The jab -- technically perfecting it (Help please)

[HerbM]

Thanks Chris.

From your post I definitely picked up at least one thing that I had totally omitted: Shoulder to tucked chin.

...but I remain a little confused if the rest of the quotes were supposed to point out specifics where I had something wrong.

Do you know -- or know of a source -- that explains the bio-mechanical and technical (physics) reasons for turning the hand palm down (and I presume doing this from the shoulder as I wrote)?

Everybody (including the karate folks and my own beliefs) seems to argue for this, but I am wondering if there is any actual science behind it

Also, my coach is wanting me to hit both hard and fast with the jab -- are there any (technical) tricks for doing all three of the following on the jab:

1. Hitting hard
2. Getting the hand fully back
3. Avoiding a 'pause' between repeated jabs

...or must I just keep hitting until the muscles/nervous system make physiological changes?

My jabs hit fairly hard, but I am definitely introducing a (very) slight pause between jabs when doubling, tripling etc. I want to remove that delay but keep a strong punch and good form (getting the hand back to guard.)

Oh, and yes, I did put a lot of thought into this, and I work hard each bag session to put in my maximum without saving anything 'for later'. Some of this will improve with more training/development, but I believe that the perfect punch will always be stronger and more effective at any particularly physical level.

[Oh, and yes, I lost a little bit while rebuilding the punch from my original approximation -- had to retrain, still retraining the neurology and muscles to automate the new behavior -- but that period should be over in a few more training sessions. Sort of like changing the grip in golf will set someone back for a bit but if the grip is truly better the re-learning pays back in the long term.]

Thanks for thinking this stuff through with me and for the advice. Also thanks to Scrap for the encouragement and for originally writing some of the quotes you posted to help me.

--
HerbM

[Zelley]

I believe one should practice and use a variety of jabs with variation in the speed and number of jabs, the lead jab to the power jab, to body and head.

[N Maiberg]

Interesting post HerbM, personally I think everyone has their own jab. Mine for example I like it to have 2 personalities really, one where I don't really throw it to do any damage but more to measure range, and the other where it's a fast, hard, sharp jab and gradually turn it into a left straight.

I'm still learning obviously but this is how my theory goes for the perfect jab, this is just my theory though, it might be completely wrong and absolute bull****. But hey, it's mine hehe.

My jab is like this, I don't turn it, instead I keep it parallel to my shoulder so it's always lined up, hiding my shoulder really. about halfway trough the punch, without turning the fist, I start putting my body into it tugging my other hand into the chest to add power, twisting my shoulder outward toward my opponent, follow by the hips, but not the feet. Then snap it back.

In my head this creates what I think is an invisible jab, when I react to a punch I react to the body itself what it does, to me a jab like that is deadly, because there's no signal to show it's coming, only about halfway trough is something other than the jab itself moving, and even then the hand still doesn't turn at all, I hit him vertically with the hand. To me this jab is completely invisible, and I know I wouldn't be able to react to it or see it coming, so this is in my opinion the perfect jab.

[Chris Nagel]

Thanks Chris.

From your post I definitely picked up at least one thing that I had totally omitted: Shoulder to tucked chin.

What moves the left shoulder is the right shoulder simple Biomechanics. If you pull the left shoulder back when throwing the right it does 2 things. 1st it keeps stability on the back foot, 2 the hook that follows has better Technique, through balance. The muscles in the arm and shoulder have had bad practice, if you keep working at it, it will come right. It feels strange at 1st, the joint has bad habits.

-Pulling/turning the right shoulder back is a trigger making it easier to get your chin behind your arm when you jab.

...but I remain a little confused if the rest of the quotes were supposed to point out specifics where I had something wrong.

Do you know -- or know of a source -- that explains the bio-mechanical and technical (physics) reasons for turning the hand palm down (and I presume doing this from the shoulder as I wrote)?

Everybody (including the karate folks and my own beliefs) seems to argue for this, but I am wondering if there is any actual science behind it

No, but I'd also like to know more about the biomechanics behind it too. I think that this sort of question would be best answered by Scrap, since it's his field of expertise. It's worth making a topic about.

Also, my coach is wanting me to hit both hard and fast with the jab -- are there any (technical) tricks for doing all three of the following on the jab:

1. Hitting hard
2. Getting the hand fully back -also try to get your elbows back, as that can improve your body's response time according to Scrap.
3. Avoiding a 'pause' between repeated jabs

...or must I just keep hitting until the muscles/nervous system make physiological changes?

Just work on improving your default jab, with and without stepping into it. Things such as throwing it relaxed can take considerable time, and it's better not to try too hard. It does improve with time.

