Floyd's competition vs Manny's competition

The perception seems to be that, when you're talking about the competition each guy has faced, Manny was a real man who fought nothing but the best and Floyd was the guy who meticulously cherry picked easily opponents. A lot of people still believe Pac was the better fighter because he fought much better opposition.

Can someone explain that to me?

DLH - a guy Floyd beat a year prior. Forced to drain himself down to a weigh class he hadn't fought at in 7 or 8 years prior to that fight.

Ricky Hatton - Great win but another Floyd leftover who's camp seemed to be in turmoil and had broke off with his long time trainer.

Cotto - great win, but came at a time when Cotto's stock had fallen greatly after being physically destroyed by Marg and was coming off a controversial split decision win over Clottey where he looked terrible.

Clottely - Tough fighter but actually coming off of the loss to Cotto.

Marg - newly off of his suspension after being absolutely destroyed by Mosley. Shane Mosley leftover

Shane Mosley - Floyd leftover coming off a dominating loss to Floyd and a draw where he looked like absolute shit against Sergio Mora of all people.

JMM - Great fighter, but obviously it has to be noted that JMM is a guy who gave Pac absolute fits and knocked him unconscious, whereas Floyd pitched a virtual shutout against him and made JMM look like an amateur (the only person to have done that)

Tim Bradley - nothing to complain about here. Manny fought the undefeated, crafty Bradley twice and won twice (despite what the judges said the first time). Great wins.

Brandon Rios - Blown up 135lber coming off a loss to Alvarado. Pointless fight.

Chris Algeri - Virtual unknown until a SD win over Provodnikov. Tall with long reach, but seemingly no power. I think most boxing fans are in agreement that this is a pretty uninteresting fight.



Am I being unfair to Manny? I'm not saying that these fights meant nothing because for the most part they were fought against very tough fighters. But once you get past the fact that Manny was fighting larger guys (something Floyd has done every time out), how come we don't scrutinize Manny's competition like we do Floyd's?

I think both guys competition is very comparable.There are a huge raft of shared opponents but Manny's wins have often seemed more emphatic. Horses for courses, very different styles, personalities and fighters are Floyd and Manny. I don't think one is emphatically better than the other in reality, but Manny is easier for the non boxing anorak to appreciate.

When Manny beat Cotto and in the way that he beat him, he made a believer out of me!

manny was superb against margarito too

alright you could argue all day about the stage of his carear marg was at but he was completely outclassed and battered by a much smaller opponent

floyd is impressive in the way he seems to be unbeatable, but he doesnt have the impressive wins as in manor of victory that manny has in my opinion

i dunno about now, but a few years ago it would have been a fantastic fight in terms of magnitude and a very difficult fight to predict

You are definitely being biased against Manny and not putting into context when the wins occurred. Manny's top wins:
JMM: Not the blown up lightweight that Floyd beat at 147, Manny fought the prime counter puncher at a weight that suited both. He fought him multiple times in JMM prime, while he was rated P4P. JMM is a HOFer easy.
Barrera: Coming off of a dominating win of Hamed and close win over Morales, he was P4P top 5 and a HUGE favorite to win. Pac destroyed him during his peak and at his best weight. HOFer.
Morales: P4P ranked when they fought the first time, Manny lost a close decision but came back to destroy him twice. Another HOF fighter Pac fought during his prime.
Cotto: One loss to Margo, a much bigger man and still viewed as in his prime and dangerous. This is a very underrated win, especially considering how Pac stopped him. HOFer.
Bradley: Ranked P4P #3 at the time and undefeated. Manny beat him twice (don't care what the judges said) during Bradley's prime.
Hatton: lesser version than the one Floyd beat, but one look at that fight n u can see it wouldn't have mattered. Manny destroys Hatton any time they fight like that.

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

You are definitely being biased against Manny and not putting into context when the wins occurred. Manny's top wins:
JMM: Not the blown up lightweight that Floyd beat at 147, Manny fought the prime counter puncher at a weight that suited both. He fought him multiple times in JMM prime, while he was rated P4P. JMM is a HOFer easy.
Barrera: Coming off of a dominating win of Hamed and close win over Morales, he was P4P top 5 and a HUGE favorite to win. Pac destroyed him during his peak and at his best weight. HOFer.
Morales: P4P ranked when they fought the first time, Manny lost a close decision but came back to destroy him twice. Another HOF fighter Pac fought during his prime.
Cotto: One loss to Margo, a much bigger man and still viewed as in his prime and dangerous. This is a very underrated win, especially considering how Pac stopped him. HOFer.
Bradley: Ranked P4P #3 at the time and undefeated. Manny beat him twice (don't care what the judges said) during Bradley's prime.
Hatton: lesser version than the one Floyd beat, but one look at that fight n u can see it wouldn't have mattered. Manny destroys Hatton any time they fight like that.

