The jab -- technically perfecting it (Help please)

Are there technical details that can improve the jab significantly past what is commonly taught to beginners?

I wish to technically perfect my jab. It seems such a simple thing but most seem to agree it is the most important of all punches and my coach is adamant about "making him fear your jab".

Ok, so feel free to correct me or even think I am silly for going to this level of detail:

[I am 57, not ever going to be a competition boxer but I want to do this right. I am fairly strong, 5'10/198, 2 months into regular boxing training, 2-6 times per week, with a background in Systema which means hitting hard through hitting correctly and using good posture/form.]

It makes sense that technical perfection is important for a boxer IN ADDITION to building up the muscles and nervous system (control) since at any particular weight class there is an upper limit on how much muscle you can carry. Everyone can work to improve strength, but optimizing technique requires little extra burden to use what strength we have most efficiently and effectively.

What I (think that I) know about a jab:

1. Comes straight out with arm as relaxed as possible
2. Hand turns to horizontal at end as contact is made
3. Snaps back to guard immediately

What I suspect might be true:

1. Coach was correcting me on starting to turn my hand too soon (not just at the end) and I got to thinking about "How specifically to turn the hand?" and noticed there are two ways: 1) At the forearm using the radius to twist the wrist over, or 2) at the SHOULDER to twist the entire arm rotating the (point of the) elbow to horizontal.
   I think the latter -- turn the whole arm -- is correct and that this is easier to time and easier to allow the arm to go out relaxed.
   The elbow is almost fully extended when the elbow starts to go straight and you just this to signal the hand twist at the end.
   This also means that the alignment of hand (bones) with radius and ulna should be better than having them twisted around each other.
2. Turning the whole arm seems to make my arm about 1/2 - 1 inch longer so this means that I get to hit a little deeper but also that the muscle power used to turn the arm is actually driving the hand forward if I save it for right at the end like this -- using additional muscles to extend the hand as contact is made means more power to the punch -- and these seem to be the rear delt head and rotators which are otherwise not getting to do much of value in a straight punch.
3. Rotating the whole arm (from the shoulder) like this seems to be more naturally combined with a slight extension of the shoulder using the pectoralis and with a slight twist of the waist to get more extension -- and again, this gets more muscles into the punch and these are big muscles so they have a lot of power to add.
   Notice that this can be done without the arm rotation too but it feels more natural (to me) with that type of rotation AND it seems this LATE rotation makes a good physiological signal for timing the shoulder extension and the slight twist. These two movements are going to be pretty small so it is important to save them for the moment of impact to add max power.
4. With the point of the elbow pointed outward the fastest way to retract the arm seems to be:
   Allow the hand to rebound slightly (just an inch or two) using the biceps to get a very small bend at the elbow and then drop/PULL that elbow down HARD -- the hand can be ignored at this point as the (almost violent) downward pull with lats and pects will yank the hand back like mouse trap springing while keeping the arm mostly relaxed.
   Again, using big muscles AND GRAVITY to get something done should be both faster and less tiring.
5. [Not very confident about this one] A small (less than an inch) gravity drop on the front knee while keeping the torso vertical (no leaning) will let the front hip twist slightly forward thus putting a little hip and weight into the jab.
   [Also, I haven't practiced this one enough to even have an opinion yet.]

Am I on to something here or just fooling myself?

I wanted to ask these questions over the week-end when I worked through this, but decided to wait until I went to the gym and tried it.

My first impression is that it makes a difference. Both the method of turning the arm, the way it allows the shoulder and body into the jab, and (most surprisingly) the speed and easy of getting the hand back to guard almost without effort.

I am going to concentrate on perfecting this sequence for the next couple of weeks, but really would like to hear any additional improvements, alternatives, or why this is not a good idea if I am headed down a bad path...

[Coach is on vacation...so I will also ask him when he returns.]

BTW if any of this is valuable, some of this applies to the straight right as well, but right now I am focused on getting everything out of my jab that is feasible.

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HerbM

HerbM, spot on there are ways to practice it the Technique that is. Very well written.

