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Someone like Hagler? Who ruled the middleweight division, genuinely ruled it, for 11 years? No way Pacquiao is on Hagler's level as of right now imo simply because of that longevity factor. That's not to undermind what Pacquiao has done but damn that's a rough one.
It depends when it happened, if he cleaned out the welterweight division that would be very impressive. If he did beat Mayweather that would be one of the greater achievements in boxing history. Definitely modern boxing history.
Pac could feasibly end up having the best resume of all time. Imagine a record of wins that includes Barera, Morales, Marquez, De La Hoya and Mayweather.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Exactly, if he beat Floyd Mayweather at 147 that in my mind would be possibly the greatest achievement in boxing history. Sounds crazy but who else in history has moved up that many divisions and beaten THE man and THE p4p best fighter in the world in THEIR weight class?Quote:
Originally Posted by iwng100Whole agree if he’ll beat Hatton and mainly Mayweather.His accomplishment is already tremendous but to step up 3 weight classes in 1 or 2 years and beat the boxer of the decade in the most opinions, that would be a record almost unbeatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Nobody ever has. Sugar Ray Robinson failed just moving up to light heavyweight. Hopkins got massive plaudits for beating moving from middle to light heavy for beating Tarver and Tarver is nowhere near the calibre fighter Floyd Mayweather is. Roy Jones got immortalised for winning a heavyweight title, but he fought the weakest belt holder available and then moved straight back down, he was never the heavyweight champ, not even close, Lennox Lewis would have killed him.
So if Manny moved up and fought and defeated Floyd Mayweather, the Ring champ, undefeated 5 weight world champ, hands down the best fighter of the last decade, hands down p4p number 1 in the world until his retirement, and at only 30 years or so still in his absolute prime, if Manny fought and beat that guy, who else in boxing history has done that? :confused:
That's why I say IF, because it's a HUGE ask.
But beating Eric Morales, Marco Antonio Barrera, Juan Manuel Marquez, Ricky Hatton, Oscar De La Hoya AND Floyd Mayweather, every single one a shoe in for the Hall of Fame, if that didn't put Manny in the top 3-5 of all time I don't know what would.
He would surely leapfrog the likes of Duran, Leonard, Armstrong etc with that performance.
Arguably it could even be a greatest of all time challenging record as Sugar Ray Robinson himself didn't beat so many Hall of Fame fighters across so many weight classes as that.
But lets not get carried away, his acomplishments so far are amazing, but he hasn't even fought Hatton and Floyd, much less beaten them yet, but if he did it would be boxing immortality and a legendary status for the Pacman.
But, you could argue that he lost twice to JMM, lost to an already on the slide Morales and won a fix against De La Hoya :-X
Hre come the pelters ;D
Not a million miles from the truth Bilbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
Imo Pacquaio already rates as high as Hagler. Ruling one division simply is not as impressive as winning titles across 5 imo.
Fair enough if Pacquiao cherry picked his opponents and just went for belt holders, but that's not the case. David Diaz aside he's always sought out the best in each weight class and defeated them.
Morales 2-1 including 2 ko's
Barrera 2-0 including 1 ko
Marquez 1-0-1
De La Hoya KO
That's 6 wins against hall of fame opposition
Hagler beat some great names but but only Duran and Hearns are all time greats.
In my opinion Hagler benefitted a great deal from the illustrious pedigree of his smaller rivals but in terms of actual fight acomplishments he's acheived less than both Bernard Hopkins and Joe Calzagh. Less title defenses, only won titles in one weight class, reigned for less time. Beat the same number of Hall of Fame opponents.
Manny has dominated across so many weight classes now and has beaten his HOF opponents every bit as decisively as Hagler (Marquez excluded)
You could easily make a case for Manny being top 20 now imo following his performance against Oscar, I mean it was simply accepted fact that this was just a money fight and an easy win for the Goldenboy, Pacquiao was just not expected to win. People even complained saying it was a mismatch and shouldn't be licensed. He not only won, but won so brutally that now you have people as knowledgable as Taeth just saying matter of factly that Paqiuaio would rearrange Cotto's face and nobody disagrees with him!
Who would have though such a statement could possibly have been made even a few weeks ago?
Manny's performance against Oscar was unbelievable, and when you add to that the demolition job he did on David Diaz he has proven he can now rule across 3 maybe even 4 weight classes.
If he fights and beats Hatton he's imo eclipsed what Henry Armstrong did as it's harder win titles against the best opposition in 3 weight classes at the same time in the modern era. It's just not done any more.
A win over Hatton and Manny is knocking on the door as top 10 best ever.
He may not be as techinically gifted as the likes of Roy Jones and B Hop etc but if he beats Hatton imo he will have achieved even more.
