Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hitmandonny
Marciano wa mixing the ams and pros.
He had his pro debut and went back to the ams, then went pro again.
He was topped in the amateurs, after his first pro fight.
Whatever....Rocky's record is 49-0-0 that's the recognized record...if I ask any boxing fan what his record is then they would tell me 49-0-0 and not give me some answer like you did.
lambeth, you're new here but riddle me this....did Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, and Jack Dempsey not have to deal with virtually the same issues as Ali? And I know everyone is going to be like "Jack Dempsey what the fuck is he doing there?!?!" well Jack dodged World War I and it was a huge scandle. As for Johnson, he had the same attitude as Ali if not being more abrasive and he had virtually no support group like a NAACP or Nation of Islam or anything like that to back him up. Joe Louis was forced by management to counter Johnson's attitude (even if he wasn't anything like Jack in real life), so basically he had to act in every interview he ever had in his his hay-day.
I don't want this to be about politics or skin color or anything other than boxing. Ali was great, he beat great fighters, but Louis and Marciano are better in my opinion.....and I don't want anyone to take that the wrong way, I respect what Ali did...I just don't make this mythical figure out of him.
Rockys return to the amateurs after turning pro is pretty common knowledge amongst boxing fans...
Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shamrock
I love the 'who was the best ever arguements and the 'who would have won between fighters from different era's' they display both knowledge of boxing history and and an understanding f different fighters styles.
The truth is though they are as pointless as they are interesting. I've argued both topics a million times and rarely if ever has someone changed their opinion ;D. No one can ever be proved 100% conlusivley right and that means that almost everyone's opinion deserves respect I guess.
For me it's virtually impossible to call between (and in particular order) Ali, Johnson, Louis and The Rock.
I wonder what it says about our sport though that a boxer from modern times is hardly ever even considered as challenging for one of the top spots (apart from maybe Tyson) ????
Naww you could make arguments for current fighters,just not at heavyweight
I cant stand Mayweather,but a case could be made pretty easily
B-hop
Calzeghe
Roy Jones
Oscar,the way he's been able to shunt weight classes is stunning
We've gotten to watch our share of legit greats
It's the heavweights I'm talking about TMonkey... Other weights we've had our share of greats but at heavyweight we've had little if anything to shout about. Some good heavweight fights but no real contenders for breaking inot the top 4 of the best ever heavweight fighter ever.
Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shamrock
Rockys return to the amateurs after turning pro is pretty common knowledge amongst boxing fans...
...and so his recognized record is???
Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shamrock
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shamrock
I love the 'who was the best ever arguements and the 'who would have won between fighters from different era's' they display both knowledge of boxing history and and an understanding f different fighters styles.
The truth is though they are as pointless as they are interesting. I've argued both topics a million times and rarely if ever has someone changed their opinion ;D. No one can ever be proved 100% conlusivley right and that means that almost everyone's opinion deserves respect I guess.
For me it's virtually impossible to call between (and in particular order) Ali, Johnson, Louis and The Rock.
I wonder what it says about our sport though that a boxer from modern times is hardly ever even considered as challenging for one of the top spots (apart from maybe Tyson) ????
Naww you could make arguments for current fighters,just not at heavyweight
I cant stand Mayweather,but a case could be made pretty easily
B-hop
Calzeghe
Roy Jones
Oscar,the way he's been able to shunt weight classes is stunning
We've gotten to watch our share of legit greats
It's the heavweights I'm talking about TMonkey... Other weights we've had our share of greats but at heavyweight we've had little if anything to shout about. Some good heavweight fights but no real contenders for breaking inot the top 4 of the best ever heavweight fighter ever.
