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Joe will defo fight again - and it will be a farewell at the millenium stadium. If he ends up havingvb two more and wins then i think he will be too close to beating Marciano's record not to want to carry on.
RJJ rematch no chance.
Hopkins had had his chance so apart from the far too dangerous rematches with Peter Manfredo or Tocker Pudwill, Dawson is the only real logical opponent.
See youy in Cardiff in the spring ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Calzaghe is the linear champion. That is far more important than Dawson's IBF belt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Dawson ONLY has that belt because off the way events unfolded after Roy gave it up when moving to heavyweight. It doesn't mean Roy wasn't the top lightheavy because he no longer had the IBF belt. That is nonsense.
Roy then lost to Tarver at lightheavy. That makes Tarver the top man. Then Johnson beat Tarver. Tarver beat Johnson. Hopkins beat Tarver. Calzaghe beat Hopkins.
To say Calzaghe needs an ALPHABET to claim he's a double weight champ is silly.
Calzaghe could have fought Clinton Woods for this very same IBF title instead of facing Hopkins for the linear title. What is the more important fight? ;)
Yeah but sometimes the title of 'linear' champ is almost as much bullshit as the alphabelt titles Fenst ;)
Hopkins had ONE fight at light heavy, against Tarver, then he gave up the belt to fight a light middleweight and a supermiddleweight. His last fight was against a middleweight. So although he beat Tarver to indeed win the linear title he has been as much a part of that division as Roy Jones was at heavyweight. Hopkins has made no attempt to unify belts at 175, to fight the other champs at 175 or be a factor at all at 175.
Meanwhile Chad Dawson has won two world titles at the weight class beating both Thomaz Adamek and Antonio Tarver, who had won his belt back with a dominant win over Woods. He also beat the always dangerous Glen Johnson.
Although Hopkins, Calzaghe and Jones Jr all fight at 175 (or 170) it's Dawson that is actually fighting light heavyweights and winning world titles.
Hopkins and Calzaghe have basically been using the 175 weight limit rather than taking part in the division's battles for titles.
It's a bit like when Mayorga and Vargas fought at middleweight, they wern't relavent to the division at all, it was just the weight limit they set.
If Calzaghe really wants to lay claim to being the champ in two weight classes he needs to fight the guy who is actually winning world titles there and beating all the other light heavies.
Hopkins only fought one and Jones hasn't beaten a decent light heavy in years.
Calzaghe beating Hopkins (who only ever fought once at light heavy, at least against a light heavyweight) in a not title fight hardly qualifies him as clearing out that division does it?
If he wants to truly be able to claim ownership of two weight classes he needs to fight and defeat Chad Dawson.
Ahhh.. Bilbo you're never gonna get it. So mesmerised by the letters and shiny belts :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterCalzaghe is the linear champion. That is far more important than Dawson's IBF belt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Dawson ONLY has that belt because off the way events unfolded after Roy gave it up when moving to heavyweight. It doesn't mean Roy wasn't the top lightheavy because he no longer had the IBF belt. That is nonsense.
Roy then lost to Tarver at lightheavy. That makes Tarver the top man. Then Johnson beat Tarver. Tarver beat Johnson. Hopkins beat Tarver. Calzaghe beat Hopkins.
To say Calzaghe needs an ALPHABET to claim he's a double weight champ is silly.
Calzaghe could have fought Clinton Woods for this very same IBF title instead of facing Hopkins for the linear title. What is the more important fight? ;)
Yeah but sometimes the title of 'linear' champ is almost as much bullshit as the alphabelt titles Fenst ;)
Hopkins had ONE fight at light heavy, against Tarver, then he gave up the belt to fight a light middleweight and a supermiddleweight. His last fight was against a middleweight. So although he beat Tarver to indeed win the linear title he has been as much a part of that division as Roy Jones was at heavyweight. Hopkins has made no attempt to unify belts at 175, to fight the other champs at 175 or be a factor at all at 175.
Meanwhile Chad Dawson has won two world titles at the weight class beating both Thomaz Adamek and Antonio Tarver, who had won his belt back with a dominant win over Woods. He also beat the always dangerous Glen Johnson.