Hi Herb, I see that you've given this a lot of thought. I thought that the following might help clear up some of your concerns:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scrap

Chin back and your distance is the back foot. when throwing the jab finish palm of fist down. The shoulder should be touching your chin, right shoulder pulled back to move left shoulder forward. From that position every thing goes tits up, everybody to a man,tries to make the distance from knuckle to chin longer. It can't be done, and that's why people 90% of the time get hit with counters by putting themselves of balance and on the front foot. There isn't enough time spent working on this fundamental skill.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

The one thing not to do is to put weight on your front foot when you jab in an effort to get longer arms to have a harder jab whatever. Once there on that front foot you are a target and cannot throw a right without rocking back on the rear foot then coming forward again. Remember Quartey? If you came to him....but if you stayed away he had trouble moving lose behind that hard jab and you can count all the "1-2"'s he'd throw in a fight on one hand, odd for such a prolific jabber. Towards the end Terry Norris got the same habit of perching way up on the front foot when he jabbed...

Also, when hitting the bags etc...don't cheat your jab to favor your right. Get it all the way out- turning your shoulders as Scrap described or you'll forever be smothering your own punches

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

When you jab do not shift weight to your left foot because then you can't move nor can you throw a proper right (recall Quartey-DeLaHoya and how Ike was unable to move in behind a jab, having put weight forward with the punch) picture an xy axis centering your body from each side. You always want the shoulder of the hand your are punching with to cross that center line where you move the fist. With the jab you utilize a barely perceptible twist of the hip, and of the shoulders (from the 10 or 11 on a clock to the 12) keep the elbow down then snap it up and fully extend the arm the punch landing on the large knuckles. All motion is forward and the trajectory should rise slightly. Don't listen to that "bring it back fast" crap or you'll end up pulling your blow. What is vital is that the fist return along the same path it left on.

If you put your shoulder into the jab, and pop the elbow/rotate the fist your chin's behind your shoulder and your arm retracts with the shoulder- impossible to drop your left. the jab is a fluent natural punch - practice "catching flies" out of the air. Or get your trainer to tape 10 little spots to the mitt and try to snatch them off The pop in the punch comes from several source: first, the quick turn of shoulder and hip; second, the sudden snap in the elbow; and third from your feet. You want your hands and feet coordinated so that each time your left foot moves you jab, pushing off the rear foot go watch some fencing, or Rcardo Lopez tape. good luck

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Anyway, one of the things that I liked to do on the bags while to practice jabbing, is circling just out of reach, and then step in to jab and then get back out (but not going straight backward). You see, you don't have to stay in punching range when hitting the bag.

Thanks Chris.

From your post I definitely picked up at least one thing that I had totally omitted: Shoulder to tucked chin.

...but I remain a little confused if the rest of the quotes were supposed to point out specifics where I had something wrong.

Do you know -- or know of a source -- that explains the bio-mechanical and technical (physics) reasons for turning the hand palm down (and I presume doing this from the shoulder as I wrote)?

Everybody (including the karate folks and my own beliefs) seems to argue for this, but I am wondering if there is any actual science behind it???

Also, my coach is wanting me to hit both hard and fast with the jab -- are there any (technical) tricks for doing all three of the following on the jab:

1. Hitting hard
2. Getting the hand fully back
3. Avoiding a 'pause' between repeated jabs

...or must I just keep hitting until the muscles/nervous system make physiological changes?

My jabs hit fairly hard, but I am definitely introducing a (very) slight pause between jabs when doubling, tripling etc. I want to remove that delay but keep a strong punch and good form (getting the hand back to guard.)

Oh, and yes, I did put a lot of thought into this, and I work hard each bag session to put in my maximum without saving anything 'for later'. Some of this will improve with more training/development, but I believe that the perfect punch will always be stronger and more effective at any particularly physical level.

[Oh, and yes, I lost a little bit while rebuilding the punch from my original approximation -- had to retrain, still retraining the neurology and muscles to automate the new behavior -- but that period should be over in a few more training sessions. Sort of like changing the grip in golf will set someone back for a bit but if the grip is truly better the re-learning pays back in the long term.]

Thanks for thinking this stuff through with me and for the advice. Also thanks to Scrap for the encouragement and for originally writing some of the quotes you posted to help me.

--
HerbM

I believe one should practice and use a variety of jabs with variation in the speed and number of jabs, the lead jab to the power jab, to body and head.

Interesting post HerbM, personally I think everyone has their own jab. Mine for example I like it to have 2 personalities really, one where I don't really throw it to do any damage but more to measure range, and the other where it's a fast, hard, sharp jab and gradually turn it into a left straight.

I'm still learning obviously but this is how my theory goes for the perfect jab, this is just my theory though, it might be completely wrong and absolute bull****. But hey, it's mine hehe.

