Chad Dawson vs Joe Calzaghe

[Kev]

What's mythical about "the man that beat the man" system?

I agree with you Dawson is the premier fighter at 175. That was never the debate. It's NOT his alphabet title that makes him top dog though.

You originally said Calzaghe needs an alphabet to claim he's a two weight champ. That is clearly nonsense. As i said he could have fought Clinton Woods but instead chose Hopkins.

For history to regard Calzaghe as the undisputed light heavyweight champ he needs to beat Dawson.

If you disagree just point me in the direction of any fighter in any weight class who has been considered the undisputed champ in a weight class because he beat the man who beat the man in a non title fight but beat nobody else in that weight class?

And it's not Dawson's 'alphabet titles' that count here, its the fact that he's the only legitimate guy at 175 lbs who is actually seeking to unify the division. He holds two world belts now, IBF and WBC I believe, whihc even though they are just trinkets, is stil half of the belts in the division.

No - he has just the IBF title. The WBC took their belt back because he decided to fight Tarver instead of Diaconu.

Tell me this - if Dawson and Calzaghe decide to fight for Calzaghe's linear Ring title instead of Dawsons IBF title, should Calzaghe win you would NOT class him as a world title winner?

I'd class him as the undisputed champ of that division. Whether he would technically be a world champ I don't know but I do know he would be number 1 which is what's important.

I know the lineage is important but it doesn't follow that beating the man makes you the best fighter in the division.

Marquez beat Casamayor to win the linear lightweight championship but there are probably at least 5 lightweights who would beat Casamayor, Manny, J Diaz, Campbell, Santa Cruz would probably all smoke him. I'd easily pick Juan Guzman over him as well if he made weight. No way beating Casamayor makes Marquez the best in that division. Not saying Marquez might not prove to be the best their, but he's got to beat Manny, Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell to prove that, or at least Manny and Nate or the winner of such a fight.

Likewise with Floyd beating Carlos Baldimor. Sure he was the linear champ but in reality I would have bet my house to him losing to any of the top 10 at welterweight, he was a fat, slow plodder.

So yes lineage is important, but it doesn't mean everything. You can be linear champ and still not be the best in your weight class.

Now Calzaghe I believe is the best fighter in his weight class, but Dawson is the guy who is actually winning belts and trying to actually make a name for himself at 175.

Hopkins and Calzaghe essentially just had their rivalry fight at the 175 weight limit. Unless Calzaghe fights and beats Dawson I won't recognise him as a genuine two weight world champ, not because he hasn't won a trinket belt, but becuase he hasn't beaten a proper light heavyweight champ yet.

[Fenster]

For history to regard Calzaghe as the undisputed light heavyweight champ he needs to beat Dawson.

If you disagree just point me in the direction of any fighter in any weight class who has been considered the undisputed champ in a weight class because he beat the man who beat the man in a non title fight but beat nobody else in that weight class?

And it's not Dawson's 'alphabet titles' that count here, its the fact that he's the only legitimate guy at 175 lbs who is actually seeking to unify the division. He holds two world belts now, IBF and WBC I believe, whihc even though they are just trinkets, is stil half of the belts in the division.

No - he has just the IBF title. The WBC took their belt back because he decided to fight Tarver instead of Diaconu.

Tell me this - if Dawson and Calzaghe decide to fight for Calzaghe's linear Ring title instead of Dawsons IBF title, should Calzaghe win you would NOT class him as a world title winner?

I'd class him as the undisputed champ of that division. Whether he would technically be a world champ I don't know but I do know he would be number 1 which is what's important.

I know the lineage is important but it doesn't follow that beating the man makes you the best fighter in the division.

Marquez beat Casamayor to win the linear lightweight championship but there are probably at least 5 lightweights who would beat Casamayor, Manny, J Diaz, Campbell, Santa Cruz would probably all smoke him. I'd easily pick Juan Guzman over him as well if he made weight. No way beating Casamayor makes Marquez the best in that division. Not saying Marquez might not prove to be the best their, but he's got to beat Manny, Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell to prove that, or at least Manny and Nate or the winner of such a fight.

Likewise with Floyd beating Carlos Baldimor. Sure he was the linear champ but in reality I would have bet my house to him losing to any of the top 10 at welterweight, he was a fat, slow plodder.

So yes lineage is important, but it doesn't mean everything. You can be linear champ and still not be the best in your weight class.

Now Calzaghe I believe is the best fighter in his weight class, but Dawson is the guy who is actually winning belts and trying to actually make a name for himself at 175.

Hopkins and Calzaghe essentially just had their rivalry fight at the 175 weight limit. Unless Calzaghe fights and beats Dawson I won't recognise him as a genuine two weight world champ, not because he hasn't won a trinket belt, but becuase he hasn't beaten a proper light heavyweight champ yet.