When you look at the records of all the current greats, Floyd, Jones, Hopkins, Calzaghe etc, what stands out most is the names they avoided.
Not so with Manny, he's fought everybody and beaten everybody.
His list of opponents is rivalled in the modern era only by Oscar and Holyfield, but unlike those two he's won all of his big fights, mostly by KO.
He's an absolutely amazing fighter possibly best ever under 130 lbs of all time.
Jimmy Wilde and Willie Pep for example never moved through 6 weight classes and beat the best in most of them.
Can you picture Willie Pep moving up and beating Jake La Motta at welterweight?
Manny's acheived something magnificant with his win over Oscar, not just to win but to annihilate one of the best fighters of the past 15 years, 3 weight classes above his natural limit. It's simply incredible.
This analogy is fantastic , and i agree 100% , what Manny has done from flyweight onwards is astounding , he has carried both his speed and power , as he has moved up , and lets face it he has ducked nobody.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by amat
Imo Pacquaio already rates as high as Hagler. Ruling one division simply is not as impressive as winning titles across 5 imo.
Fair enough if Pacquiao cherry picked his opponents and just went for belt holders, but that's not the case. David Diaz aside he's always sought out the best in each weight class and defeated them.
Morales 2-1 including 2 ko's
Barrera 2-0 including 1 ko
Marquez 1-0-1
De La Hoya KO
That's 6 wins against hall of fame opposition
Hagler beat some great names but but only Duran and Hearns are all time greats.
In my opinion Hagler benefitted a great deal from the illustrious pedigree of his smaller rivals but in terms of actual fight acomplishments he's acheived less than both Bernard Hopkins and Joe Calzagh. Less title defenses, only won titles in one weight class, reigned for less time. Beat the same number of Hall of Fame opponents.
Manny has dominated across so many weight classes now and has beaten his HOF opponents every bit as decisively as Hagler (Marquez excluded)
You could easily make a case for Manny being top 20 now imo following his performance against Oscar, I mean it was simply accepted fact that this was just a money fight and an easy win for the Goldenboy, Pacquiao was just not expected to win. People even complained saying it was a mismatch and shouldn't be licensed. He not only won, but won so brutally that now you have people as knowledgable as Taeth just saying matter of factly that Paqiuaio would rearrange Cotto's face and nobody disagrees with him!
Who would have though such a statement could possibly have been made even a few weeks ago?
Manny's performance against Oscar was unbelievable, and when you add to that the demolition job he did on David Diaz he has proven he can now rule across 3 maybe even 4 weight classes.
If he fights and beats Hatton he's imo eclipsed what Henry Armstrong did as it's harder win titles against the best opposition in 3 weight classes at the same time in the modern era. It's just not done any more.
A win over Hatton and Manny is knocking on the door as top 10 best ever.
He may not be as techinically gifted as the likes of Roy Jones and B Hop etc but if he beats Hatton imo he will have achieved even more.
When you look at the records of all the current greats, Floyd, Jones, Hopkins, Calzaghe etc, what stands out most is the names they avoided.
Not so with Manny, he's fought everybody and beaten everybody.
His list of opponents is rivalled in the modern era only by Oscar and Holyfield, but unlike those two he's won all of his big fights, mostly by KO.
He's an absolutely amazing fighter possibly best ever under 130 lbs of all time.
Jimmy Wilde and Willie Pep for example never moved through 6 weight classes and beat the best in most of them.
Can you picture Willie Pep moving up and beating Jake La Motta at welterweight?
Manny's acheived something magnificant with his win over Oscar, not just to win but to annihilate one of the best fighters of the past 15 years, 3 weight classes above his natural limit. It's simply incredible.
Not everyone on here likes PAC , but any real fan has to applaud him.
As far as im concerned hes a fantastic fighter to watch .P4P NUMBER 1
Pac's achievements are great but to say he DOMINATED divisions is going way over the top.
Featherweight - Beat Barrera, drew with Marquez (lucky to get a draw IMO), lost to Morales. He didn't even win an alphabet at the weight (;D).
Superfeather - A superb run.. Beat Morales X 2, Larios, Barrera and Marquez (lucky to get the decision against Marquez IMO)
Lightweight - Beat the weakest alphabet champ in Diaz. Good win, good performance, but that's it, he was EXPECTED to win EASY.
Welterweight - Beat a clearly weight-drained, ancient Oscar. Great win nonetheless considering he was UNDERDOG and the weight jump.