My jab is like this, I don't turn it, instead I keep it parallel to my shoulder so it's always lined up, hiding my shoulder really. about halfway trough the punch, without turning the fist, I start putting my body into it tugging my other hand into the chest to add power, twisting my shoulder outward toward my opponent, follow by the hips, but not the feet. Then snap it back.

In my head this creates what I think is an invisible jab, when I react to a punch I react to the body itself what it does, to me a jab like that is deadly, because there's no signal to show it's coming, only about halfway trough is something other than the jab itself moving, and even then the hand still doesn't turn at all, I hit him vertically with the hand. To me this jab is completely invisible, and I know I wouldn't be able to react to it or see it coming, so this is in my opinion the perfect jab.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HerbM

Thanks Chris.

From your post I definitely picked up at least one thing that I had totally omitted: Shoulder to tucked chin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scrap

What moves the left shoulder is the right shoulder simple Biomechanics. If you pull the left shoulder back when throwing the right it does 2 things. 1st it keeps stability on the back foot, 2 the hook that follows has better Technique, through balance. The muscles in the arm and shoulder have had bad practice, if you keep working at it, it will come right. It feels strange at 1st, the joint has bad habits.

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-Pulling/turning the right shoulder back is a trigger making it easier to get your chin behind your arm when you jab.

...but I remain a little confused if the rest of the quotes were supposed to point out specifics where I had something wrong.

Do you know -- or know of a source -- that explains the bio-mechanical and technical (physics) reasons for turning the hand palm down (and I presume doing this from the shoulder as I wrote)?

Everybody (including the karate folks and my own beliefs) seems to argue for this, but I am wondering if there is any actual science behind it???

No, but I'd also like to know more about the biomechanics behind it too. I think that this sort of question would be best answered by Scrap, since it's his field of expertise. It's worth making a topic about.

Also, my coach is wanting me to hit both hard and fast with the jab -- are there any (technical) tricks for doing all three of the following on the jab:

1. Hitting hard
2. Getting the hand fully back -also try to get your elbows back, as that can improve your body's response time according to Scrap.
3. Avoiding a 'pause' between repeated jabs

...or must I just keep hitting until the muscles/nervous system make physiological changes?

Just work on improving your default jab, with and without stepping into it. Things such as throwing it relaxed can take considerable time, and it's better not to try too hard. It does improve with time.

Stepping in with the jab, with a slight twist of yours hips, and turning your shoulders can generate a lot of power for the jab. When doubling it up, I think that it's usually better to take a couple of steps forward. My line of thinking, is this is so that you're not overreaching with your jabs. Other times, you can can just take a step forward with one jab, and if they're still in range, you can hit them with a hard short left without having to take another step.

My jabs hit fairly hard, but I am definitely introducing a (very) slight pause between jabs when doubling, tripling etc. I want to remove that delay but keep a strong punch and good form (getting the hand back to guard.)

Oh, and yes, I did put a lot of thought into this, and I work hard each bag session to put in my maximum without saving anything 'for later'. Some of this will improve with more training/development, but I believe that the perfect punch will always be stronger and more effective at any particularly physical level.

[Oh, and yes, I lost a little bit while rebuilding the punch from my original approximation -- had to retrain, still retraining the neurology and muscles to automate the new behavior -- but that period should be over in a few more training sessions. Sort of like changing the grip in golf will set someone back for a bit but if the grip is truly better the re-learning pays back in the long term.]

Thanks for thinking this stuff through with me and for the advice. Also thanks to Scrap for the encouragement and for originally writing some of the quotes you posted to help me.

You're welcome. I'm glad that I could help you.

--
HerbM

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zelly

I believe one should practice and use a variety of jabs with variation in the speed and number of jabs, the lead jab to the power jab, to body and head.

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That's good too, there are a lot of different things that can be practiced. Even a quick, light jab has a lot of practical value.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris Nagel

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HerbM

Thanks Chris.

From your post I definitely picked up at least one thing that I had totally omitted: Shoulder to tucked chin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scrap

What moves the left shoulder is the right shoulder simple Biomechanics. If you pull the left shoulder back when throwing the right it does 2 things. 1st it keeps stability on the back foot, 2 the hook that follows has better Technique, through balance. The muscles in the arm and shoulder have had bad practice, if you keep working at it, it will come right. It feels strange at 1st, the joint has bad habits.