Although Hopkins, Calzaghe and Jones Jr all fight at 175 (or 170) it's Dawson that is actually fighting light heavyweights and winning world titles.
Hopkins and Calzaghe have basically been using the 175 weight limit rather than taking part in the division's battles for titles.
It's a bit like when Mayorga and Vargas fought at middleweight, they wern't relavent to the division at all, it was just the weight limit they set.
If Calzaghe really wants to lay claim to being the champ in two weight classes he needs to fight the guy who is actually winning world titles there and beating all the other light heavies.
Hopkins only fought one and Jones hasn't beaten a decent light heavy in years.
Calzaghe beating Hopkins (who only ever fought once at light heavy, at least against a light heavyweight) in a not title fight hardly qualifies him as clearing out that division does it?
If he wants to truly be able to claim ownership of two weight classes he needs to fight and defeat Chad Dawson.
Dawson BEAT Tarver to become the IBF champ. That win is solidifying his place at the top of 175 IYO, right?
What makes Dawson's win over Tarver better than Hopkins? Cause it was for the letters IBF instead of IBO?
Hopkins had ALREADY beaten Tarver. Tarver WAS the BEST lightheavy when Hopkins beat him. That makes Hopkins the BEST lightheavy. How can it be any other way?
A lack of star fighters in the division led Hopkins to pursue other avenues. He had already slaughtered Glen Johnson years before.
Dawson may very well be the best fighter at 175. But he needs to beat the real champ - Calzaghe - to prove it. Not the other way round ;)
Hopkins beat Tarver. Dawson beat Tarver, Johnson, Adamek, Mendoza, Harding and Ruiz.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterAhhh.. Bilbo you're never gonna get it. So mesmerised by the letters and shiny belts :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Yeah but sometimes the title of 'linear' champ is almost as much bullshit as the alphabelt titles Fenst ;)
Hopkins had ONE fight at light heavy, against Tarver, then he gave up the belt to fight a light middleweight and a supermiddleweight. His last fight was against a middleweight. So although he beat Tarver to indeed win the linear title he has been as much a part of that division as Roy Jones was at heavyweight. Hopkins has made no attempt to unify belts at 175, to fight the other champs at 175 or be a factor at all at 175.
Meanwhile Chad Dawson has won two world titles at the weight class beating both Thomaz Adamek and Antonio Tarver, who had won his belt back with a dominant win over Woods. He also beat the always dangerous Glen Johnson.
Although Hopkins, Calzaghe and Jones Jr all fight at 175 (or 170) it's Dawson that is actually fighting light heavyweights and winning world titles.
Hopkins and Calzaghe have basically been using the 175 weight limit rather than taking part in the division's battles for titles.
It's a bit like when Mayorga and Vargas fought at middleweight, they wern't relavent to the division at all, it was just the weight limit they set.
If Calzaghe really wants to lay claim to being the champ in two weight classes he needs to fight the guy who is actually winning world titles there and beating all the other light heavies.
Hopkins only fought one and Jones hasn't beaten a decent light heavy in years.
Calzaghe beating Hopkins (who only ever fought once at light heavy, at least against a light heavyweight) in a not title fight hardly qualifies him as clearing out that division does it?
If he wants to truly be able to claim ownership of two weight classes he needs to fight and defeat Chad Dawson.
Dawson BEAT Tarver to become the IBF champ. That win is solidifying his place at the top of 175 IYO, right?
What makes Dawson's win over Tarver better than Hopkins? Cause it was for the letters IBF instead of IBO?
Hopkins had ALREADY beaten Tarver. Tarver WAS the BEST lightheavy when Hopkins beat him. That makes Hopkins the BEST lightheavy. How can it be any other way?
A lack of star fighters in the division led Hopkins to pursue other avenues. He had already slaughtered Glen Johnson years before.
Dawson may very well be the best fighter at 175. But he needs to beat the real champ - Calzaghe - to prove it. ;)
Linear title aside who has done more at 175?
Let's go over it again.
Hopkins
Tarver
Dawson
Tarver
Johnson
Adamek
Mendoza
Harding
Ruiz
I say again, DAWSON is the guy at 175 who is winning titles and beating all the light heavyweight champs and contenders.