So.. he has great wins, for sure, but above superfeather hasn't yet come close to facing the TOP guys. ;)
I dont think i rate pacman above Leonard i mean Leonard best wins are Duran,Benitez,Hearns and Hagler Pacmans best wins are Barrea, Morales, Marqauz, Del hoya and even if you added the likes of Hatton and Mayweather it would be close one for me even then with those wins. Morales was coming off of losses in everytime he fought pacman even the one that he lost to him as well which is not saying it was not a great win. Barrea was top from but also was beaten by a guy far below him in Jones but that seem to be a guy to have his number to tell you the truth. Marquaz well he had a draw and then fight which could of gone either way to tell you the truth alot of people thought Marquaz did enough to win it. Now for the big one in Oscar Del hoya was at the age 35 and already been beaten on a number of times and was only fight once a year but still a great win but you got to look at all the stuff that was going on with him. Hatton if he were to win would be good but lets not forget that Hatton record to him is not the thing of atg he may or may not make it to the hall of fame because besides the one great win he had thats about it. Now for me Mayweather and pacman are the same size so i would rate that to like a Leonard win over Hearns and not much better then that dude. Look at Leonards record he has been champion in the same amount of divsions. He beat Duran and made him quite and he was atg in the top 10. Benitez was undefeated and was the youngest champion there ever was and also was a champion in LWW and WW and Leonard was his first title fight and he knocked him out he was also a hall of famer and went on win LMW title. Hearns was top WW and never been stoped or beat and Leonard was the first to do that to him he went on to win titles in LMW,MW,SMW, LHW and CW and still knocking people out that got him in his way thats great win. Now for Hagler although not prime was coming off his best win and had not lost in like 10 years maybe it was 11 but Ray Leonard was no longer prime and he did not fight for ever and came back to win a close decsion that to me was a great accomplishment as well for him to do that. Even with those wins that Pac might get i would still put Leonard above him i think his wins are greater and i think pound for pound was a better fighter and had as many skills even more so i would still put him above.
IF Manny beats Hatton, Cotto, PBF...
:allhail:
Although I doubt he can, but IF that will happen? I agree to many of you, he must be under top10 of all time... That's one hell of an achievement... He has beaten prime fighters at 130 below, all that he still needs to do to make a great resume is to beat the primes over 135-147... And those were Ricky, Cotto, and PBF... Again(sorry for being redundant)... IF this will happen? He's invincible... Deserves to be one of the best of ALL TIME!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Yes but no fighter in boxing history has ever truly dominated two divisions, there's simply not enough time in a career.
Even the great Ray Robinson was only dominant at welter, he could barely string two defenses together at middleweight (;D)
But he completely wrapped up and owned the superfeatherweight division beating every significant rival. I must admit I don't know much about his flyweight and bantamweight days but he won world titles at both flyweight and super bantam so am guessing he must have come close to ruling those weight classes as well whilst he was there.
When you look at the current flyweights, like Donaire, Darchinyan, Arce etc, the idea of them going through the likes of Isreal Vazquez and R Marquez before moving up to take on Stephen Leuveno then on to super featherweight to challenge Edwin Valero and Humberto Soto, before going after Nate Campbell at lightweight then up again to fight Kendall Holt etc, it just sounds completely ridiculous.
But Manny has actually gone and done that, his resume is amazing in my opinion even if Floyd comes back as far as I'm concerned he's only p4p number 2 unless he beats Manny.
Floyd fought Oscar to a split decision win, Manny just completely fucking creamed him. I can't think of any fighter who has ever moved through the weights like he has and kept his power, save for maybe Thomas Hearns, but he never started out as a flyweight!
He got knocked spark-out as the flyweight "world" champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Yes but no fighter in boxing history has ever truly dominated two divisions, there's simply not enough time in a career.
Even the great Ray Robinson was only dominant at welter, he could barely string two defenses together at middleweight (;D)
But he completely wrapped up and owned the superfeatherweight division beating every significant rival. I must admit I don't know much about his flyweight and bantamweight days but he won world titles at both flyweight and super bantam so am guessing he must have come close to ruling those weight classes as well whilst he was there.
When you look at the current flyweights, like Donaire, Darchinyan, Arce etc, the idea of them going through the likes of Isreal Vazquez and R Marquez before moving up to take on Stephen Leuveno then on to super featherweight to challenge Edwin Valero and Humberto Soto, before going after Nate Campbell at lightweight then up again to fight Kendall Holt etc, it just sounds completely ridiculous.
But Manny has actually gone and done that, his resume is amazing in my opinion even if Floyd comes back as far as I'm concerned he's only p4p number 2 unless he beats Manny.
Floyd fought Oscar to a split decision win, Manny just completely fucking creamed him. I can't think of any fighter who has ever moved through the weights like he has and kept his power, save for maybe Thomas Hearns, but he never started out as a flyweight!
His achievements are great.
But i reckon it would mean MUCH more beating the linear no.1 lightwelter, Hatton, than the two wins over Diaz and Oscar.
