Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Bit harsh, Amat. Nameless has been making some very good points in this thread. I find an argument always goes out the window when you call people names and start telling them that they are being 'a dick'.
As for Gray Lion, yes, let him stay. He might turn out to be very interesting.
Sadly I doubt he will have much time to post on here, being busy with saving the earth from evil threats so the rest of us can continue to post.
He's probably gearing up for another mission as we speak.
He's rebuilding Chernobyl. With his bare hands.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Your friend Clayton is wrong. This isn't a human rights issue either, if kids felt threatened or singled out, JUST ONE KID, that's all the ammunition the principal needed. Unless this goes all the way to the supreme court and the law is interpreted differently then I am right. Seriously just stop, I'm just going to thank God you don't run any schools. Ask Clayton what precedent is, then tell him to look it up in this case. That is all. Seriously that is all. ONE KID, and you dont know what these kids were saying or doing, you just know the shirts they were wearing. It's obvious the statement they were trying to make, the dude was just trying to protect his students that's all. Can a mod ban me from this thread please? Seriously.
It's been established multiple times in court that students in school DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, always have the same first amendment rights as others outside of school. This is FACT. I'm capitalizing because you seem to be ignoring this point (1). I know the amendments and I know a lot of my freedoms, I knew in high school I did NOT retain ALL of my freedoms. THIS IS ALREADY ESTABLISHED, your friend Clayton certainly should have picked this up at some point if I have right? If he didn't know this then he's for sure not the sharpest lawyer. Either way, I'm not going to go and do any reading you told me to do, it's ridiculous (2). I'm not going to sit here and do what you do and say "go read this before talking to me", I'm (foolishly) assuming you are caught up on this and I don't need to direct you to any reading. BUT IF YOU WISH, I can very easily look up the supreme court cases that prove my points to be right. You're a very bizarre man, I knew that, now I know you're stubborn even if you aren't necessarily educated on whatever it is you're taking about. This stuff gets my blood pressure boiling, don't be such a dick.(3)
1) The freedom of speech, normally have an end when it is to spread hate (i.e nazism and such stuff). The kids there never sprouted any kind neither any form of racism in any way. I am quite versed into ethics/international ethics as I am more or less making my PHD on that issue, I am not just an ass who doesn't know what he's talking about, Amat. The only way the principal might have the right to put them out of school would have been if there was a strict law forbidding to wear any kind of Flags at all, otherwise, as it is far from a hate/racism gesture(and not a private school with uniforms), there is no way on earth they can prevent them from wearing their country flag in their own country. In such case, you cannot censor anything. Thus said, on a legal matter, I trust my friend a bit more than you, especially because your main argument seems to turn around the "stop being a dick" and "you're wrong" thing.
2) Refusing to read what I did point out (especially as it's not very long) is a clear sign of "wrong faith" showing you're more interested by being right to be right rather than exchange information and compare arguments.
3) I am not a Dick, you just dodged my points and your only argument, once again, is that I am angering you and that I am wrong and you right. You never answered the arguments I gave, you used the old sophist trick of the authoritarian position and the straw man sophism (consisting of trying to make your interlocutor look bad). I've been polite where you're insulting me and even saying that I am perhaps un-educated. Well, for a Canadian, I think it's quite good to know so much about your amendments in the US and how your constitution work when I am certain you don't know as much about the Canadian system, I think that speaking 4 languages, having 2 master degrees and perhaps a PHD (assuming I finish it and pass it) is quite a good proof that I can do something and that my acadamic baggage is decent, especially because, as MIles said, I made some valid points which you simply refuse to discuss or to look, I gave you examples with some celebrations here and up to where can go the notion of "disturbing for everyone" (i.e with the canadian flag example during a parade or the fighting irish shirt example).
Now, seeing how you react, I propose 2 things: 1) either we stop to talk about it because it angers you and because you do not seem willing to examine my arguments and starting to be a bit insulting where I do not want to start a stupid war with you because you seem to be a cool guy or 2) examine my arguments, what I did refer, give counter-arguments and we explore the thing together till we find a compromise or will agree to disagree.
I have no problems with both seriously, it,s all about the approach.