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-Pulling/turning the right shoulder back is a trigger making it easier to get your chin behind your arm when you jab.

...but I remain a little confused if the rest of the quotes were supposed to point out specifics where I had something wrong.

Do you know -- or know of a source -- that explains the bio-mechanical and technical (physics) reasons for turning the hand palm down (and I presume doing this from the shoulder as I wrote)?

Everybody (including the karate folks and my own beliefs) seems to argue for this, but I am wondering if there is any actual science behind it???

No, but I'd also like to know more about the biomechanics behind it too. I think that this sort of question would be best answered by Scrap, since it's his field of expertise. It's worth making a topic about.

Also, my coach is wanting me to hit both hard and fast with the jab -- are there any (technical) tricks for doing all three of the following on the jab:

1. Hitting hard
2. Getting the hand fully back -also try to get your elbows back, as that can improve your body's response time according to Scrap.
3. Avoiding a 'pause' between repeated jabs

...or must I just keep hitting until the muscles/nervous system make physiological changes?

Just work on improving your default jab, with and without stepping into it. Things such as throwing it relaxed can take considerable time, and it's better not to try too hard. It does improve with time.

Stepping in with the jab, with a slight twist of yours hips, and turning your shoulders can generate a lot of power for the jab. When doubling it up, I think that it's usually better to take a couple of steps forward. My line of thinking, is this is so that you're not overreaching with your jabs. Other times, you can can just take a step forward with one jab, and if they're still in range, you can hit them with a hard short left without having to take another step.

My jabs hit fairly hard, but I am definitely introducing a (very) slight pause between jabs when doubling, tripling etc. I want to remove that delay but keep a strong punch and good form (getting the hand back to guard.)

Oh, and yes, I did put a lot of thought into this, and I work hard each bag session to put in my maximum without saving anything 'for later'. Some of this will improve with more training/development, but I believe that the perfect punch will always be stronger and more effective at any particularly physical level.

[Oh, and yes, I lost a little bit while rebuilding the punch from my original approximation -- had to retrain, still retraining the neurology and muscles to automate the new behavior -- but that period should be over in a few more training sessions. Sort of like changing the grip in golf will set someone back for a bit but if the grip is truly better the re-learning pays back in the long term.]

Thanks for thinking this stuff through with me and for the advice. Also thanks to Scrap for the encouragement and for originally writing some of the quotes you posted to help me.

You're welcome. I'm glad that I could help you.

--
HerbM

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zelly

I believe one should practice and use a variety of jabs with variation in the speed and number of jabs, the lead jab to the power jab, to body and head.

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That's good too, there are a lot of different things that can be practiced. Even a quick, light jab has a lot of practical value.

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Just popping the jab out there every now and then can be good if you have a long reach like my self (205cm;)) it lets the opponent know not to step in too quick or this is coming at you. But not too often

Hey Herb

Firstly, you're not being silly, it's good that you're being analytical...many aren't when it comes to understanding and deploying the technique of punching. You are also correct in your view that improving your technique is more benficial than seeking to focus on building strength.

Now, in terms of what your jab should do. Whilst the twist of the wrist is important, I'm not sure it contributes greatly to the impact of the jab when it lands. The main contributory factors to landing a jab with 'power' are a) ensuring that the opponent doesn't see the jab coming and b) the direction of movement of both you and your opponent (obviously, if you are both moving toward each other then the impact of any straight shot will increase). In modern amateur boxing, a key reason that the wrist turns and all punches land 'palm down' is because the referee will warn the boxer for slapping!

Speaking as a coach, I can't help but feel that you may be better focussing on ensuring that there is no 'telegraphing' of the jab rather than searching for physiological adjustments to improve power. As I see it, the basics of the jab are:

1. From the stance and on-guard position, the first action is a push from the front foot which in turn rotates the upper-body slightly so that the hips and shoulders will align with the opponent.
2. As the rotation is taking place, the lead arm is thrust out, ensuring that the lead arm elbow follows the same line as the fist i.e. there is no lateral movement of the elbow at all, whatsoever!
3. As the lead arm is moving towards the target it accelerates. As the fist approaches the target (having covered about 75% of the distance to the target) it rotates inwards, so that the palm is facing down towards the floor. At the last moment, the fist clenches and ’snaps’ on to the target.
4. The fist returns along the same line as before, returning to the ‘home’ position as per the stance.