Stepping in with the jab, with a slight twist of yours hips, and turning your shoulders can generate a lot of power for the jab. When doubling it up, I think that it's usually better to take a couple of steps forward. My line of thinking, is this is so that you're not overreaching with your jabs. Other times, you can can just take a step forward with one jab, and if they're still in range, you can hit them with a hard short left without having to take another step.

My jabs hit fairly hard, but I am definitely introducing a (very) slight pause between jabs when doubling, tripling etc. I want to remove that delay but keep a strong punch and good form (getting the hand back to guard.)

Oh, and yes, I did put a lot of thought into this, and I work hard each bag session to put in my maximum without saving anything 'for later'. Some of this will improve with more training/development, but I believe that the perfect punch will always be stronger and more effective at any particularly physical level.

[Oh, and yes, I lost a little bit while rebuilding the punch from my original approximation -- had to retrain, still retraining the neurology and muscles to automate the new behavior -- but that period should be over in a few more training sessions. Sort of like changing the grip in golf will set someone back for a bit but if the grip is truly better the re-learning pays back in the long term.]

Thanks for thinking this stuff through with me and for the advice. Also thanks to Scrap for the encouragement and for originally writing some of the quotes you posted to help me.

You're welcome. I'm glad that I could help you.

--
HerbM

I believe one should practice and use a variety of jabs with variation in the speed and number of jabs, the lead jab to the power jab, to body and head.

That's good too, there are a lot of different things that can be practiced. Even a quick, light jab has a lot of practical value.

[Aussie_Egg]

Thanks Chris.

From your post I definitely picked up at least one thing that I had totally omitted: Shoulder to tucked chin.

What moves the left shoulder is the right shoulder simple Biomechanics. If you pull the left shoulder back when throwing the right it does 2 things. 1st it keeps stability on the back foot, 2 the hook that follows has better Technique, through balance. The muscles in the arm and shoulder have had bad practice, if you keep working at it, it will come right. It feels strange at 1st, the joint has bad habits.

-Pulling/turning the right shoulder back is a trigger making it easier to get your chin behind your arm when you jab.

...but I remain a little confused if the rest of the quotes were supposed to point out specifics where I had something wrong.

Do you know -- or know of a source -- that explains the bio-mechanical and technical (physics) reasons for turning the hand palm down (and I presume doing this from the shoulder as I wrote)?

Everybody (including the karate folks and my own beliefs) seems to argue for this, but I am wondering if there is any actual science behind it

No, but I'd also like to know more about the biomechanics behind it too. I think that this sort of question would be best answered by Scrap, since it's his field of expertise. It's worth making a topic about.

Also, my coach is wanting me to hit both hard and fast with the jab -- are there any (technical) tricks for doing all three of the following on the jab:

1. Hitting hard
2. Getting the hand fully back -also try to get your elbows back, as that can improve your body's response time according to Scrap.
3. Avoiding a 'pause' between repeated jabs

...or must I just keep hitting until the muscles/nervous system make physiological changes?

Just work on improving your default jab, with and without stepping into it. Things such as throwing it relaxed can take considerable time, and it's better not to try too hard. It does improve with time.

Stepping in with the jab, with a slight twist of yours hips, and turning your shoulders can generate a lot of power for the jab. When doubling it up, I think that it's usually better to take a couple of steps forward. My line of thinking, is this is so that you're not overreaching with your jabs. Other times, you can can just take a step forward with one jab, and if they're still in range, you can hit them with a hard short left without having to take another step.

My jabs hit fairly hard, but I am definitely introducing a (very) slight pause between jabs when doubling, tripling etc. I want to remove that delay but keep a strong punch and good form (getting the hand back to guard.)

Oh, and yes, I did put a lot of thought into this, and I work hard each bag session to put in my maximum without saving anything 'for later'. Some of this will improve with more training/development, but I believe that the perfect punch will always be stronger and more effective at any particularly physical level.

[Oh, and yes, I lost a little bit while rebuilding the punch from my original approximation -- had to retrain, still retraining the neurology and muscles to automate the new behavior -- but that period should be over in a few more training sessions. Sort of like changing the grip in golf will set someone back for a bit but if the grip is truly better the re-learning pays back in the long term.]

Thanks for thinking this stuff through with me and for the advice. Also thanks to Scrap for the encouragement and for originally writing some of the quotes you posted to help me.

You're welcome. I'm glad that I could help you.

--
HerbM

I believe one should practice and use a variety of jabs with variation in the speed and number of jabs, the lead jab to the power jab, to body and head.

That's good too, there are a lot of different things that can be practiced. Even a quick, light jab has a lot of practical value.

Just popping the jab out there every now and then can be good if you have a long reach like my self (205cm) it lets the opponent know not to step in too quick or this is coming at you. But not too often