By the way, on the Yahoo forums (where peoples who do answer are normally very knowledgeable about the concerned facts) on that matter, consider that it was effectively legal, just so you know that some other knowledgeable peoples on that matter seem to say that I am not exactly wrong... not to say that I did hit the bulls eye: Is it illegal to wear an America flag on cinco de Mayo day? - Yahoo! Answers
Ps: IF I am strange for defending my opinions when they are backed by some facts, by an articulated answer when I had no valid counter argument thrown at me but a lot of insults and "I am right shut up" type of arguments, yeah, I guess that they do teach strange things in our language philosophy classes ;)
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
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Originally Posted by
ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nameless
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Lol Nameless how can you say my argument can't proceed when the principal already sided with me? Everything I said in that post is true, if I wore a shirt with the numbers 666 on it to my high school, I would have been asked to change it. Tinker Vs Des Moines, you made me look the fucken case up, that's the case that gives teachers and principals the right to make sure political statements don't interfere with the school's educational mission. That means it is the principal's JUDGEMENT. Don't tell me my argument can't proceed when you just keep regurgitating the same thing over and over.
à
Lol Amat (back), did you read the human right charts and the Us amendment chart? Because you never answered my arguments? Because it's not because the principal enforces it that it is correct to do so? (you know the difference between enforcing something and being legal and moral doing so, right?) I did ask my friend Clayton who's an american lawyer (living in the UK now) what he did think about it and he said that if the parents sue the school, they are almost certain to win because ( in his words) it is not a private school with uniforms and because wearing the flag wasn't proscribed by any law and didn't constitute an offense. The guy did so but he had no good reasons at all (same argument that it hasn't been disrespectful neither did it represent an offense to the mexican culture). Missy did sums it pretty well: they should have the right to wear it all the time or never period. As it was not a school law that does forbid flag, the dude was plain wrong.
Ahh but the kids were breaking the US Flag Code by wearing the t-shirts anyway. So there.
:p
Actually, the only illegal thing is to wear an American Flag on a pole, any iconery of the Flag is ok by the law so it's all good :)
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nameless
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nameless
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Lol Nameless how can you say my argument can't proceed when the principal already sided with me? Everything I said in that post is true, if I wore a shirt with the numbers 666 on it to my high school, I would have been asked to change it. Tinker Vs Des Moines, you made me look the fucken case up, that's the case that gives teachers and principals the right to make sure political statements don't interfere with the school's educational mission. That means it is the principal's JUDGEMENT. Don't tell me my argument can't proceed when you just keep regurgitating the same thing over and over.
à
Lol Amat (back), did you read the human right charts and the Us amendment chart? Because you never answered my arguments? Because it's not because the principal enforces it that it is correct to do so? (you know the difference between enforcing something and being legal and moral doing so, right?) I did ask my friend Clayton who's an american lawyer (living in the UK now) what he did think about it and he said that if the parents sue the school, they are almost certain to win because ( in his words) it is not a private school with uniforms and because wearing the flag wasn't proscribed by any law and didn't constitute an offense. The guy did so but he had no good reasons at all (same argument that it hasn't been disrespectful neither did it represent an offense to the mexican culture). Missy did sums it pretty well: they should have the right to wear it all the time or never period. As it was not a school law that does forbid flag, the dude was plain wrong.
Ahh but the kids were breaking the US Flag Code by wearing the t-shirts anyway. So there.
:p
Actually, the only illegal thing is to wear an American Flag on a pole, any iconery of the Flag is ok by the law so it's all good :)
How the hell are you going to wear an American flag on a pole? Anybody who manages that should be knighted, not punished.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
How the hell are you going to wear an American flag on a pole? Anybody who manages that should be knighted, not punished.
I believe Nameless was correcting you and trying to explain that it's ....well it's not "illegal" it's just uncouth/disrespectful to use the actual flag as anything other than a flag.
ono, I don't really think you understand the kind of resentment shit like this can build up in people. Right now this isn't a racist/ethnocentrist issue it's just a couple kids that got sent home from school for wearing something some moron at a school thought was inappropriate. In the future this could get the ball rolling on any number of bad ideas/acts. I don't think that the people in charge of sending the kids home thought very much about the repercussions of their actions.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu apprentice
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
How the hell are you going to wear an American flag on a pole? Anybody who manages that should be knighted, not punished.
I believe Nameless was correcting you and trying to explain that it's ....well it's not "illegal" it's just uncouth/disrespectful to use the actual flag as anything other than a flag.
ono, I don't really think you understand the kind of resentment shit like this can build up in people. Right now this isn't a racist/ethnocentrist issue it's just a couple kids that got sent home from school for wearing something some moron at a school thought was inappropriate. In the future this could get the ball rolling on any number of bad ideas/acts. I don't think that the people in charge of sending the kids home thought very much about the repercussions of their actions.
