Does anybody think Valuev won?

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Originally Posted by porkypara

Wonder what the punch stats were?

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I'm guessing something like this

Valuev 3/25

Holyfield 9/40

that's my best guess, honestly it wouldn't be that hard to count by hand on this one.

I don't know how anyone could give Valuev more than 3 rounds. It's not as if he was even throwing anything.

I don't know if this can happen but i had the fight a draw 0 - 0 is was that piss poor, best case 108 - 108 , no-one did enough to a single round

The HW scene is a disgrace having them 2 fight for a World Title

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Originally Posted by J_C

I have to admit I thought it was a very close fight, literally due to NOTHING happening. It was maybe the worst fight ive ever seen. I'll also admit I had it 115-114 Valuev.

I was really confused by the American commentary thinking Holyfield was winning every round more or less, so I trawled the forums and found almost everybody had a similar result, which has led to me registering to post.

Lets be honest - both fighters threw f all and landed f all. So imo a lot of the rounds came down to how you interpret movement and aggression and all of that. The poster above, Kel, says 'Evander bounced around on his toes and Valuev had no answer for it'....but could this not be interpreted as Evander just backing off and running away refusing to engage...and therefore being the fighter on the backfoot and defensive? If thats the case no one threw anything really, then that would be giving rounds to Valuev would it not?

Obviously Valuev was extremely static, but he did own the centre of the ring and was providing more forward movement and lamely pawing out with the jab some. Imo its no good backing off and circling being on your toes IF you dont throw something as well, it just looks like youre scared to engage in combat. Its a shame cos I wanted Holyfield to win and it was really there for the taking if he just could have gone in and out a bit more (eg more than once a round).

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It is a judges job to know something about the fighters participating in a title fight....ANY JUDGE who does not know about Evander Holyfield should not be judging a fight in boxing let alone a HW title bout....

The Evander of old was a fighter who liked to bounce before he struck look at any of his prime fights and you would know that...There is a difference between bouncing and being inactive and running....

Not as if Valuev was following him in a stalking manner EG_ Miguel Cotto wallking an opponent down to unleash is stalking to attack....

Following a man around with no idea what to do or how to handle the movement is not....

Ruslan Chagaev beat Valuev by using constant movement and basically jabbing him...That fight Valuev had no idea on what to do either.....

Ruslan was just more active then Evander is all...

Valuev had some moments with his jab in the later rds as evander was tired but certainly not enough to warrent a victory,,,absolutly not enough for the scors read...

I mean c'mon man this was booed in Switzerland

I just wish that Wladimir would get a shot at Valuev...Valuev SAYS he wants to fight the best but he never TRIES to fight the best.

Evander had to make the fight as best he could without taking any risks against the much bigger guy. It was as bad a fight as it was because Holyfield was waiting for Valuev to make a move so he could counter and find openings. Valuev didnt do anything so this made Evanders job a lot harder. Valuev made no effort to defend his titles and Evander, who most people thought was going to get annihilated, stuck to a smart gameplan that enabled him to overcome the size difference and take rounds from the giant by using lateral movement and throwing conservative combonations when he did get inside, and ultimately winning a decision, which he should have. 46 y/o Holyfield was on his toes for 12 rounds, in complete control of the pace of the fight and his opponent from the beginning, making Valuev look like an amateur and completely uncomfortable and clueless, few thought he could do any of those things. Those people saying that Valuev won must be immpressed with Valuevs size and figure that being in the middle on the ring, doing nothing, gives Valuev the edge because of his "ring generalship" and imposing shadow. He must be even more of a defensive genius than Willie Pep because Pep only won one round without throwing a punch. Valuev could actually will himself a victory. Truly astonishing feat by the Russian.

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Originally Posted by J_C

I wanted to see Holyfield counterpunch believe me but I didnt hardly see that really I have to say. Not anything to do with Holy not countering when Valuev landed of course but EVRYTHING to do with the whole fight being fought out of range! There was nothing to counter cos nothing was happening! It was an absolutely bizzare fight, like Holyfield fought if he stayed out of range and circled enough eventually Valuev would get dizzy and hit the deck ;D

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Orrr....He fought like a man who was outweighed by 100 + lbs,an 11 year age diference,and has been on the down slide for more than a few years,yet he still maintained enough activity to make/keep Valuev overthinking things and apparently deficiant in enough confidence to fight as a Heavyweight Champion.The fight was a bore.....but when does the Fav. and Champion shoulder some responsibility for stinking out the place?If he can not catch up to the old man who is throwing minimal counters and force a taxing pace on him with the age,weight,height advantages he had....Thats on him.Vauev fought like a 2nd rate challenger.

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Originally Posted by porkypara

Normaly when there are controvercial judges score cards there are some who think they got it wrong and some who think they got it right.

Does anybody think they got it right last night?

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Dont know,i was total drunk then i saw the fight:lol::drinker:

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by J_C

I wanted to see Holyfield counterpunch believe me but I didnt hardly see that really I have to say. Not anything to do with Holy not countering when Valuev landed of course but EVRYTHING to do with the whole fight being fought out of range! There was nothing to counter cos nothing was happening! It was an absolutely bizzare fight, like Holyfield fought if he stayed out of range and circled enough eventually Valuev would get dizzy and hit the deck ;D

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Orrr....He fought like a man who was outweighed by 100 + lbs,an 11 year age diference,and has been on the down slide for more than a few years,yet he still maintained enough activity to make/keep Valuev overthinking things and apparently deficiant in enough confidence to fight as a Heavyweight Champion.The fight was a bore.....but when does the Fav. and Champion shoulder some responsibility for stinking out the place?If he can not catch up to the old man who is throwing minimal counters and force a taxing pace on him with the age,weight,height advantages he had....Thats on him.Vauev fought like a 2nd rate challenger.