And some common faults:

1. There is an urge to try and hit too hard. The desire to throw the punch hard often results in the boxer’s weight transferring to the front leg. This has the effect of impairing the balance and making you very vulnerable to counter-attack. Remember, the jab will often be thrown as you move forward, so throwing the weight onto the front leg is very high risk!
2. The punch is ‘telegraphed’, or tell-tale movement before the punch begins it’s journey. These movements are often the elbow lifting to the side or the fist dropping slightly, both of which are dead giveaways.
3. The boxer allows the punch to become an upper-body movement. Ensure that the rotation of the upper-body is generated by the push from the front leg.

Much better to throw an accurate jab that lands rather than a 'powerful' jab that misses! Sugar Ray Leonard once said "I'm not known as a hard puncher, I'm known as a consistent puncher. If the first one don't getcha, the next one will!"
Good luck mate

[Rather than try to quote everyone and reply inline, I am just going to add my new current understandings or clarifications -- or questions. And again, thanks to all who are helping, I really appreciate your time and attention.]

As to multiple jabs, I absolutely agree and had thought to put that in the first post, but decided my long post to stand some simplification. So I think this question was about the power jab, since my coach is riding me to develop that -- with speed and no hesitation or delay when doubling. My biggest current problem with THIS type of jab is keeping the power without introducing a delay, especially as my arm fatigues after multiple rounds.

I think if you have a clean fast power jab, you can always tone it down for distance measuring and distraction, but doing the opposite isn't likely to be as trivial.

In my opinion, my jab has little or no telegraph characteristics, and goes out (and back) very relaxed -- even though I am new at boxing, I have a couple of serious years in Systema where (practically) every punch is relaxed and thrown ballistically, usually with a definite strategy of concealing the actual punch. Sure, I can improve here, but these are current best attributes, along with hitting hard -- that is, at my current level. I will need to improve these again as my current weaknesses catch up, an continuous, iterative process the Japenese (businesses) call Kaizen.

My tendency to hesitate between jabs when throwing hard isn't about telegraphing, but merely a neuro-muscular delay to 'find the power' again. Likely this is just going to take driving myself to and through exhaustion for few weeks/months, until either the muscles or the nerves (both really) respond faster even when fatigued.

I also agree with the "getting the elbow" back -- I find this makes a much more reliable mental trigger for retrieving the hand/glove back to guard. If I concentrate on snapping the elbow down and back to the body the hand MUST end up where it belongs, but merely pulling the hand allows the hand to end up almost anywhere...
I finally got in a little 'shadow sparring' -- no real hitting -- with a bunch of more experienced young guys ages 20-35 -- and got to see where all this practice is taking me, at least to a small degree. They all noticed my continued aggressiveness (moving forward, jabbing my way in) and my defenses were much better than I expected, both catching their shots and (wonder of wonders) moving my head. (My only real disability is some chronic arthritis and extremely stiff joints including the neck and spine.)

But, I started slipping and ducking punches at their encouragement and it was surprising (to me) how many I could just avoid and immediately counter punch successfully.

Only problem with this is that I cannot really tell what works since they aren't really hitting me even though I tried to encourage them to put more into showing me my weaknesses -- really, I don't mind being hit and it's the only way I can really know if what I am doing is working even though I feel no real need to add real contact to hitting them.

I watch a lot of boxing on TV -- my wife likes it too fortunately -- and of all the fighters I see, I think I am most like Glen Johnson the light heavyweight. Although I am seriously working on cutting angles (from Systema and AMOK!) and not just going straight in every time (my natural tendency).

Johnson is about my size -- I outweigh him by about the amount of fat I need to lose, ~20 lbs -- and build except that my arms are a bit longer for my height.

I do not however want to be limited to just one such style of fighting however.

Thanks again for the continued help.
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HerbM

I initially responded a bit generally, but came back to re-read your excellent post Fran and want to bore in a bit deeper with some follow-up questions on some of your specific points....

Again, thanks everyone -- you have all assured me it isn't silly or a waste of time to study this carefully so I am still putting a lot of thought AND practice concentration (mostly on the heavy bag) into this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fran@myboxingcoach

Hey Herb

...As I see it, the basics of the jab are:

1. From the stance and on-guard position, the first action is a push from the front foot which in turn rotates the upper-body slightly so that the hips and shoulders will align with the opponent.

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"push from the front foot...rotates the upper-body" must mean we are pushing to the OUTSIDE to turn our body inside, right?