Blimey, you're confusing me now.

The whole point of recognising the linear champion is because multi world champions is utterly ridiculous.

The man that beat the man at least keeps some order. Even if the apparent best fighter isn't occupying the position.

As long as you recognise Dawson is currently top dog because of the form he has shown and NOT because he has an alphabet title, i agree. I think.

[Kev]

No - he has just the IBF title. The WBC took their belt back because he decided to fight Tarver instead of Diaconu.

Tell me this - if Dawson and Calzaghe decide to fight for Calzaghe's linear Ring title instead of Dawsons IBF title, should Calzaghe win you would NOT class him as a world title winner?

I'd class him as the undisputed champ of that division. Whether he would technically be a world champ I don't know but I do know he would be number 1 which is what's important.

I know the lineage is important but it doesn't follow that beating the man makes you the best fighter in the division.

Marquez beat Casamayor to win the linear lightweight championship but there are probably at least 5 lightweights who would beat Casamayor, Manny, J Diaz, Campbell, Santa Cruz would probably all smoke him. I'd easily pick Juan Guzman over him as well if he made weight. No way beating Casamayor makes Marquez the best in that division. Not saying Marquez might not prove to be the best their, but he's got to beat Manny, Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell to prove that, or at least Manny and Nate or the winner of such a fight.

Likewise with Floyd beating Carlos Baldimor. Sure he was the linear champ but in reality I would have bet my house to him losing to any of the top 10 at welterweight, he was a fat, slow plodder.

So yes lineage is important, but it doesn't mean everything. You can be linear champ and still not be the best in your weight class.

Now Calzaghe I believe is the best fighter in his weight class, but Dawson is the guy who is actually winning belts and trying to actually make a name for himself at 175.

Hopkins and Calzaghe essentially just had their rivalry fight at the 175 weight limit. Unless Calzaghe fights and beats Dawson I won't recognise him as a genuine two weight world champ, not because he hasn't won a trinket belt, but becuase he hasn't beaten a proper light heavyweight champ yet.

Blimey, you're confusing me now.

The whole point of recognising the linear champion is because multi world champions is utterly ridiculous.

The man that beat the man at least keeps some order. Even if the apparent best fighter isn't occupying the position.

As long as you recognise Dawson is currently top dog because of the form he has shown and NOT because he has an alphabet title, i agree. I think.

Yep that's it in a nutshell

[porkypara]

I'd class him as the undisputed champ of that division. Whether he would technically be a world champ I don't know but I do know he would be number 1 which is what's important.

I know the lineage is important but it doesn't follow that beating the man makes you the best fighter in the division.

Marquez beat Casamayor to win the linear lightweight championship but there are probably at least 5 lightweights who would beat Casamayor, Manny, J Diaz, Campbell, Santa Cruz would probably all smoke him. I'd easily pick Juan Guzman over him as well if he made weight. No way beating Casamayor makes Marquez the best in that division. Not saying Marquez might not prove to be the best their, but he's got to beat Manny, Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell to prove that, or at least Manny and Nate or the winner of such a fight.

Likewise with Floyd beating Carlos Baldimor. Sure he was the linear champ but in reality I would have bet my house to him losing to any of the top 10 at welterweight, he was a fat, slow plodder.

So yes lineage is important, but it doesn't mean everything. You can be linear champ and still not be the best in your weight class.

Now Calzaghe I believe is the best fighter in his weight class, but Dawson is the guy who is actually winning belts and trying to actually make a name for himself at 175.

Hopkins and Calzaghe essentially just had their rivalry fight at the 175 weight limit. Unless Calzaghe fights and beats Dawson I won't recognise him as a genuine two weight world champ, not because he hasn't won a trinket belt, but becuase he hasn't beaten a proper light heavyweight champ yet.

Blimey, you're confusing me now.

The whole point of recognising the linear champion is because multi world champions is utterly ridiculous.

The man that beat the man at least keeps some order. Even if the apparent best fighter isn't occupying the position.

As long as you recognise Dawson is currently top dog because of the form he has shown and NOT because he has an alphabet title, i agree. I think.

Yep that's it in a nutshell

Calzaghe is the true LHW champion of the world.

I think as time goes on the alaphabet belts mean less and less to real fans.
All they do is confuse fight fans and put people off the sport.

I only recognise The Ring champions as real world champs these days.

[Kev]

Blimey, you're confusing me now.

The whole point of recognising the linear champion is because multi world champions is utterly ridiculous.

The man that beat the man at least keeps some order. Even if the apparent best fighter isn't occupying the position.

As long as you recognise Dawson is currently top dog because of the form he has shown and NOT because he has an alphabet title, i agree. I think.