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dont get carried away

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

You are definitely being biased against Manny and not putting into context when the wins occurred. Manny's top wins:
JMM: Not the blown up lightweight that Floyd beat at 147, Manny fought the prime counter puncher at a weight that suited both. He fought him multiple times in JMM prime, while he was rated P4P. JMM is a HOFer easy.
Barrera: Coming off of a dominating win of Hamed and close win over Morales, he was P4P top 5 and a HUGE favorite to win. Pac destroyed him during his peak and at his best weight. HOFer.
Morales: P4P ranked when they fought the first time, Manny lost a close decision but came back to destroy him twice. Another HOF fighter Pac fought during his prime.
Cotto: One loss to Margo, a much bigger man and still viewed as in his prime and dangerous. This is a very underrated win, especially considering how Pac stopped him. HOFer.
Bradley: Ranked P4P #3 at the time and undefeated. Manny beat him twice (don't care what the judges said) during Bradley's prime.
Hatton: lesser version than the one Floyd beat, but one look at that fight n u can see it wouldn't have mattered. Manny destroys Hatton any time they fight like that.

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JMM fought Floyd at WW, weighing 142, and got completely dominated. JMM fought Manny twice at WW, weighing 142 and 143, in which he was robbed in the first fight and knocked Manny spark out in the second.

People talk about how JMM was so small when he fought Floyd and then magically grew into a true WW when he fought Pac. No, he weighed the same when he fought Pac twice as he did when he fought Floyd. Explain to me the difference.

As far as Barrera goes, yup great win that I have absolutely no problem with. Cotto was always dangerous but what I said still stands: his stock had dropped considerably after getting destroyed by Margarito and then looking very mediocre vs Clottey. That's not my opinion, that's just a fact. Morales was a great win (but Morales also outboxed Manny in the first fight).

Manny had a HOF career before he even got to Floyd's competition. When it comes to common opponents, whatever the excuses, Manny beat them in a more emphatic manner.

Floyd wins

Oscar - SD
Marquez - UD
Shane - UD
Hatton - TKO 10
Cotto - UD


Manny wins

Oscar - TKO 8
Marquez - PTS x 2
Shane - UD
Hatton - KO 2
Cotto - TKO 12

Take out Marquez and Manny has barely lost a round against these guys.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Manny had a HOF career before he even got to Floyd's competition. When it comes to common opponents, whatever the excuses, Manny beat them in a more emphatic manner.

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That's true, but Floyd had a HOF career before Manny too. Floyd and Manny are two ATGs, no one could deny that.

But in terms of overall competition, neither is head and shoulders above the other.

Floyd had a big career before Manny but not as big. Manny was part of a thrilling rivalry with future hall of famers - Barrera, Morales and Marquez whilst Floyd, after struggling with Castillo, went off the radar a bit. It wasn't until he got his breakout fight with Gatti that his stardom started to snowball.

They are both great fighters to me, both have great records.

I think history will look more favourably on Pac though.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

You are definitely being biased against Manny and not putting into context when the wins occurred. Manny's top wins:
JMM: Not the blown up lightweight that Floyd beat at 147, Manny fought the prime counter puncher at a weight that suited both. He fought him multiple times in JMM prime, while he was rated P4P. JMM is a HOFer easy.
Barrera: Coming off of a dominating win of Hamed and close win over Morales, he was P4P top 5 and a HUGE favorite to win. Pac destroyed him during his peak and at his best weight. HOFer.
Morales: P4P ranked when they fought the first time, Manny lost a close decision but came back to destroy him twice. Another HOF fighter Pac fought during his prime.
Cotto: One loss to Margo, a much bigger man and still viewed as in his prime and dangerous. This is a very underrated win, especially considering how Pac stopped him. HOFer.
Bradley: Ranked P4P #3 at the time and undefeated. Manny beat him twice (don't care what the judges said) during Bradley's prime.
Hatton: lesser version than the one Floyd beat, but one look at that fight n u can see it wouldn't have mattered. Manny destroys Hatton any time they fight like that.

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JMM fought Floyd at WW, weighing 142, and got completely dominated. JMM fought Manny twice at WW, weighing 142 and 143, in which he was robbed in the first fight and knocked Manny spark out in the second.