And obviously a WIN over Floyd would make him a proper LEGEND.
Well Tommy Hearns started out at 147 and went all the way to 190 so i say he was just as powerfull i guess but dont forget what age Pacman was when he started he was 16 thats reason the weight was so low Mayweather was at that weight when he was that age in the amatures. I mean even Oscar when he was younger was in the 130 division which was not his real weight just a thought when people talk about weights you got to remeber the age at which the fighter started.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Pac got a good resume.. there are only few fighters(same era with pac) have that kind of accomplishments? Its hard to judge his reign above superfeather coz hes just been there merely 6 months..
i think what Pac did to his career is one of a kind.. From flyweight to superfeather to welter... who else does this? many people always question his achievements and i don't know why... many question his so called p4p skill being 1 dimensional or etc, etc.. but where are those p4p skilled fighters? Did they test their ability against the best?
regarding JMM.. well what can i say seems alot still don't accept the FACT that pac won.. If JMM really is a very very very skilled fighter as everybody else here mention.. why he can't beat Pac in a convincing manner.. isn't pac a 1 DIMENSIONAL FIGHTER? seems like a very technical gifted fighter having a hard time beating a 1 dimensional fighter. everybody is busy scrutinizing pacs resume.. Anyway this happens to every boxer who are successful just like PBF, JC, etc..
Now this comes to my mind that the reason why pac always wins it’s because of there are people who underestimate him.
if you ask me if he is an all time great? YES HE IS... where he ranks? That depends on where he is going from now until the day he call it quits..
I say his simply the best fighter that came from the lighter weight division.
ledwaba
jolio
marco 2x
eric 2x
jmm
diaz
dela hoya
diaz maybe underrated, the best lightweight at the time was casamayor but the guy who beat casamayor more convincing then jmm if not for a k.o. was beaten by Diaz (santa cruz) imo jmm was losing the match against casa when the ko happen.
lewaba is a great win, pac took that fight in two weeks notice just to be known in the states and he destroyed him.
pac should of won the fight with sanchez and not a draw. the first with jmm, no matter what anybody say. the fact is the judge made an error on the scorecard. pac should of won that as well.
btw pac was doing this on his way up to his prime, he lost to eric on his way up but he came back like a true champ and ko'ed eric, who has never been ko'ed.
I think what set pac apart is that he beats up his oppenent and not just get the "W".
Another thing with pacs career is that, his oppenent looks slow and weak when pac is on top of his game. People can say his oppenent is past their prime, they were drain, they were this and that but maybe they should consider they look that way against pac cause pac is so much faster and stronger. Anyways i just hope pac becomes one of the all time great ever, Im proud of him already. I know if I say too much non fans of him will just call me a groupie or what ever these kids call a person giving props to his fighter. Atleast all my props to pac are FACTS.
Trying to make Diaz look better to bolster Pac is silly. It wasn't just Casamayor rated higher than him, there's about half-a-dozen guys including - Juan Diaz and Campbell, even guys like Romanov, Katsidis etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Rain
You want people to accept the judges decision that Pac beat Marquez then you have to accept the judges decision that Casamayor beat Cruz. You can't have it both ways. MOST thought old Morales beat Diaz too. But the fact is he lost on the judges cards.
It's also very silly to claim somebody beat someone "more convincing but for the KO".. ;D.. Diaz was LOSING to Cruz before the KO "saved" him.
Finally.. if you claim Pac wasn't at his best when LOSING to Morales, people can just as easily claim Morales was past his best when losing to Pac ;)
Fact.
When you put it that way, it sound CRAZY! Nice analogy!Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Yes but no fighter in boxing history has ever truly dominated two divisions, there's simply not enough time in a career.
Even the great Ray Robinson was only dominant at welter, he could barely string two defenses together at middleweight (;D)
But he completely wrapped up and owned the superfeatherweight division beating every significant rival. I must admit I don't know much about his flyweight and bantamweight days but he won world titles at both flyweight and super bantam so am guessing he must have come close to ruling those weight classes as well whilst he was there.
When you look at the current flyweights, like Donaire, Darchinyan, Arce etc, the idea of them going through the likes of Isreal Vazquez and R Marquez before moving up to take on Stephen Leuveno then on to super featherweight to challenge Edwin Valero and Humberto Soto, before going after Nate Campbell at lightweight then up again to fight Kendall Holt etc, it just sounds completely ridiculous.
But Manny has actually gone and done that, his resume is amazing in my opinion even if Floyd comes back as far as I'm concerned he's only p4p number 2 unless he beats Manny.
Floyd fought Oscar to a split decision win, Manny just completely fucking creamed him. I can't think of any fighter who has ever moved through the weights like he has and kept his power, save for maybe Thomas Hearns, but he never started out as a flyweight!