Yep that's it in a nutshell

Calzaghe is the true LHW champion of the world.

I think as time goes on the alaphabet belts mean less and less to real fans.
All they do is confuse fight fans and put people off the sport.

I only recognise The Ring champions as real world champs these days.

~Have you not read any of the 1000 plus words I wrote?

It's not because Dawson has a belt that makes him the man to beat it's the fact that he's the only top light heavyweight who actually fights light heavyweights!

Hopkins had ONE fight at light heavy, beating Tarver. He then gave up the belt and fought Winky at 170 who had never gone above 160 and then fought Joe a supermiddle who had never fought outside that weight class before. Both Joe and B Hop weight 173 for the fight, not sure if that was an agreed catchweight or not but Calzaghe came in at just under 175 for Jones.

Hopkins never wanted anything to do with the 175 weight class other than the chance to call himself a two weight world champ.

Calzaghe beats Hopkins, in a fight which might just as well have taken place at 168 and then fights Jones Jr, which although a huge marquee fight against a boxing legend, wasn't against a fighter rated as one of the real current threats in the division.

Meanwhile Dawson has been fighting and beating everybody.

It's similar to Juan diaz when he was winning all the belts and defeating everyone in the lightweight divsion whilst Casamayor was scraping through thanks to corrupt judging and going life and death with relatively ordinary fighters like Katsidis.

If Juan Diaz had beaten Nate Campbell and then Marquez had beaten Casamayor before vacating the belt and fighting Juan Guzman back at superfeather, then Valero came up and beat Marquez in a non title fight we'd be in a similar situation.

And I'd be adament that Valero wasn't the number 1 in the division, Juan Diaz would have been, not becuase of trinket belts but becuase he was the guy winning fights in the lightweight division.


So if Calzaghe wants to be able to truly lay claim to being king at 175 he needs to beat the other unbeaten fighter who has won 2 world title belts and beaten Tarver, Johnson and Adamek three bona fida world champs

[Kev]

If you follow this linear champ stuff to the letter you'd have to say that for a brief period in 2006 Carlos Baldimor was the best fighter in the world at 147 lbs.

Is that really the case?

Did his win over Zab mean it was job done, he'd cleaned up at welterweight and could down in history as an undisputed universally recognised champ?

This is a rhetorical question obviously any answer other than 'FUCKING HELL NO!!!!' is completely wrong

[Fenster]

If you follow this linear champ stuff to the letter you'd have to say that for a brief period in 2006 Carlos Baldimor was the best fighter in the world at 147 lbs.

Is that really the case?

Did his win over Zab mean it was job done, he'd cleaned up at welterweight and could down in history as an undisputed universally recognised champ?

This is a rhetorical question obviously any answer other than 'FUCKING HELL NO!!!!' is completely wrong

Ive explained to you before being the linear champ doesn't necessarily mean you're the best fighter.

Mate you seem to contradict and repeat yourself so much, please answer me this

Do you class Hopkins as a lightheavy champ?

[Bomp]

I'm with Bilbs on this petty little semantics argument, Briggs beating Foreman never made him undisputed champion.

Regardless if you're in a one weight era or not IMO beating the linear champ might make you the champ, but not necesarily the undisputed champion, you have to do something to consolidate it. Maybe in the old days if you cleared out most the opposition BEFORE your shot, and then beat the linear champ then you would be undisputed champ, like when Frazier beat Ali. If Haye were to get lucky and KO Wlad in his second fight at Heavy he doesn't automatically become THE man.

That's why I'd knd of like to see Joe V Dawson as he would consolidate his position as a genuine two weight champ, but obviously he'd have to weigh up the risk as the possibility of losing his 0 may be too much, especially if he's unmotivated.

[Fenster]

I'm with Bilbs on this petty little semantics argument, Briggs beating Foreman never made him undisputed champion.

Regardless if you're in a one weight era or not IMO beating the linear champ might make you the champ, but not necesarily the undisputed champion, you have to do something to consolidate it. Maybe in the old days if you cleared out most the opposition BEFORE your shot, and then beat the linear champ then you would be undisputed champ, like when Frazier beat Ali. If Haye were to get lucky and KO Wlad in his second fight at Heavy he doesn't automatically become THE man.

That's why I'd knd of like to see Joe V Dawson as he would consolidate his position as a genuine two weight champ, but obviously he'd have to weigh up the risk as the possibility of losing his 0 may be too much, especially if he's unmotivated.

My point was - Calzaghe doesn't need a poxy alphabet to be recognised as a two weight champion.

He is the man that beat the man.

Dawson is currently the best lightheavy. Calzaghe is currently the lightheavy champion. So naturally that is the best fight available to enhance both fighters reputation.

[ICB]

Not this old chesnut again i remember Fenster/Bilbo, going over this not long ago.