People talk about how JMM was so small when he fought Floyd and then magically grew into a true WW when he fought Pac. No, he weighed the same when he fought Pac twice as he did when he fought Floyd. Explain to me the difference.

As far as Barrera goes, yup great win that I have absolutely no problem with. Cotto was always dangerous but what I said still stands: his stock had dropped considerably after getting destroyed by Margarito and then looking very mediocre vs Clottey. That's not my opinion, that's just a fact. Morales was a great win (but Morales also outboxed Manny in the first fight).

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How bout that Marquez had to jump up two weight classes just for Floyd to not even attempt to make weight and just paid the fine. Floyd is not the same size of Marquez or Pac ( who are both small at 147). Dont be so quick to discredit Pacs win against Oscar cause he had to go down but praise Floyd for making Marquez move up two. Plus dont forget that Pac jumped up two weight classes to fight de la Hoya it was a big risk for him too.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

You are definitely being biased against Manny and not putting into context when the wins occurred. Manny's top wins:
JMM: Not the blown up lightweight that Floyd beat at 147, Manny fought the prime counter puncher at a weight that suited both. He fought him multiple times in JMM prime, while he was rated P4P. JMM is a HOFer easy.
Barrera: Coming off of a dominating win of Hamed and close win over Morales, he was P4P top 5 and a HUGE favorite to win. Pac destroyed him during his peak and at his best weight. HOFer.
Morales: P4P ranked when they fought the first time, Manny lost a close decision but came back to destroy him twice. Another HOF fighter Pac fought during his prime.
Cotto: One loss to Margo, a much bigger man and still viewed as in his prime and dangerous. This is a very underrated win, especially considering how Pac stopped him. HOFer.
Bradley: Ranked P4P #3 at the time and undefeated. Manny beat him twice (don't care what the judges said) during Bradley's prime.
Hatton: lesser version than the one Floyd beat, but one look at that fight n u can see it wouldn't have mattered. Manny destroys Hatton any time they fight like that.

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JMM fought Floyd at WW, weighing 142, and got completely dominated. JMM fought Manny twice at WW, weighing 142 and 143, in which he was robbed in the first fight and knocked Manny spark out in the second.

People talk about how JMM was so small when he fought Floyd and then magically grew into a true WW when he fought Pac. No, he weighed the same when he fought Pac twice as he did when he fought Floyd. Explain to me the difference.

As far as Barrera goes, yup great win that I have absolutely no problem with. Cotto was always dangerous but what I said still stands: his stock had dropped considerably after getting destroyed by Margarito and then looking very mediocre vs Clottey. That's not my opinion, that's just a fact. Morales was a great win (but Morales also outboxed Manny in the first fight).

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JMM didn't magically grow into ww, he matured and put muscle on to grow into the weight. Watch his fight vs Floyd n then last fight vs Manny. Night n day difference in size and density. Add to the fact that Floyd didn't meet the contractual weight by a couple of pounds, n it was a couple of guys from two different weight classes fighting. I always have said the Manny is a smaller man than Floyd. Much smaller. Floyd is a big 140 pounder and Manny is a 135 pounder. He started as a flyweight, and even though he was young he is only like 5'5" or 5'6".

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Originally Posted by Maravilla2012

How bout that Marquez had to jump up two weight classes just for Floyd to not even attempt to make weight and just paid the fine. Floyd is not the same size of Marquez or Pac ( who are both small at 147). Dont be so quick to discredit Pacs win against Oscar cause he had to go down but praise Floyd for making Marquez move up two. Plus dont forget that Pac jumped up two weight classes to fight de la Hoya it was a big risk for him too.

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Floyd not making weight was unprofessional for sure. He only missed it by two pounds but still unprofessional.

But Marquez also jumped 2 divisions to fight Pac at 147 too, and beat his ass twice, so how is it different? The JMM who fought Floyd at WW was the exact same size as the JMM who fought Pac at WW (and was two years younger as well).

And Floyd is a small 147lber. On fight night he is consistently outweighed by 10-20lbs by his opponents.