We wouldn't be pushing ourselves back (with front foot) would we?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fran@myboxingcoach

Hey Herb

2. As the rotation is taking place, the lead arm is thrust out, ensuring that the lead arm elbow follows the same line as the fist i.e. there is no lateral movement of the elbow at all, whatsoever!

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I need to ask about a very picky detail since I may not be doing this perfectly: My elbo is NOT going off line for at least the first 90% of the jab stroke, but since the shoulder begins the rotation at the last inch or two of extension the elbow must (bio-mechanics) be offline VERY slightly at this end of the punch, right?

At this point, the hand is just starting to contact the target, so I am not talking about anything that would telegraph the punch, but merely using that should roll to try to add a few more pounds of force and a little more speed as the glove connects.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fran@myboxingcoach

Hey Herb
...

4. The fist returns along the same line as before, returning to the ‘home’ position as per the stance.

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I am thinking -- and ASKING you not arguing -- that the arm can better return if it is NOT pulled back precisely the same way it is extended, so (feel free to) correct me on the following:

By pulling the hand back a bit before dropping/unrolling the elbow you can get a mechanically and gravity advantage by having that elbow out a little on the return -- the advantage comes because the muscles to drop the elbow and pull it into the body (lats and even pects) are asymetrical with the muscles for lifting/extending it (mainly delts).

By letting that elbow bend out a little bit you can accelerate the elbow back INTO the body, and you get a retrieval advantage that isn't useful on the way out.

IF (big if) I am correct, this is a small by minor point, but doing this seems to be helping me retrieve my arm faster (and more reliably) with less effort, especially when I am tired from several rounds of hard bag work.

This way I am much less likely to do a partial return when trying to double or triple the jab, and the speed certainly seems to be greater (also, coach hasn't corrected my return since I started doing this but this might be only an accident of his attention to what I need most.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fran@myboxingcoach

Hey Herb

And some common faults:

1. There is an urge to try and hit too hard. The desire to throw the punch hard often results in the boxer’s weight transferring to the front leg. This has the effect of impairing the balance and making you very vulnerable to counter-attack. Remember, the jab will often be thrown as you move forward, so throwing the weight onto the front leg is very high risk!

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I certainly get what you are saying about "punch too hard' -- there is a line past which putting more muscle (or giving up balance of course) just ruins the whole action.

Golfers see this all the time; you cannot make the ball go further by forcing it, you must rather hit it better.

I have been practicing the "front foot drop" since my first reading of Dempsey's book; but I am definitely NOT letting this throw me forward, merely picking up the foot and dropping back onto it (about an inch or two) while keeping most of my weight back as per my original stance.

This was my least confident point (#5) in my original post, but after reading Dempsey's recommendations, I am definitely practicing it to have this as a CHOICE.

This is NOT "falling into the punch" but rather falling back onto good balance, using that slight movement forward just at the moment of impact -- any sooner or any later and this subtle movement is totally wasted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fran@myboxingcoach

2. The punch is ‘telegraphed’, or tell-tale movement before the punch begins it’s journey. These movements are often the elbow lifting to the side or the fist dropping slightly, both of which are dead giveaways.

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I am known (from Systema) for having no telegraph and being able to hit from odd angles or unexpectedly without even cocking, but I do want to test this with some sparring in boxing.

Systema practitioners actively practice what is called "short work" (being able to hit hard from in close) and "drop baiting" (leaving a hand in place as you move and then hitting from there). In drop baiting the hand seems to disappear (from the opponent's vision) as he tracks your body, and then comes out of nowhere because it became momentarily stationary while everything else was moving.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fran@myboxingcoach

3. The boxer allows the punch to become an upper-body movement. Ensure that the rotation of the upper-body is generated by the push from the front leg.Much better to throw an accurate jab that lands rather than a 'powerful' jab that misses! ...

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Absolutely. I am also focusing now on getting the (slight) upper body rotation from retracting the opposite shoulder rather than pushing out the punching arm.

I figured this out on my own somewhat, it was slightly mentioned in Dempsey's book, and then I found the other excellent thread here on these forums where it has been stated explicitly this way long ago. :)

I believe there are several reasons why retracting the opposite shoulder is so much better -- it avoids neuro-muscular confusion with so much going on in the punching arm/shoulder, it lets the BACK muscles get involved more easily, and it is easier to time this rotation so that it does not start with the punch but only happens near/at the moment of impact.