This is why Ive been advocating a super-heavy weight class for years now. These guys are massive,but if you dont make weight,guess who your playing with next
Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
A superheavyweight class would only make the heavyweights the new cruiserweights. Besides Jess Willard, Primo Carnera, Tye Fields, Julius Long.....there are a loooooong list of guys who were big and didn't do SHIT in the division and Marciano, Charles, Walcott, Tyson, Dempsey, Moore, etc that were small and did a bunch in the division
Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
A superheavyweight class would only make the heavyweights the new cruiserweights. Besides Jess Willard, Primo Carnera, Tye Fields, Julius Long.....there are a loooooong list of guys who were big and didn't do SHIT in the division and Marciano, Charles, Walcott, Tyson, Dempsey, Moore, etc that were small and did a bunch in the division
Its getting ridiculous now thou,youve got guys like Valuev and Lewis lumbering around the ring,and all they have to do is land a single punch. The weight classes need some restructuring,and thats the easiest fix
Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
Ali was and still is the greatest.
Rocky Marciano fought more bums then i have ever seen, just another sven otke if you ask me.
Joe louise was great and on par or just below Muhammad Ali, but Rocky's just a shoe shiner in comparison.
Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
Ali vs. Rocky - in their prime. I think Ali would have got him on points, he was damn quick after all, but if Rocky got him once or twice with that right hand, then I think Ali would have gone down hard. :boxing2:
If I were to list the top three....
1. ALI, for his speed, skill, and ambassadorship of the sport.
2. LOUIS, for his skill and lengthy title reign of 11 years and 10 months.
3. ROCKY, 49-0 speaks for itself, plus he could knock out God if he got an opening.
Ali was the greatest.
Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
My top 3 Greatest (different from the best)
1. Ali - No one ever, even to this day, saw a heavyweight who moved like a welterweight. Not to mention the fact that, outside of Marvin Hagler, the man had the greatest chin in boxing history, a fact that is outshadowed by his offensive prowess, much like the fact that Michael Jordan was the greatest defensive player in the NBA and that was overshadowed by his awesome scoring and dunking from the free throw line, etc.
2. Foreman - The man was Goliath. Imagine Marvin Hagler or Jake LaMotta getting knocked down 7 times in 2 rounds and knocked out. Impossible. But that's exactly what Foreman did to Frazier, who was from the exact same cloth as them. Strongest, most powerful heavyweight who ever walked the Earth.
3. Dempsey - This man was Tyson 60 years before Tyson. He was bigger and more famous than Babe Ruth. In the Golden Era of Sports, he was number 1. He didn't beat opponents, he mugged them into submission.
Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MIKAY
Ali was and still is the greatest.
Rocky Marciano fought more bums then i have ever seen, just another sven otke if you ask me.
Joe louise was great and on par or just below Muhammad Ali, but Rocky's just a shoe shiner in comparison.
It's Joe LOUIS....and Rocky fought Rex Layne, Roland LaStarza, Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, and Archie Moore not to mention Joe Louis who was old but still dangerous as Joe never went into a fight thinking he couldn't win it.
And MIKAY for you telling me that I "suk" I will tell you a little secret.......I don't give a fuck what you think and you can go fuck yourself.
Have a nice day ;)
Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Its getting ridiculous now thou,youve got guys like Valuev and Lewis lumbering around the ring,and all they have to do is land a single punch. The weight classes need some restructuring,and thats the easiest fix
Yes but Chagaev who is FAR from a super heavyweight ( 6'1 228 )beat Valuev(7'0 319) and hell you could make a case for Monte Barrett hurting Valuev because he did...and Taras Bidenko too
Lennox Lewis was one thing, but right now the Lewis', Bowe's, and Klitschko's of the world don't come along very often and even if they did they don't stick around very long.
I think if you put Joe Calzaghe or Kelly Pavlik in with the right heavyweight they would win
Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trainer Monkey
Its getting ridiculous now thou,youve got guys like Valuev and Lewis lumbering around the ring,and all they have to do is land a single punch. The weight classes need some restructuring,and thats the easiest fix
Yes but Chagaev who is
FAR from a super heavyweight ( 6'1 228 )beat Valuev(7'0 319) and hell you could make a case for Monte Barrett hurting Valuev because he did...and Taras Bidenko too
Lennox Lewis was one thing, but right now the Lewis', Bowe's, and Klitschko's of the world don't come along very often and even if they did they don't stick around very long.
I think if you put Joe Calzaghe or Kelly Pavlik in with the right heavyweight they would win
But lets face it,its the bread and butter division of boxing,and these guys are slower then dirt,it sucks the life out of the whole sport.