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Originally Posted by Maravilla2012

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

You are definitely being biased against Manny and not putting into context when the wins occurred. Manny's top wins:
JMM: Not the blown up lightweight that Floyd beat at 147, Manny fought the prime counter puncher at a weight that suited both. He fought him multiple times in JMM prime, while he was rated P4P. JMM is a HOFer easy.
Barrera: Coming off of a dominating win of Hamed and close win over Morales, he was P4P top 5 and a HUGE favorite to win. Pac destroyed him during his peak and at his best weight. HOFer.
Morales: P4P ranked when they fought the first time, Manny lost a close decision but came back to destroy him twice. Another HOF fighter Pac fought during his prime.
Cotto: One loss to Margo, a much bigger man and still viewed as in his prime and dangerous. This is a very underrated win, especially considering how Pac stopped him. HOFer.
Bradley: Ranked P4P #3 at the time and undefeated. Manny beat him twice (don't care what the judges said) during Bradley's prime.
Hatton: lesser version than the one Floyd beat, but one look at that fight n u can see it wouldn't have mattered. Manny destroys Hatton any time they fight like that.

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JMM fought Floyd at WW, weighing 142, and got completely dominated. JMM fought Manny twice at WW, weighing 142 and 143, in which he was robbed in the first fight and knocked Manny spark out in the second.

People talk about how JMM was so small when he fought Floyd and then magically grew into a true WW when he fought Pac. No, he weighed the same when he fought Pac twice as he did when he fought Floyd. Explain to me the difference.

As far as Barrera goes, yup great win that I have absolutely no problem with. Cotto was always dangerous but what I said still stands: his stock had dropped considerably after getting destroyed by Margarito and then looking very mediocre vs Clottey. That's not my opinion, that's just a fact. Morales was a great win (but Morales also outboxed Manny in the first fight).

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How bout that Marquez had to jump up two weight classes just for Floyd to not even attempt to make weight and just paid the fine. Floyd is not the same size of Marquez or Pac ( who are both small at 147). Dont be so quick to discredit Pacs win against Oscar cause he had to go down but praise Floyd for making Marquez move up two. Plus dont forget that Pac jumped up two weight classes to fight de la Hoya it was a big risk for him too.

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Exactly. It's not even close. Floyd has fought good opposition and no one is saying that Floyd ducked everyone and fought all bums like the OP was suggesting, but Manny has taken on consistently better opposition and pushed himself more. History will favor pack more, even though he has more losses and wasn't the all around complete package that Floyd is.

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

JMM didn't magically grow into ww, he matured and put muscle on to grow into the weight. Watch his fight vs Floyd n then last fight vs Manny. Night n day difference in size and density. Add to the fact that Floyd didn't meet the contractual weight by a couple of pounds, n it was a couple of guys from two different weight classes fighting. I always have said the Manny is a smaller man than Floyd. Much smaller. Floyd is a big 140 pounder and Manny is a 135 pounder. He started as a flyweight, and even though he was young he is only like 5'5" or 5'6".

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JMM physically matured... at 37? Come on, man. And like I said, the JMM who fought Floyd weighed in the exact same as the JMM who fought Pac two years later: 142lbs (143lbs for the 4th Pac fight), so I have no idea what you're talking about in terms of a "night and day" size difference.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

I think history will look more favourably on Pac though.

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I'm not sure what would make anyone think that.

I don't see any real difference in level of opposition, and nobody has really explained to me why Pac's opposition was any better.

Floyd has surpassed Pac in every category you could think of, besides likeability.

If both retired tomorrow, we've seen Pac beaten and/or knocked out in every stage of his career, whereas Floyd has never lost. Floyd was the bigger star, the bigger draw, made a lot more money and has never had a true equal in the ring.

Pac beat up a prime Barrera and beat (and lost to) a Morales that was close to the end of his rope. That puts him head and shoulders above Floyd? I just can't see it.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

JMM didn't magically grow into ww, he matured and put muscle on to grow into the weight. Watch his fight vs Floyd n then last fight vs Manny. Night n day difference in size and density. Add to the fact that Floyd didn't meet the contractual weight by a couple of pounds, n it was a couple of guys from two different weight classes fighting. I always have said the Manny is a smaller man than Floyd. Much smaller. Floyd is a big 140 pounder and Manny is a 135 pounder. He started as a flyweight, and even though he was young he is only like 5'5" or 5'6".

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JMM physically matured... at 37? Come on, man. And like I said, the JMM who fought Floyd weighed in the exact same as the JMM who fought Pac two years later: 142lbs (143lbs for the 4th Pac fight), so I have no idea what you're talking about in terms of a "night and day" size difference.

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Look at the density of his build in both fights. He was much larger in the Manny fight. Not even debatable. And yes, once u stop running and making a conscious effort to keep ur weight down, u can actually fill out and mature into a larger, more muscular person. Weight training and different training habits benefitted JMM carrying the extra weight.

