brexit won the vote.

And yes of course you can have an opinion on British politics. I have tried for months to leave the Trump thread alone but your opinion is as valid as anyone else.

I appreciate that. I also understand that my being physically far away may not see me privy to certain information available on the ground, I do seek out unedited source material as often as possible/available to me. I'm by no means a perfect human being, I do have my opinions and they're not always going to jive with everyone else's and that is absolutely fine. This is a boxing forum we're not solving world peace anytime soon so let's keep our discussions even the political ones light and that is why I want to better understand your views and how you came to them.

You have to remember though that it is American interests that are being used to shape British and European politics in an effort to make everyone hyper nationlist and isolationist. There is a right wing corporate elite push back happening and it is there because it hates the idea of cooperation and commons and community.

What of Globalization then? Is globalization the best option going forward and should it be unopposed? The British government (among many others) attempted to shape American politics in 2016. I believe there's an issue with certain corporations and yes they can hold way too much power and some are far too cozy with China which greatly disturbs me as I see that model as the route to the demise of freedom and liberty worldwide.

1/2

[El Kabong]

2/2

Like yourself it views even quite moderate fair capitalist ideas as communism and a threat. What Yanis proposes would represent real change and people are terrified of that. Ironically that is what those voting Brexit really have in common with many Blairite (or LIB DEM traitorous) remainers. THey want either a regression to the past or 'The same as it ever was'.

It being the "right wing corporate elite"? Yanis is a literal Marxist and while certain folks view Marx as this intellectual giant I guess mere mortals attempting to achieve his worldview have either misunderstood how it works or misrepresented it or something but every time it's tried it fails. Perhaps there's a sweet spot somehow some way that people can achieve, but I don't want to risk 100 million lives on it when I think our economic system needs a tweak here and there in order to get us working correctly. As for "regression or same as it ever was" change happens it's a part of life, but the rate at which change happens matters for cohesive nation states, for assimilation, for polite society...the migration push (and nobody can deny it's a PUSH) isn't for nothing, there's a reason for it and in my own opinion it's to destabilize nation states so that larger overarching (unaccountable to the people) governments gain more power like the EU and UN, but that's my view and yours could be completely different, you could see those things as the wave of the future and the next logical step, I don't know but it's part of why I ask questions and appreciate your honest answers.

You cannot get any more establishment than Farrge the toffs and multinational corporations that installed him. He is no alternative just as UKIP the party he formed is not. Benjamin represents a desire to regress as does Tommy because change is just too challenging to them personally.

That's fine if that is what Farrage truly is. Who installed Corbyn and May? And if they are no different then where does one go as a voter? Carl Benjamin is running because his freedom of speech and part of how he earns his money have been under attack for years. Carl Benjamin was happy to play and review videogames but Gamergate happened, Feminists have made it their mission in life to destroy him, and various platforms ban or censor him....they could have just let him alone couldn't they? Even if he attempts to troll those people, they aren't required by law to notice him or react to him and ditto with Tommy. Carl and Tommy have followings for a reason, they didn't come out of nowhere.

Its a lot to digest, and you may find it too unpalatetable, but I have nothing to gain by telling lies.

For me the forum, like life, is kind of wasted if all we all think we can't learn anything from others.

I have found it most instructive, if baffling at times, to be surrounded by people quite unlike most of my mates and family etc.

I brought up Gandalf because he has been one of the most vocal on these things and in this thread but he is speaking from a place between us both.

Most people don't even want to speak about it so don't take me or his word for it and certainly look further away from the narrow prism of Tommy, Carl and that whole 'scene'.

It really is not very representative.

Indeed, and I appreciate your taking the time to respond honestly. I agree we should be trying to hear voices from opposing views, we should challenge our own views and be up for defending our own views as well. I too have been completely blindsided by some of the different opinions on here and there have been more than a few times I've responded incorrectly to them, I'm attempting to do better but I'll never agree 100% with anyone I don't even 100% agree with myself after a while.

I ask when you bring up other posters in a response to me because I feel (and maybe this is just me) but I perceive that causing more work for you as Gandalf or Al or myself or whomever will of course see they're mentioned, they'll then decide to respond and with 1 post you've now got 3-4 people you're having a discussion with instead of just the one and that would lead me to believe that oftentimes you might feel ganged up on because of that type of thing...but that's just an observation from me so take it for what it is worth.

Well I do frequently ask questions to myself of what Tommy, Carl, etc produce, but it's never so much more than I ask of the mainstream media as those are gigantic corporations (of which we're all rightly dubious of correct?) So it kind of piques my interest when The BBC (whom you've said are far right) bring on Carl Benjamin and attempt to demolish him in an interrogation style interview because that to me doesn't add up unless of course one is to view the BBC as the establishment and Carl Benjamin then as anti-establishment in which case should we not err on the side of the little guy or is the little guy owned and operated by the mega corporations who (and this is a bit conspiracy theory-like) are at odds with other mega corporations that run media? So that's a bit tricky for me to unravel. I do of course check out other sources but Carl is (even if you disagree with his politics) quite good at what he does. He produces good arguments and debates rather well, he's been debating all over England and sure the protesters he faces aren't the best spoken lot and maybe they get a bit of stage fright, but Carl is seemingly willing to talk to anyone and everyone, shouldn't that be the case for all politicians? I'd certainly welcome it in America.

@El Kabong here are you questions answered in full. I posted it already. You really are quite unreasonable. I get you don't like or agree with the answers but that is not the point.

Tommy, Carl, PJW and the MSM are two sides of the same coin. They feed each other and revel in outrage and identity politics. You and many here reposting their crap are part of the same game.

I appreciate that. If you feel I'm unreasonable then that is fine you're certainly free to feel as you like. I won't bother you with my posting if you'd rather I move along to something else.

Tommy, Carl, and PJW don't have giant corporations behind them funding everything they do and demonizing and silencing everyone that dares disagree with them so they are quite different than the mainstream media. Very few corporations control our media in the United States and you've got STATE controlled media in the BBC in Britain so why not give a listen outside of that bubble? That is what I do and it better helps me digest news from the mainstream media because they DO lie by omission, they DO skew stories, they DO play favorites, and they hide things quite cleverly all of which leaves me questioning why? But hey that is me and my view and if you find me too troublesome to deal with then that is fine I'll leave you be.