I mean you can get a good win against them,but even having them box in the division screws things up
Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
I found this on George Foreman's web site. His ratings ofthe top 10 heavy's of all time....
- Joe Louis.
To be honest with you, number two is way off. Joe Louis is in a
class by himself. - Rocky Marciano.Just look at Rocky Marciano's record. Nobody beat him. You can't
take that from him. - Jack Johnson.A big brave cat, because he'd do whatever he wanted and get out of
the way. - Muhammad Ali. Put him down as the GREATEST MAN to ever box, and a hero
bigger than boxing. Once Ali lost his speed, it only showed that
he'd never developed a great defense. - Joe Frazier.
Only because he depended solely on his left hook do I rate Joe
Frazier below Marciano. Marciano could hit with both hands. - Jack Dempsy.
Jack Dempsy's very name means strength and courage. Other than
Joe Louis, there is not a name in boxing or in sports with more
meaning. - Mike Tyson. A phenomenon. What Mike Tyson was able to do with his speed of
hand and punching power is as phenomenal as what Muhammad
Ali did when he was Cassius Clay with speed of feet. Tyson
deserves to be in the top ten; this is where I put him, the youngest
man to become Heavyweight Champion of the World. - Sonny Liston.If Sonny Liston truly had not lost his cool, had not underestimated a
young Cassius Clay; and kept the same mind set that he had as a
contender, history would have been a lot kinder to him. Sonny
Liston could not believe Muhammad Ali was so fast and had so
much courage. It just made him fall apart. - Floyd Patterson. The First Two-Time Heavyweight Champion of the World.
- Evander Holyfield. For standing up to Mike Tyson
As you see, I didn't make the list...
The first time around, George Foreman was too mean and too crude.
The second time around, too sophisticated and too publicity conscious to
exploit his power...
Honorable Mention (Alphabetically ordered)
- Max Baer
- Ezzard Charles
- Jersey Joe Walcott
Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shamrock
I found this on George Foreman's web site. His ratings ofthe top 10 heavy's of all time....
- Joe Louis.
To be honest with you, number two is way off. Joe Louis is in a
class by himself. - Rocky Marciano.Just look at Rocky Marciano's record. Nobody beat him. You can't
take that from him. - Jack Johnson.A big brave cat, because he'd do whatever he wanted and get out of
the way. - Muhammad Ali. Put him down as the GREATEST MAN to ever box, and a hero
bigger than boxing. Once Ali lost his speed, it only showed that
he'd never developed a great defense. - Joe Frazier.
Only because he depended solely on his left hook do I rate Joe
Frazier below Marciano. Marciano could hit with both hands. - Jack Dempsy.
Jack Dempsy's very name means strength and courage. Other than
Joe Louis, there is not a name in boxing or in sports with more
meaning. - Mike Tyson. A phenomenon. What Mike Tyson was able to do with his speed of
hand and punching power is as phenomenal as what Muhammad
Ali did when he was Cassius Clay with speed of feet. Tyson
deserves to be in the top ten; this is where I put him, the youngest
man to become Heavyweight Champion of the World. - Sonny Liston.If Sonny Liston truly had not lost his cool, had not underestimated a
young Cassius Clay; and kept the same mind set that he had as a
contender, history would have been a lot kinder to him. Sonny
Liston could not believe Muhammad Ali was so fast and had so
much courage. It just made him fall apart. - Floyd Patterson. The First Two-Time Heavyweight Champion of the World.
- Evander Holyfield. For standing up to Mike Tyson
As you see, I didn't make the list...
The first time around, George Foreman was too mean and too crude.
The second time around, too sophisticated and too publicity conscious to
exploit his power...
Honorable Mention (Alphabetically ordered) - Max Baer
- Ezzard Charles
- Jersey Joe Walcott
Larry Holmes didn't make the list because Foreman hates Holmes and vice a versa. But still even if you hate the guy you should still do an unbiased list which that clearly isn't.
Re: Was Muhammad Ali really the best
Holmes come in at 3, maybe 2 on my list