We're quite clearly on different ends of the spectrum. They were sent home to prevent a situation between the Hispanic kids and the American kids. Nothing more, nothing less.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Fucking hell this thread is getting old now
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Fucking hell this thread is getting old now
Exactly my thoughts.
This is a situation where a mountain has been made out of a mole hill!
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
We're quite clearly on different ends of the spectrum. They were sent home to prevent a situation between the Hispanic kids and the American kids. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yes we apparently ARE on different ends of the spectrum....children at a SCHOOL (a place of learning and understanding) were discriminated against because something "might" have happened.
In AMERICA (apparently unlike in England) the rule of the majority is the law of the land however the rights and liberties of the minorities are respected. And in the case of these children the majority was FORCED to acquiesce because something (that's the symbol of the country this happened in) may have been PERCEIVED as inflamatory and that is RIDICULOUS and for you not to see that is outright shocking.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nameless
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nameless
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
Lol Nameless how can you say my argument can't proceed when the principal already sided with me? Everything I said in that post is true, if I wore a shirt with the numbers 666 on it to my high school, I would have been asked to change it. Tinker Vs Des Moines, you made me look the fucken case up, that's the case that gives teachers and principals the right to make sure political statements don't interfere with the school's educational mission. That means it is the principal's JUDGEMENT. Don't tell me my argument can't proceed when you just keep regurgitating the same thing over and over.
à
Lol Amat (back), did you read the human right charts and the Us amendment chart? Because you never answered my arguments? Because it's not because the principal enforces it that it is correct to do so? (you know the difference between enforcing something and being legal and moral doing so, right?) I did ask my friend Clayton who's an american lawyer (living in the UK now) what he did think about it and he said that if the parents sue the school, they are almost certain to win because ( in his words) it is not a private school with uniforms and because wearing the flag wasn't proscribed by any law and didn't constitute an offense. The guy did so but he had no good reasons at all (same argument that it hasn't been disrespectful neither did it represent an offense to the mexican culture). Missy did sums it pretty well: they should have the right to wear it all the time or never period. As it was not a school law that does forbid flag, the dude was plain wrong.
Ahh but the kids were breaking the US Flag Code by wearing the t-shirts anyway. So there.
:p
Actually, the only illegal thing is to wear an American Flag on a pole, any iconery of the Flag is ok by the law so it's all good :)
How the hell are you going to wear an American flag on a pole? Anybody who manages that should be knighted, not punished.
I did mean to bear and not to wear. Other that if you do bring a flag on a pole, no icon of a flag on a shirt or other are forbidden in school.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu apprentice
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
We're quite clearly on different ends of the spectrum. They were sent home to prevent a situation between the Hispanic kids and the American kids. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yes we apparently ARE on different ends of the spectrum....children at a SCHOOL (a place of learning and understanding) were discriminated against because something "might" have happened.
In AMERICA (apparently unlike in England) the rule of the majority is the law of the land however the rights and liberties of the minorities are respected. And in the case of these children the majority was FORCED to acquiesce because something (that's the symbol of the country this happened in) may have been PERCEIVED as inflamatory and that is RIDICULOUS and for you not to see that is outright shocking.
Do you not believe the kids were wearing the t-shirts to provoke or send out a message to the Mexican kids at the school?
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
I wonder what the Grey Lion's thoughts are on these new developments...
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
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Originally Posted by
CFH
I wonder what the Grey Lion's thoughts are on these new developments...
He's not back from Chernobyl yet...
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Do you not believe the kids were wearing the t-shirts to provoke or send out a message to the Mexican kids at the school?
No and nothing has been reported to my knowledge to support such a line of thought. Could it have been the case? Sure but then it wouldn't have been about sending the kids home for wearing American flag apparel but for being disruptive in attitude or behavior and that is more acceptable to me if that is the case but I have heard/read/seen nothing to support that what I described was actually the case.
Also Cinco de Mayo is not an American holiday and I find that since it's apparently being celebrated in American schools it shows that we're trying to be inclusive. The American culture has been a lot more inclusive in recent years look at New York we have the Puerto Rican Day parade, St. Paddy's Day Parade, etc.....we're a melting pot and the key to that is that the groups that moved here in the past have assimilated into society, lots of Mexicans would rather be Mexican than be considered American or Mexican-American.
I just think that certain groups are trying to be so PC that average Americans have no say, are able to support nothing, and are able to do nothing but acquiesce to special intrest groups and that's bullshit