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EXACTLY..

that's something like what i was going to say..

directed towards J_C.. Holyfield was not running, he was being smart.. He knows he's not going to win a brawl with someone SO MUCH bigger than him, and was trying to get in and out as much as possible.. Running would have been if Valuev actually attempted to put Evander on the ropes, or walk him into a corner, and Evander was trying to escape instead of fight back.. This was not the case..

You do not get points or an advantage for coming into the ring the bigger guy, and the fight should not be scored that way..

Hey guys,

Me and my mate who is also into boxing analysed this fight this afternoon for about an hour and a half. Pretty sick and sadistic I know as it was such a bad fight but we disagreed on the outcome (he had Holy winning by a few points) and we wanted to settle our dispute. We counted everything thrown and everything landed (which isnt quite as time consuming as it may sound due to the lack of activity in the fight). Obviously theres some margin for error but I think we did a good job.

Here are the punch stats...(Round - Valuev - Holyfield)

1 - 37/2 - 19/6
2 - 21/2 - 13/6
3 - 23/2 - 11/7
4 - 32/6 - 18/8
5 - 24/2 - 19/5
6 - 51/7 - 13/6
7 - 37/9 - 13/7
8 - 40/9 - 27/6
9 - 29/5 - 20/4
10 - 35/3 - 17/5
11 - 30/4 - 18/7
12 - 43/1 - 15/3

Valuev 52/402 13%
Holyfield 70/203 34%

As I suspected and said earlier in the thread Valuev threw more but Holyfield landed more. Valuev threw twice as many infact although it really has to be said the majority of those were very weak jabs that never found the target whatsoever. The fact still remains that Valuev threw more in all 12 rounds. Holyfield connected more in 8 from the 12 rounds.

We fully agreed that Holyfield won rounds 2,3,5 and 11 and Valuev won rounds 6,7 and 8.

The other 5 rounds there could all be some debate on and were hard to score. It should be noted that Holyfield did score more connects in 4 of those 5 however.

Upon rewatching the fight I scored it 116-115 in favour of Holyfield. Still very very close though! And I 100% dispute anyone who says it was a clearcut shutout type win still.

Does anybody think Valuev won?

Not me

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Originally Posted by J_C

Hey guys,

Me and my mate who is also into boxing analysed this fight this afternoon for about an hour and a half. Pretty sick and sadistic I know as it was such a bad fight but we disagreed on the outcome (he had Holy winning by a few points) and we wanted to settle our dispute. We counted everything thrown and everything landed (which isnt quite as time consuming as it may sound due to the lack of activity in the fight). Obviously theres some margin for error but I think we did a good job.

Here are the punch stats...(Round - Valuev - Holyfield)

1 - 37/2 - 19/6
2 - 21/2 - 13/6
3 - 23/2 - 11/7
4 - 32/6 - 18/8
5 - 24/2 - 19/5
6 - 51/7 - 13/6
7 - 37/9 - 13/7
8 - 40/9 - 27/6
9 - 29/5 - 20/4
10 - 35/3 - 17/5
11 - 30/4 - 18/7
12 - 43/1 - 15/3

Valuev 52/402 13%
Holyfield 70/203 34%

As I suspected and said earlier in the thread Valuev threw more but Holyfield landed more. Valuev threw twice as many infact although it really has to be said the majority of those were very weak jabs that never found the target whatsoever. The fact still remains that Valuev threw more in all 12 rounds. Holyfield connected more in 8 from the 12 rounds.

We fully agreed that Holyfield won rounds 2,3,5 and 11 and Valuev won rounds 6,7 and 8.

The other 5 rounds there could all be some debate on and were hard to score. It should be noted that Holyfield did score more connects in 4 of those 5 however.

Upon rewatching the fight I scored it 116-115 in favour of Holyfield. Still very very close though! And I 100% dispute anyone who says it was a clearcut shutout type win still.

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Wow Valuev averaged 4.3 landed punches per round!! That's horrible. And the exclamation point is the championship round he landed one punch!!
Just out of curiousity what did Valuev do that made you give him rounds 6,7 and 8, was it just activity?

J_C you definately put the effort into judging the fight objectively, and came out with a different result. I comend you for that cause I know you had Valuev winning originally. I still think Holy won 10-2 or 9-3 based on his better percentage landed and more punches landed. The close rounds I couldnt give to give to Valuev based on him only landing 3 or 4 punches and Holyfield landing more while staying a step ahead and making Valuev miss. Still low numbers but enough to win the rounds. No masterpiece by any means but Evander should have won.

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Originally Posted by Kel

Evander bounced around on his toes

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Hes not back on reality telly in a ball room dancing competition unfortunately, Valuev did outland him, Holyfield did bugger all other then skirt around the ring:rolleyes:

Way past time for Holyfield to retire. Valuev won.

The judges actually was doing Holyfield a favor, IMO. Sending him a message to hang it up while he still can, and before getting seriously hurt.