I feel petty making this thread but i feel i have to get a point across.
So simply question......
Is Zab Judah elite ?
Yes or No ?
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I feel petty making this thread but i feel i have to get a point across.
So simply question......
Is Zab Judah elite ?
Yes or No ?
Not trying to be a douche, but can you tell me what "elite" means?
Championship caliber today? Then that'd be yes.
Among the Best of today? Probably no.
Comparable to best we've ever seen? No.
Comparable to best there has ever been? No.
As i said in other thread skillfuly he is elite, not mentally though.
I took elite to mean a current world class performer and legitimate player in the division he currently fights in and therefore voted yes.
Former undisputed, unified welterweight champ, current light welter weight belt holder, multiple times world champion, fought the absolute best at world level including at least 3 Hall of Famers in Tsyzu, Mayweather and Cotto and one of the most high smaller weight fighters of the last 10 years or so.
Not IMO lost all the big fights he has been in , lacks mental strenght when the shit hits the fan.
By my definition of elite he's not now and he never has been.
What does Elite mean to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeH
Bilbo has already answered for me.
To me it's clear that us fans all seem to have different opinions on what elite is.
An elite fighter to me is one of the best in the business.
Pacquiao, Mayweather, Martinez, Marquez, etc to me are "elite" fighters.
Judah's not up there with them, never was.
Obviously other fans think that being world class means your elite, don't think i can agree with it though.
Ricky Hatton was world class who won world title in multiple divisions, etc but came up short against two "elite" fighters. World class operator yes....but elite no.
I guess it's your opinion on it though, keep voting folks.
Overall is he an elite fighter to you ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
His best win is over Cory Spinks.
He has lost to Mayweather, Tsyzu, Cotto, Clottey, Spinks, Baldomir.
Don't see how that can be elite imo.
Your definition of elite is more a definition of all time great imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
Floyd, Manny, Marquez will be first ballot Hall of Famers and are some of the very best fighters of our generation. The jury is still out on Martinez.
Elite to me means the very best , really dont think Judah comes into that class do you , good fighter but elite come on :D , got his butt creamed by every elite man he faced.
I pretty much agree with Pugilistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by MemphisWhat does Elite mean to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeH
Bilbo has already answered for me.
Right now Mayweather and Pac, maybe Martinez,Marquez and Bhop. Someone like Donaire will probably get there with more top drawer opposition.
If I had to put boxers in tiers id have Mayweather and Pac in a group at the top by themselves. To me they are elite and easily the best two boxers in the sport.
As i said in another thread, if we are to use words like elite, world class etc, there should be a unified defintion of it everyone can go by. As it is everyone has different opinions,
Does that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
When i rate fighters as elite, i rate them highly no doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboYour definition of elite is more a definition of all time great imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
Floyd, Manny, Marquez will be first ballot Hall of Famers and are some of the very best fighters of our generation. The jury is still out on Martinez.
Whilst I cant disagree with your logic I would just like to applaud you for the use of 'top drawer'Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeHI pretty much agree with Pugilistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by MemphisWhat does Elite mean to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeH
Bilbo has already answered for me.
Right now Mayweather and Pac, maybe Martinez,Marquez and Bhop. Someone like Donaire will probably get there with more top drawer opposition.
If I had to put boxers in tiers id have Mayweather and Pac in a group at the top by themselves. To me they are elite and easily the best two boxers in the sport.
As i said in another thread, if we are to use words like elite, world class etc, there should be a unified defintion of it everyone can go by. As it is everyone has different opinions,
Many people on here say top draw, annoys the fuck out of me ;D
I voted yes on the basis that elite increasingly means guys who are at the very top. I wouldn't consider Zab an elite fighter in boxing overall, but I'd argue that he is one of the elite 140lbers. Also having scanned the other thread, I got the impression that it was implied Judah wouldn't beat Khan because he wasn't elite, sort of implying that Khan himself is elite. Tbh I should have just voted for don't care
I can agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
You don't think he's elite but you think he's one of the better fighters at 1bea40 which i agree with.
Khan isn't elite by the way, not yet anyway. Maybe in the future.
Judah won't Khan because he's not elite. He won't beat Khan because he always fades and Khan is the better fighter at this point.
I don't very often say it myself, didn't realize I had to be honest. Rum's to blame. I'm not sure where I would put 'top draw' with all my talk of elite and world class so I've fucked myself over a little bit. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by MemphisWhilst I cant disagree with your logic I would just like to applaud you for the use of 'top drawer'Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeHI pretty much agree with Pugilistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by MemphisWhat does Elite mean to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeH
Bilbo has already answered for me.
Right now Mayweather and Pac, maybe Martinez,Marquez and Bhop. Someone like Donaire will probably get there with more top drawer opposition.
If I had to put boxers in tiers id have Mayweather and Pac in a group at the top by themselves. To me they are elite and easily the best two boxers in the sport.