That rotation is going to be small, especially for a jab, and thus we don't want to waste, disperse, or use it until we are at the target. It can be powerful, but we want all that power at the end of the punch during contact.

My experience with this method (pulling opposite shoulder back at/near impact) is so far quite good on the bag and in shadow boxing.

I seem to be looser, more relaxed in shadow boxing and hitting stronger with less fatigue at the heavy bag.

Also that proper little rotation helps to retrieve and snap the hand when it unwinds so you again get back faster.

Finally, I think this all helps get a LITTLE push from the back right foot once contact is made -- you can feel the power line from back toe to knuckles more strongly.

I have a suspicion that leaving these little things to the very end of the jab, also allows them to be left out when just probing or measuring distance -- or even when a miss occurs. No contact, means less commitment since these little extras are all at the end. Maybe that is wrong, and will lead to 'pushing' the jab, but it is something I am consciously watching for both the good and the bad effects.



Again, I want your (everyone's) honest criticism and corrections -- I have NO ego invested in "being right" but am completely committed to perfecting the power jab.

Hey Herb

Apologies for the delay in responding. I very much appreciate the time you've spent analysing what I posted. Anyway, I'll try to respond in some kind of coherent manner.

1. In terms of the rotation. I find it helps to imagine a perpendicular axis going down through the top of the head, through the centre of the body and fixed into the ground. This axis is fixed, like a steel bar, meaning that the body can only rotate around it and cannot bend (even slightly) one way or another. The push from the front foot rotates the body clockwise around this axis. This rotation is slight. If you imagine the left shoulder being at a starting point of 11 o'clock, it lands at 12 o'clock (the assumption being that we are in an orthodox stance).
2. In response to the issue of the arm being thrust out and the elbow following the same line (or better described the same vertical plane). I tend not to think of the shoulder adding force per se, although in terms of the bio-mechanics I'll defer to your greater understanding of muscle groups etc. My sense is that the rotation aligns your shoulders to the opponent in the split second before impact and therefore accommodates the elbow not leaving the vertical plane.
3. The fist returning along the same line. Following the boxer landing a jab, I tend to focus instantly on defence. A very common response to a jab is a long range right hook to the head or body, so I encourage the boxer to get the elbow straight back to the ribs for the purposes of protection (based upon the logic that the quickest route between 2 points is a straight line). If you feel that allowing the elbow to come out a little aids you getting the arm back to the starting point more quickly and efficiently, then go with it. You're correct to notice the elbow issue in terms of double and triple jabs. A very common problem in boxers when throwing a double jab is that the upper arm/elbow remains extended and the forearm pops out and back to make up the double. This leads to a fairly useless jab (in terms of power) but also leaves the boxer very vulnerable to the long range right hook to the body...not a pleasant shot to be hit with!
4. The 'Front foot drop' sounds to me like an exaggeration of moving forward (back foot pushes and the front foot lifts slightly). As long as the lift doesn't become too noticable or common, thus giving away the shot, then I wouldn't find real fault with it as an option. Whether it adds any significant power, I don't know, I'll have to think a bit more on that one. I am a big fan of Jack Dempsey, a tremendously tough and big hitting man. Were you aware that his method of improving his punch resistance (or chin) as a kid was to have his older brother punch him square on the jaw every day, and every day he was knocked clean on his arse. Then one day he didn't go down...it has to be said this kamikaze approach seemed to work, because when he did get knocked down during his career (Luis Firpo fight for instance), he always got back up!!! The phrase teak tough was invented for Dempsey!
5. In relation to the telegraphing issue. I understand what you're saying in that the body acts as diversion, taking the opponent's attention away from the fist. If it lands, then it's a good shot. My logic in terms of the elbow not raising as the shot goes is twofold really i) the human eye is much better at spotting side to side movement rather than movement to or from it, this is why we need to look twice when crossing the road, and ii) the strength of the shot is improved as the snap and 'locking' of the arm if timed well maximises impact.
6. The final point, your point is very well described and I think I am in broad agreement. I would watch for the right shoulder retracting too far and allowing the upper body to become 'square on' to the opponent, thus leaving a big target to be aimed at.

Thanks for your post Herb. My reply has felt more like a rite of passage :)! I'm now going to sit on my haunches in the corner of a darkened room, rocking back and forth and babbling incoherently!!!!

Take care mate.

Fran