Calzaghe may have got the linear title but that's just a nice little history lesson in the how's and when's the mythical belt changed hands.
In all practical and common sense terms Dawson is the man to beat at 175 in order for Calzaghe to be able to claim he unified two weight classes.
What's mythical about "the man that beat the man" system?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboHopkins beat Tarver. Dawson beat Tarver, Johnson, Adamek, Mendoza, Harding and Ruiz.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterAhhh.. Bilbo you're never gonna get it. So mesmerised by the letters and shiny belts :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Dawson BEAT Tarver to become the IBF champ. That win is solidifying his place at the top of 175 IYO, right?
What makes Dawson's win over Tarver better than Hopkins? Cause it was for the letters IBF instead of IBO?
Hopkins had ALREADY beaten Tarver. Tarver WAS the BEST lightheavy when Hopkins beat him. That makes Hopkins the BEST lightheavy. How can it be any other way?
A lack of star fighters in the division led Hopkins to pursue other avenues. He had already slaughtered Glen Johnson years before.
Dawson may very well be the best fighter at 175. But he needs to beat the real champ - Calzaghe - to prove it. ;)
Linear title aside who has done more at 175?
Let's go over it again.
Hopkins
Tarver
Dawson
Tarver
Johnson
Adamek
Mendoza
Harding
Ruiz
I say again, DAWSON is the guy at 175 who is winning titles and beating all the light heavyweight champs and contenders.
Calzaghe may have got the linear title but that's just a nice little history lesson in the how's and when's the mythical belt changed hands.
In all practical and common sense terms Dawson is the man to beat at 175 in order for Calzaghe to be able to claim he unified two weight classes.
I agree with you Dawson is the premier fighter at 175. That was never the debate. It's NOT his alphabet title that makes him top dog though.
You originally said Calzaghe needs an alphabet to claim he's a two weight champ. That is clearly nonsense. As i said he could have fought Clinton Woods but instead chose Hopkins. ;)
For history to regard Calzaghe as the undisputed light heavyweight champ he needs to beat Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterWhat's mythical about "the man that beat the man" system?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboHopkins beat Tarver. Dawson beat Tarver, Johnson, Adamek, Mendoza, Harding and Ruiz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Linear title aside who has done more at 175?
Let's go over it again.
Hopkins
Tarver
Dawson
Tarver
Johnson
Adamek
Mendoza
Harding
Ruiz
I say again, DAWSON is the guy at 175 who is winning titles and beating all the light heavyweight champs and contenders.
Calzaghe may have got the linear title but that's just a nice little history lesson in the how's and when's the mythical belt changed hands.
In all practical and common sense terms Dawson is the man to beat at 175 in order for Calzaghe to be able to claim he unified two weight classes.
I agree with you Dawson is the premier fighter at 175. That was never the debate. It's NOT his alphabet title that makes him top dog though.
You originally said Calzaghe needs an alphabet to claim he's a two weight champ. That is clearly nonsense. As i said he could have fought Clinton Woods but instead chose Hopkins. ;)
If you disagree just point me in the direction of any fighter in any weight class who has been considered the undisputed champ in a weight class because he beat the man who beat the man in a non title fight but beat nobody else in that weight class?
And it's not Dawson's 'alphabet titles' that count here, its the fact that he's the only legitimate guy at 175 lbs who is actually seeking to unify the division. He holds two world belts now, IBF and WBC I believe, whihc even though they are just trinkets, is stil half of the belts in the division.
I think Joe would win.
I think Dawson would pose him a few problems though.
No - he has just the IBF title. The WBC took their belt back because he decided to fight Tarver instead of Diaconu.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFor history to regard Calzaghe as the undisputed light heavyweight champ he needs to beat Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterWhat's mythical about "the man that beat the man" system?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I agree with you Dawson is the premier fighter at 175. That was never the debate. It's NOT his alphabet title that makes him top dog though.
You originally said Calzaghe needs an alphabet to claim he's a two weight champ. That is clearly nonsense. As i said he could have fought Clinton Woods but instead chose Hopkins. ;)
If you disagree just point me in the direction of any fighter in any weight class who has been considered the undisputed champ in a weight class because he beat the man who beat the man in a non title fight but beat nobody else in that weight class?