As i said in another thread, if we are to use words like elite, world class etc, there should be a unified defintion of it everyone can go by. As it is everyone has different opinions,
Many people on here say top draw, annoys the fuck out of me ;D
No way... He has lost all major fights he has been in and returns to win a few against c level fighters only to lose again. Like Mayweather said before about him is that he is a front runner and then gases later on. Judah will lose again against Khan and he will be right back in our faces a few fights later against a Bradley or Maidana and lose again. I swear the man is only 32 but it seems he has been around this sport alot longer. He should try Morales or Barrera after his knockout loss to Khan. I'm curious to see the game plan Whitaker has for him when the bell rings.
Be sure to vote in the poll fellow posters :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jon09
Quote:
Originally Posted by PugilisticDoes that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.
I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.
Keep voting folks.
Give saddos your opinion. :)
^^ Now this is a sensible post.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by PugilisticDoes that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.
I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.
well i apologize for not explaining my opinion properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by PugilisticDoes that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.
I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.
I do think Judah is a worthy opponent for Khan and i do think he is one of the better fighters at 140 (possibly top 5) but i don't think he's elite.
Elite to me is one of the best fighters in the world. Judah doesn't fit that category which i'm sure you agree.
I don't like Boxrec for ratings. It's ratings are always odd. For example, It has Bute as the number 1 super middleweight when it clearly belongs to Ward. Hell Froch deserves it more than Bute does.
I'm glad we cleared up our different opinions on the meaning of "elite". :)
A rough definition of elite is 'The best or most skilled members of a group'. I look at the group as boxing as a whole, in which case, as I said, to me Zab isn't nor ever has been elite. You seem to look at is each group is each weightclass? (not saying that's the wrong way to look at it).Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by PugilisticDoes that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.
I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.
I don't disagree with any of that really. The Ring have Judah at 6 also.
Regarding the fight against Khan itself I expect Khan to beat him convincingly down the stretch.
I also don't like that he's being trained by Pernell Whittaker. When I saw that I just immediately thought of Micky Ward with Arturo Gatti.
I think Judah will wilt and give up around rounds 7 or 8 and then be content to just survive.
He will dangerous early though and he's clearly the best of all available opponents out there for Khan, would have much rather have been facing Tim Bradley.
I voted no, but don't really disagree with any of the posts in this thread. It all depends what you take elite to mean. Saying Judah is so at 140 though, is really only because there are no great fighters currently in the division, at least imo. For me an elite fighter should be a legitimate threat to anybody more or less their size. Judah was basically beaten out of the WW division, and the best guys he didn't fight would've been and still would be solid favourites over him. He's certainly not much smaller than pretty well anyone who has beaten him. Definetly think he's a good opponent for Khan though, but mainly because Khan has shown to be quite vulnerable.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I think Judah will be dangerous early as always. He will probably catch Khan with a good left hand a couple of times and rock him.
Judah will fade though and i see Khan taking over with his jab and workrate, maybe stopping him late, I see it most likely being a decision win for Khan though, like 9 rounds to 3.
I see it sort of going like Khan's fight against Paulie but with Judah having success early with southpaw stance and left hand.
I hope Tim Bradley is next also. I'm a Bradley fan so i wanna see it happen bad.
using "elite" to mean simply among the best in /around his weight class, I might be tempted to say yes considering if he could put forth one great performance, he might be able to take down anyone with a belt.
Taking into account some of the people he lost to or got gift decisions over, or who took him deeper than they should. I can't say yes anymore. Elite fighters don't lose to those guys or survive fighting those guys in that fashion. Everyone's got that scrub that will always give them problems. (let say we pencil in baldomir as that). There's still other fighters that raise question about Judah still having it anymore. Whats worse is that when you look at the things that follow the other questionable/poor performances, the only factor in common is Judah and his mush mouth father. (not fighting other southpaws, or in other countries, or draining himself down)... Based on that .. i have to say no. Even if he wins, he still wont be an elite fighter. If he wins, more people will still be talking about Kahn (good night/bad night? glass jaw/ lucky shot?) despite Judah supposedly rededicating himself and now having sweet pea in his corner... That says a lot about where Judah ranks among his peers.
He's a good win for elite fighters, zab will never reach the potential he has. Khan really doesn't have to do much. Sit there with your hands up and let zab beat himself. I'd give sweet pea a better chance.
OK, that helps. But one of the best in the business at a point in time or across time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
See THAT is a post that makes sense to me. Quantifying the question. This idea of elite raises another issue I see and that is often labling top 1% fighters as "average" or "B-level" or some such thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by PugilisticDoes that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.
I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.
The fact is the top 1% at ANYTHING is an exceptional performer (in that time period anyway). The problem of course is we almost never even mention, or are aware of, a truly mathematically average fighter. Heck almost everyone we talk about is a top 1% guy.
Dude bilbo is slowly growing to genius status in my book. Ha I feel like his posts are almost literally the exact same arguments and opinions that i would state.