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

Look at the density of his build in both fights. He was much larger in the Manny fight. Not even debatable. And yes, once u stop running and making a conscious effort to keep ur weight down, u can actually fill out and mature into a larger, more muscular person. Weight training and different training habits benefitted JMM carrying the extra weight.

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There's no doubt that he was leaner and more cut in the Manny fights, but to say that it was night and day, or that it was somehow significant I think is really grasping at straws.

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/F...csryU2jsOl.jpg

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/M...8r17u70UOl.jpg

Here's the "night and day", "MUCH BIGGER" difference you're talking about.

Definitely more cut in the Manny pics, but you're going to tell me that that's a completely different guy? Come on dude.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Fenster

I think history will look more favourably on Pac though.

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I'm not sure what would make anyone think that.

I don't see any real difference in level of opposition, and nobody has really explained to me why Pac's opposition was any better.

Floyd has surpassed Pac in every category you could think of, besides likeability.

If both retired tomorrow, we've seen Pac beaten and/or knocked out in every stage of his career, whereas Floyd has never lost. Floyd was the bigger star, the bigger draw, made a lot more money and has never had a true equal in the ring.

Pac beat up a prime Barrera and beat (and lost to) a Morales that was close to the end of his rope. That puts him head and shoulders above Floyd? I just can't see it.

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I already went down the list buddy. Floyd's top wins r Chico, Hatton and Castillo. All three were prime, Chico n Hatton P4P, Castillo wasn't ranked P4P when they fought and he should have won the first fight vs Floyd. So, Manny has taken on better competition at every stage of his career, and when u do that u end up with losses. I'm writing this on my phone so when I get home tonight I will gladly write a more inclusive and detailed break down. Bottom Line: Floyd fought two guys ranked P4P at the time he fought them. Manny fought multiple guys who I listed ranked when he fought them. He also fought much bigger men who were favorites to beat him at the time of the fight. If u can't see it, nothing is going to change ur mind. U just want to feel Floyd fought better guys.

I think in the OP you are being totally unfair to Manny. You have to really stretch to so dismiss his opposition so readily and then minimise his achievements. Your are weighting your response to compensate for what you think is a slight against Floyd.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

I think in the OP you are being totally unfair to Manny. You have to really stretch to so dismiss his opposition so readily and then minimise his achievements.

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Fair enough, what in particular was unfair in what I said?

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

I'm writing this on my phone so when I get home tonight I will gladly write a more inclusive and detailed break down. Bottom Line: Floyd fought two guys ranked P4P at the time he fought them. Manny fought multiple guys who I listed ranked when he fought them. He also fought much bigger men who were favorites to beat him at the time of the fight.

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Well I look forward to your breakdown.

I think you're wrong that Floyd only fought two guys ranked p4p at the time he fought them. I think you might be surprised.

People dog Floyd for fighting Mosley, but did you know that he was the #2 ranked WW at the time and the #3 ranked p4p of the time by Ring magazine (behind only Pac and Floyd)?

The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 2009 - BoxRec

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

I'm writing this on my phone so when I get home tonight I will gladly write a more inclusive and detailed break down. Bottom Line: Floyd fought two guys ranked P4P at the time he fought them. Manny fought multiple guys who I listed ranked when he fought them. He also fought much bigger men who were favorites to beat him at the time of the fight.

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Well I look forward to your breakdown.

I think you're wrong that Floyd only fought two guys ranked p4p at the time he fought them. I think you might be surprised.

People dog Floyd for fighting Mosley, but did you know that he was the #2 ranked WW at the time and the #3 ranked p4p of the time by Ring magazine (behind only Pac and Floyd)?

The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 2009 - BoxRec

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Did not remember that Shane was ranked P4P #3 at that time, good catch! Still, Even including Shane who is a HOFer, Manny beat and fought more top ranked guys during their prime. I will break it down later. Good catch, I tip my hat to u.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Fenster

I think history will look more favourably on Pac though.

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Floyd was the bigger star, the bigger draw, made a lot more money and has never had a true equal in the ring.

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You started the thread by discussing the quality of their opponents, at the time they faced them, but are now making the point that Floyd is superior because he made more money (lol).

Leonard was a bigger star, bigger draw and made more money than Duran but he's not rated higher than him on any serious historian/fan all-time great list.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

I think in the OP you are being totally unfair to Manny. You have to really stretch to so dismiss his opposition so readily and then minimise his achievements.

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Fair enough, what in particular was unfair in what I said?