And it's not Dawson's 'alphabet titles' that count here, its the fact that he's the only legitimate guy at 175 lbs who is actually seeking to unify the division. He holds two world belts now, IBF and WBC I believe, whihc even though they are just trinkets, is stil half of the belts in the division.
Tell me this - if Dawson and Calzaghe decide to fight for Calzaghe's linear Ring title instead of Dawsons IBF title, should Calzaghe win you would NOT class him as a world champion?
I'd class him as the undisputed champ of that division. Whether he would technically be a world champ I don't know but I do know he would be number 1 which is what's important.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterNo - he has just the IBF title. The WBC took their belt back because he decided to fight Tarver instead of Diaconu.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFor history to regard Calzaghe as the undisputed light heavyweight champ he needs to beat Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
If you disagree just point me in the direction of any fighter in any weight class who has been considered the undisputed champ in a weight class because he beat the man who beat the man in a non title fight but beat nobody else in that weight class?
And it's not Dawson's 'alphabet titles' that count here, its the fact that he's the only legitimate guy at 175 lbs who is actually seeking to unify the division. He holds two world belts now, IBF and WBC I believe, whihc even though they are just trinkets, is stil half of the belts in the division.
Tell me this - if Dawson and Calzaghe decide to fight for Calzaghe's linear Ring title instead of Dawsons IBF title, should Calzaghe win you would NOT class him as a world title winner?
I know the lineage is important but it doesn't follow that beating the man makes you the best fighter in the division.
Marquez beat Casamayor to win the linear lightweight championship but there are probably at least 5 lightweights who would beat Casamayor, Manny, J Diaz, Campbell, Santa Cruz would probably all smoke him. I'd easily pick Juan Guzman over him as well if he made weight. No way beating Casamayor makes Marquez the best in that division. Not saying Marquez might not prove to be the best their, but he's got to beat Manny, Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell to prove that, or at least Manny and Nate or the winner of such a fight.
Likewise with Floyd beating Carlos Baldimor. Sure he was the linear champ but in reality I would have bet my house to him losing to any of the top 10 at welterweight, he was a fat, slow plodder.
So yes lineage is important, but it doesn't mean everything. You can be linear champ and still not be the best in your weight class.
Now Calzaghe I believe is the best fighter in his weight class, but Dawson is the guy who is actually winning belts and trying to actually make a name for himself at 175.
Hopkins and Calzaghe essentially just had their rivalry fight at the 175 weight limit. Unless Calzaghe fights and beats Dawson I won't recognise him as a genuine two weight world champ, not because he hasn't won a trinket belt, but becuase he hasn't beaten a proper light heavyweight champ yet.
Blimey, you're confusing me now. :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI'd class him as the undisputed champ of that division. Whether he would technically be a world champ I don't know but I do know he would be number 1 which is what's important.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterNo - he has just the IBF title. The WBC took their belt back because he decided to fight Tarver instead of Diaconu.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Tell me this - if Dawson and Calzaghe decide to fight for Calzaghe's linear Ring title instead of Dawsons IBF title, should Calzaghe win you would NOT class him as a world title winner?
I know the lineage is important but it doesn't follow that beating the man makes you the best fighter in the division.
Marquez beat Casamayor to win the linear lightweight championship but there are probably at least 5 lightweights who would beat Casamayor, Manny, J Diaz, Campbell, Santa Cruz would probably all smoke him. I'd easily pick Juan Guzman over him as well if he made weight. No way beating Casamayor makes Marquez the best in that division. Not saying Marquez might not prove to be the best their, but he's got to beat Manny, Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell to prove that, or at least Manny and Nate or the winner of such a fight.
Likewise with Floyd beating Carlos Baldimor. Sure he was the linear champ but in reality I would have bet my house to him losing to any of the top 10 at welterweight, he was a fat, slow plodder.
So yes lineage is important, but it doesn't mean everything. You can be linear champ and still not be the best in your weight class.