That's very true of any sport though, and justifiably so. It's only due to the landscape of pro boxing that one might overstate the lines . You talk about anyone in MLS, the NFL, the NBA, you are talking more along the lines of the top .01% of guys who play proffessionaly. There are no average baseball players on the Yankees, it's just common sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiSee THAT is a post that makes sense to me. Quantifying the question. This idea of elite raises another issue I see and that is often labling top 1% fighters as "average" or "B-level" or some such thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by PugilisticDoes that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.
I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.
The fact is the top 1% at ANYTHING is an exceptional performer (in that time period anyway). The problem of course is we almost never even mention, or are aware of, a truly mathematically average fighter. Heck almost everyone we talk about is a top 1% guy.
Bingo!Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingThat's very true of any sport though, and justifiably so. It's only due to the landscape of pro boxing that one might overstate the lines . You talk about anyone in MLS, the NFL, the NBA, you are talking more along the lines of the top .01% of guys who play proffessionaly. There are no average baseball players on the Yankees, it's just common sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiSee THAT is a post that makes sense to me. Quantifying the question. This idea of elite raises another issue I see and that is often labling top 1% fighters as "average" or "B-level" or some such thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by PugilisticDoes that make Glen Johnson elite then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean he fought most of the best fighters from Middleweight (Hopkins) to Light Heavyweight (Jones). He won titles at light heavyweight, was even the man at light heavyweight for short time. Lost alot more against the best than he won though.
Zab fought the best fighters no doubt but he never beat them. I don't see how fighting those guys make him elite.
Well no Johnson falls just short because he lost his world title bid. If he had got the decison over Froch and was therefore one of the belt holders and top guys in the weight class then sure.
I'm not sure exactly what the point is you are getting at. If you are saying that Zab isn't in your opinion one of the very best p4p fighters in the world right now, then yes I agree one hundred percent, but if you are saying that you think he is a weak opponent for Amir Khan (as I took the thread to mean) then I totally disagree. He's a top level fighter, holds a belt, has only ever lost to the best (disputed Baldo loss withstanding) and is very dangerous on his best form.
I believe Zab is justifiable a top 5 fighter in the world at light welter, which to me means he's pretty elite.
Boxrec rates him at 5 out of 1440 in that weight class. That's top 0.03% of the talent pool ahead of 99.97 others so for me he's pretty elite.
The fact is the top 1% at ANYTHING is an exceptional performer (in that time period anyway). The problem of course is we almost never even mention, or are aware of, a truly mathematically average fighter. Heck almost everyone we talk about is a top 1% guy.
Zab Judah is the classic example of overrated. He has never won a really meaningful fight. I guess his best win was over Spinks and I'm not sure what that really says. He has never beat the man in his division. Since his foray back into the junior welterweight division, he's beat Mabuza and Matthysse, and the win against Matthysse was questionable, but a win nonetheless.
Is he elite as far as professional boxers all over the world? Certainly. However, is he elite, in the way the a lay person thinks of elite when considering boxing - "top of the game," "a true talent," "a beast," "p4p" etc. - no, he isn't. Is he a good opponent for Khan given Bradley isn't available? Yes, completely. Do I think Zab beats any of the top guys at 140? No. Yet, he has a puncher's chance in the first 5 or so rounds, which will make it somewhat interesting. I'm not a huge Khan fan, but I think Khan dominates this one.
Spinks was the man in the division when he beat him. You may not rate him but after the fight he was the uinfied, undisputed, lineal and Ring champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Zab is a legit threat at 140. He already holds a close win (disputed) over Matthyse, who proved against Alexander that he is certainly one of the top guys in the weight class. There are only two guys in the division I think are better than Zab, Bradley and Khan. I'd give him an excellent chance over Maidana, Alexander, Morales and Kotelnik. He'd get beat by Gurrero or Marquez if they moved up though, although he'd be a better opponent at 140 than Marquez has ever beat above super featherweight and would have a real chance of upsetting him imo.
Reminds me of Dylan's song "Don't think twice" where he says "goodbye is too fine a word, babe, so I'll just say fare thee well."
Elite is too fine a word for Judah despite all the fine tuning of the definition to try to make it fit. It soars. Judah ... does not.
I actually think Judah might well have beatem Marquez at any point in time, although I completely rate JMM as a better fighter overall, even still. After watching how little Marquez could do against Mayweather and having gone back and watched him fight Norwood I really think Marquez would be the one with a punchers chance against Zab, it's a baaad style matchup imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboSpinks was the man in the division when he beat him. You may not rate him but after the fight he was the uinfied, undisputed, lineal and Ring champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Zab is a legit threat at 140. He already holds a close win (disputed) over Matthyse, who proved against Alexander that he is certainly one of the top guys in the weight class. There are only two guys in the division I think are better than Zab, Bradley and Khan. I'd give him an excellent chance over Maidana, Alexander, Morales and Kotelnik. He'd get beat by Gurrero or Marquez if they moved up though, although he'd be a better opponent at 140 than Marquez has ever beat above super featherweight and would have a real chance of upsetting him imo.
Can I create my own option... Here it is.
[x] This is a joke right?