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The term "Floyd leftover" is highly pejorative. He did not finish them or make the job any easier for Manny. In many cases Manny did what Floyd could not.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

You started the thread by discussing the quality of their opponents, at the time they faced them, but are now making the point that Floyd is superior because he made more money (lol).

Leonard was a bigger star, bigger draw and made more money than Duran but he's not rated higher than him on any serious historian/fan all-time great list.

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No, that was a separate discussion that we were having that diverted from the main topic. If you want to really talk about making irrelevant points, we could talk about how I started a thread about who faced a higher quality of opposition, to which you responded by talking about who did better against the common opponents they faced (lol).

Leonard for sure was a bigger fighter than Duran and deserved to be ranked higher.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

I think in the OP you are being totally unfair to Manny. You have to really stretch to so dismiss his opposition so readily and then minimise his achievements.

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Fair enough, what in particular was unfair in what I said?

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The term "Floyd leftover" is highly pejorative. He did not finish them or make the job any easier for Manny. In many cases Manny did what Floyd could not.

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Well what I meant by "leftovers" is that Floyd beat them first. The significance of a win against a certain fighter varies on when the win happened in that fighter's career: a win over Ali in 1971 means more than Ali in 1979, ect.

So when I say that Hatton is a Floyd leftover, it's not to say that a win over Hatton is meaningless, but for FLoyd to beat a 43-0 Hatton at the pinnacle of his career means more than Pac's win over a Ricky Hatton who had been beaten and had been shuffling around with different trainers and at the end of his rope.

Great win, but Floyd was there first.

Without Cortez or blinkers on though Mannys win is Far more impressive. By a country mile. Scared the krap out of me. Even though against Floyd was his first KO I wasn't worried for his welfare like against Manny.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Manny had a HOF career before he even got to Floyd's competition. When it comes to common opponents, whatever the excuses, Manny beat them in a more emphatic manner.

Floyd wins

Oscar - SD
Marquez - UD
Shane - UD
Hatton - TKO 10
Cotto - UD


Manny wins

Oscar - TKO 8
Marquez - PTS x 2
Shane - UD
Hatton - KO 2
Cotto - TKO 12

Take out Marquez and Manny has barely lost a round against these guys.

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What if we take steroids and other PEDs out of the equation...?

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Originally Posted by ruthless rocco

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Manny had a HOF career before he even got to Floyd's competition. When it comes to common opponents, whatever the excuses, Manny beat them in a more emphatic manner.

Floyd wins

Oscar - SD
Marquez - UD
Shane - UD
Hatton - TKO 10
Cotto - UD


Manny wins

Oscar - TKO 8
Marquez - PTS x 2
Shane - UD
Hatton - KO 2
Cotto - TKO 12

Take out Marquez and Manny has barely lost a round against these guys.

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What if we take steroids and other PEDs out of the equation...?

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Don't think you should hold Floyds PED use against him

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Without Cortez or blinkers on though Mannys win is Far more impressive. By a country mile. Scared the krap out of me. Even though against Floyd was his first KO I wasn't worried for his welfare like against Manny.

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Well no doubt Manny's win was more violent and dominant.

Larry Holmes' win over Ali was more dominant than Frazier's, but we don't assign more value to Holmes for that.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Don't think you should hold Floyds PED use against him

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Floyd's hand injections aren't against the rules, though.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Fenster

You started the thread by discussing the quality of their opponents, at the time they faced them, but are now making the point that Floyd is superior because he made more money (lol).

Leonard was a bigger star, bigger draw and made more money than Duran but he's not rated higher than him on any serious historian/fan all-time great list.

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No, that was a separate discussion that we were having that diverted from the main topic. If you want to really talk about making irrelevant points, we could talk about how I started a thread about who faced a higher quality of opposition, to which you responded by talking about who did better against the common opponents they faced (lol).

Leonard for sure was a bigger fighter than Duran and deserved to be ranked higher.

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Hold up. Why did you mention their common opponents if they were irrelevant? You asked a question. If it's important to highlight that Floyd beat superior versions of these men then it's understandable that Manny beating them in a far more devastating fashion could sway people to believe he's the better fighter, right?

I then pointed out that Pac was in all-time great memorable battles with Marquez, Barrera and Morales before he ever became a possible rival to Floyd. Therefore looking at Pac's opposition outside of the common opponents, there's an argument that he's faced stronger competition, regardless of the fact he's been whopped.

Show me where Leonard is ranked higher than Duran by any reputable boxing publication/historian?