Now Calzaghe I believe is the best fighter in his weight class, but Dawson is the guy who is actually winning belts and trying to actually make a name for himself at 175.
Hopkins and Calzaghe essentially just had their rivalry fight at the 175 weight limit. Unless Calzaghe fights and beats Dawson I won't recognise him as a genuine two weight world champ, not because he hasn't won a trinket belt, but becuase he hasn't beaten a proper light heavyweight champ yet.
The whole point of recognising the linear champion is because multi world champions is utterly ridiculous.
The man that beat the man at least keeps some order. Even if the apparent best fighter isn't occupying the position.
As long as you recognise Dawson is currently top dog because of the form he has shown and NOT because he has an alphabet title, i agree. I think. :-\
I agree. Froch has a bigger name in England than Dawson and is not as good of a boxer. Less risk more money.Quote:
Originally Posted by irons
Yep that's it in a nutshellQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterBlimey, you're confusing me now. :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI'd class him as the undisputed champ of that division. Whether he would technically be a world champ I don't know but I do know he would be number 1 which is what's important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
I know the lineage is important but it doesn't follow that beating the man makes you the best fighter in the division.
Marquez beat Casamayor to win the linear lightweight championship but there are probably at least 5 lightweights who would beat Casamayor, Manny, J Diaz, Campbell, Santa Cruz would probably all smoke him. I'd easily pick Juan Guzman over him as well if he made weight. No way beating Casamayor makes Marquez the best in that division. Not saying Marquez might not prove to be the best their, but he's got to beat Manny, Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell to prove that, or at least Manny and Nate or the winner of such a fight.
Likewise with Floyd beating Carlos Baldimor. Sure he was the linear champ but in reality I would have bet my house to him losing to any of the top 10 at welterweight, he was a fat, slow plodder.
So yes lineage is important, but it doesn't mean everything. You can be linear champ and still not be the best in your weight class.
Now Calzaghe I believe is the best fighter in his weight class, but Dawson is the guy who is actually winning belts and trying to actually make a name for himself at 175.
Hopkins and Calzaghe essentially just had their rivalry fight at the 175 weight limit. Unless Calzaghe fights and beats Dawson I won't recognise him as a genuine two weight world champ, not because he hasn't won a trinket belt, but becuase he hasn't beaten a proper light heavyweight champ yet.
The whole point of recognising the linear champion is because multi world champions is utterly ridiculous.
The man that beat the man at least keeps some order. Even if the apparent best fighter isn't occupying the position.
As long as you recognise Dawson is currently top dog because of the form he has shown and NOT because he has an alphabet title, i agree. I think. :-\
I'm with Bilbs on this petty little semantics argument, Briggs beating Foreman never made him undisputed champion.
Regardless if you're in a one weight era or not IMO beating the linear champ might make you the champ, but not necesarily the undisputed champion, you have to do something to consolidate it. Maybe in the old days if you cleared out most the opposition BEFORE your shot, and then beat the linear champ then you would be undisputed champ, like when Frazier beat Ali. If Haye were to get lucky and KO Wlad in his second fight at Heavy he doesn't automatically become THE man.
That's why I'd knd of like to see Joe V Dawson as he would consolidate his position as a genuine two weight champ, but obviously he'd have to weigh up the risk as the possibility of losing his 0 may be too much, especially if he's unmotivated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboYep that's it in a nutshellQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterBlimey, you're confusing me now. :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
The whole point of recognising the linear champion is because multi world champions is utterly ridiculous.
The man that beat the man at least keeps some order. Even if the apparent best fighter isn't occupying the position.
As long as you recognise Dawson is currently top dog because of the form he has shown and NOT because he has an alphabet title, i agree. I think. :-\
Calzaghe is the true LHW champion of the world.
I think as time goes on the alaphabet belts mean less and less to real fans.
All they do is confuse fight fans and put people off the sport.
I only recognise The Ring champions as real world champs these days.
My point was - Calzaghe doesn't need a poxy alphabet to be recognised as a two weight champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomp
He is the man that beat the man.
Dawson is currently the best lightheavy. Calzaghe is currently the lightheavy champion. So naturally that is the best fight available to enhance both fighters reputation. ;)