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Maravilla2012

How bout that Marquez had to jump up two weight classes just for Floyd to not even attempt to make weight and just paid the fine. Floyd is not the same size of Marquez or Pac ( who are both small at 147). Dont be so quick to discredit Pacs win against Oscar cause he had to go down but praise Floyd for making Marquez move up two. Plus dont forget that Pac jumped up two weight classes to fight de la Hoya it was a big risk for him too.

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Floyd not making weight was unprofessional for sure. He only missed it by two pounds but still unprofessional.

But Marquez also jumped 2 divisions to fight Pac at 147 too, and beat his ass twice, so how is it different? The JMM who fought Floyd at WW was the exact same size as the JMM who fought Pac at WW (and was two years younger as well).

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Timeline
In February 2009, JMM fought at 135 against Juan Diaz.

By 2009, Floyd had already fought as high as 154 and consistently had fought at 147 for a number of years.

In September 2009, Floyd fought JMM at a contracted weight of ten pounds heavier than JMM's last fight, at 145, and Floyd came in at 147 (by the way, not just unprofessional, also the small welterweight idea is put to rest or he would have come in at 145 if that were the case, as contracted- why pay $200,000 to come in 2 pounds higher if you're better at a lesser weight?), 12 pounds heavier than JMM's last fight. JMM jumped two weight classes to face Floyd.

In 2010, JMM went back down to lightweight to face Juan Diaz and Kastidis. 135.

In July 2011, he moves up in weight to face Likar Ramos at 140.

In November 2011, he moves up in weight again to face Pacquiao at 144 and comes in only 2 pounds heavier than his last fight. Barelly any fluctuation in weight between fights and it's been 1 year since he last fought at lightweight.

Therefore, he only moved up 4 pounds to face Pacquiao from his previous fight and fought him at almost the same weight he was in his fight before against Ramos. He also had one year to get comfortable fighting at 142 and had done it successfully against Ramos too.

For Floyd, he moved up 10 pounds from his fight before, and then faced Floyd at a 12 pounds difference.

After facing Pacquiao and losing in 2011, he fought a Russian at 140 and then went up only 2 pounds again to face Pacquiao for a fight at 147.

Bottom line: in the times he faced Pacquiao he didn't move around much in weight. His weight stayed stable, around the same before and after. When he faced Floyd he had moved up 10 pounds from his last fight and jumped two weight classes. Take that for whatever it is worth.

And the eye test, Marquez physically was a much different fighter when he faced Floyd than when he faced Manny. There's a meme out there that shows an entirely different physical appearance from Marquez 2009 and 2012. It's actually quite remarkable.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Maravilla2012

How bout that Marquez had to jump up two weight classes just for Floyd to not even attempt to make weight and just paid the fine. Floyd is not the same size of Marquez or Pac ( who are both small at 147). Dont be so quick to discredit Pacs win against Oscar cause he had to go down but praise Floyd for making Marquez move up two. Plus dont forget that Pac jumped up two weight classes to fight de la Hoya it was a big risk for him too.

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Floyd not making weight was unprofessional for sure. He only missed it by two pounds but still unprofessional.

But Marquez also jumped 2 divisions to fight Pac at 147 too, and beat his ass twice, so how is it different? The JMM who fought Floyd at WW was the exact same size as the JMM who fought Pac at WW (and was two years younger as well).

And Floyd is a small 147lber. On fight night he is consistently outweighed by 10-20lbs by his opponents.

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With respect to Hatton, I'm not sure which win I rank higher. Floyd beat him at 147 after Hatton had struggled with Collazo at that weight and at a weight class where I don't think Hatton was at his best. Manny beat Hatton at Hatton's best weight, BUT he beat him after Floyd beat him. Still Hatton had stopped Malignaggi in between Floyd beating him and Manny facing him at 140. Considering the devastating fashion that Manny beat him, and that Floyd lost a few rounds to Hatton in their match, all in all, it's close but I probably lean toward Manny's win over Hatton being ranked higher. Close though.

For Cotto, it's also close for me. No matter his win over Sergio recently, I've always considered Cotto best at welterweight and in the 2007/2008 ish years. I can't forget that Cotto literally lost every round against Austin Trout at 154. Manny got to Cotto first before Floyd and close to Cotto's prime. But, Manny got to Cotto after Margarito did his number on him and for what it's worth so did Floyd. Manny stopped Cotto and Floyd had a bit of trouble with Cotto. Again, probably lean Manny, but it's close.

Also, you can't have it both ways. Either Clottey is good and the Cotto win counts a lot or Clottey is bad and Cotto's win doesn't count for much. If he's good, it's impressive Manny shut him out. If he's bad, it shouldn't matter he was coming off a loss.

To me, I think styles make fights. Manny was so much faster than Clottey that Clottey couldn't afford to come out of his shell. Against Cotto, speed differential wasn't there and Clottey could fight more of his fight. It's a shame he wouldn't come out of his shell though to give it a shot.

Also, realize that when Manny faced Oscar, he was a -200 underdog. Most experts predicted Manny to lose that fight. Now when we look back Oscar seemed drained but at the time it was a risky fight to take. The risk factor at the time of the fight should probably be factored into how high it is ranked to an extent too.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Hold up. Why did you mention their common opponents if they were irrelevant? You asked a question. If it's important to highlight that Floyd beat superior versions of these men then it's understandable that Manny beating them in a far more devastating fashion could sway people to believe he's the better fighter, right?

I then pointed out that Pac was in all-time great memorable battles with Marquez, Barrera and Morales before he ever became a possible rival to Floyd. Therefore looking at Pac's opposition outside of the common opponents, there's an argument that he's faced stronger competition, regardless of the fact he's been whopped.

Show me where Leonard is ranked higher than Duran by any reputable boxing publication/historian?

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When determining the quality of opposition, it's important to look at the context. Larry Holmes beat the same guy in 1980 that Joe Frazier beat in 1971: they'd both answer to the name Muhammad Ali and a DNA test would conclude that they were the same person. But as boxing fans, we look at the context and understand that Frazier's win was of higher quality because Muhammad Ali was a better fighter in 1971 than he was in 1980. It's not just the name that counts.

So when I say something like "Manny fought Hatton after Floyd beat him", that's providing context to judge the quality of the wins. When Floyd beat Hatton, he was undefeated, ranked higher and held to a much higher esteem by boxing fans. When Pac beat him, he had been knocked out, had split with his long time trainer, and by all accounts his drug and alcohol addictions were getting worse. Still a fantastic win, but Mayweather's meant more. Mayweather took his 0. So in bringing that up, I was bringing up something relevant to determining the quality of opponent.

The question of who did better against a common opponent has no relevance to the quality of opposition faced. If Wlad fights Stiverne, David Haye and Andy Ruiz Jr next year and KO's them all, and I fight Stiverne, David Haye and Andy Ruiz Jr next year and get destroyed in 30 seconds by all of them, me and Wlad have fought the same quality level of opposition. I hope that clarifies.

And really I could give a fuck less how many people want to rate Duran - a guy who lost to all his best peers, got KTFO, quit because of a tummy ache, ect - over Leonard. People not knowing boxing isn't my problem.

Manny has the best Cotto win, he absolutely destroyed Cotto.

I'm not even touching the Hatton best weight argument, it's just too ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Also, you can't have it both ways. Either Clottey is good and the Cotto win counts a lot or Clottey is bad and Cotto's win doesn't count for much. If he's good, it's impressive Manny shut him out. If he's bad, it shouldn't matter he was coming off a loss.

To me, I think styles make fights. Manny was so much faster than Clottey that Clottey couldn't afford to come out of his shell. Against Cotto, speed differential wasn't there and Clottey could fight more of his fight. It's a shame he wouldn't come out of his shell though to give it a shot.

Also, realize that when Manny faced Oscar, he was a -200 underdog. Most experts predicted Manny to lose that fight. Now when we look back Oscar seemed drained but at the time it was a risky fight to take. The risk factor at the time of the fight should probably be factored into how high it is ranked to an extent too.

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I think Clottey is a hell of a fighter and I was impressed with his win, but the fact remained he was coming off of a loss.

Cotto is great but when he looked mediocre vs Clottey, a lot of people started questioning whether or not he was washed up.

You forget he came from lightweight and knocked out the champ.
DLH who volunteered to fight at welterweight so he was to blame and the fool. Pac Man wiped him out.
Ricky Hatton may have had a bad camp but Manny wiped him out at his weight.
Cotto was great win and performance.
Clottely beaten easily.
Marg was his most impressive performance against a much bigger man.
Then it started to go down in performance against Shane Mosley, JMM, Tim Bradley, Brandon Rios and probably Chris Algeri.
To be fair I do not argue who fought the better opposition as I do not care. What I do care is that they never fought one another 2009ish when Manny was awesome and Floyd used the excuse that he must be on drugs. Both of them are prats.