Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
OK, I understand your frustration Legion, and I understand that watching not only the way Wlad fights but the way his opponents seem to forget all they have learned about boxing after eating a couple jabs from him can be a bit repetitive and frustrating but given what he does to what is currently top competition IS meaningful and it is remarkable. So Wladimir isn't exciting, he IS dominant...so he doesn't mix it up, but he DOES get the KO's. We can spend all day comparing and contrasting Wladimir to all the other champions this division has seen, but he's not in a position to prove himself against those All-Time greats and I know a ton of people would think that Wlad would lose to all of them all of the time, but I think that is not relevant to the situation and it's not a worthwhile argument to have.
People sooner or later will have to respect or at least accept what Wladimir has accomplished in the division. People can hate on Tyson's division, Louis' division, Marciano's division, just as easily as they can hate on Wladimir's division but it doesn't diminish what it means to be THE Heavyweight Champion of the World...Wlad has not backed away from fighting anyone, he's learned from his mistakes, he's avenged defeat, he's gotten up off the canvas to win, he's worked through being cut to win, and he continues to dominate. I'm not saying he's the greatest of All-Time or anything, but he has put together a very good record and has dominated his era and he's only 32 so if he had 8-10 more fights (fighting 2 times a year) and won them all at his current KO% he'd have a record of something like 63 wins and like 55 KO's vs just 3 losses and I don't care what era you're fighting in that would be considered GREAT in my book. Wlad is already a Hall of Famer IMO
I think your first paragraph here is fair. But, you have to understand that it isnt hating on him, its just saying what ive seen, I even like Wlad. But he is a two punch fighter right now and he is overly cautious. He doesnt need to be either of those things, but he is. In the past he has shown a greater instinct and threw more punches than a jab and straight right. I also think it is fair to say that he doesnt have a career defining win either. Most HOFers have beat future hall of famers to become one, or at least a some of great/very good fighters. Wlad hasnt done that. Thats not his fault imo, because they are all garbage, but I cant call him great cause hes never been in a position to show if he is. I dont think he is, but thats not even an issue. Wlad will probably get in the hall when his career is over based on his accomplishments on paper and possible records that he could set. But I dont agree with your criteria for him being great because he could have 55kos in 63 fights or whatever.
Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
Moorer was a good boxer,WHO CAME TO FIGHT PERIOD!
Im not saying Moorer is a worldbeater, I'm advocating in this era of Heavies Moorer would be damn good
So tell me Pea, Fightfan and Lyle who on Wlads record is better than Prime Michael Moorer?
Would you rate Ruslan Chagaev who is #3 Heavy higher than a Prime Moorer if he was in this era? I doubt it:rolleyes:
Plus I have no doubt any version of George Foreman even the 45 year old version would beat Wlad. You geniuses forget Moorer was beating george and busting him up until he ran into Georges right hand. How many guys you know that could take a Foreman flush power shot?
Lyle! I loke how you ignored the other fighters on my list and went right to dispariging Tyson, you honestly think Wlad would beat Tyson. The guys you mentioned took the fight to tyson and werent scared, Wlad wouldnt take the fight to a grocery bagger let alone MIKE TYSON.
Fighting tentatively and scared against Tyson would get Wlad KTFO
Tyson would easily slip the jab and rip Wlads body and jaw it would be funny to watch Wlad flop around the ring like a fish out of water while Tyson took him to the woodshed
Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
holmcall
If you listened to B.J. Flores yesterday, you would think Wlad was and is the most exciting fighter since Sugar Ray Robinson. Huh!What was that all about? And the other guy called the fight a "tour de force."
The dictionary defines "Tour de force" as "an exceptional achievement by an artist, author, or the like, that is unlikely to be equaled by that person or anyone else."
These guys have got to stop insulting us and start talking real sense. The hype machines are taking over and it's adding to a growing freak show aura.
Well people said much the same about Hopkins wins over Pavlik and Tarver and this was a lot more entertaining than either of them,
Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
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Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Nope, Never
Holyfield
Prime Bowe
Lewis
Prime Tyson
Michael Moorer
Would all beat Wlad, he is a very mediocre fighter in a lackluster division. I agree no one can outbox him currently, because there all stiffs.
Ruslan#3 yea ok 10 or so years ago he wouldnt even be a top 20.
Wlad is the best now, fine but its the weakest heavyweight era I can ever remember.
Congrats Wlad your king of the garbage dump:rolleyes:;D
Are those guys fighting right now? Is it 100% certain that those guys could hang with Wladimir??? No, so all you have is a fucking opinion and I do believe that everyone has an opinion.
"Wlad wouldn't stand a chance vs a Prime ____" ...you can fuck off that's what you can do because a Prime ____ ain't walking through that door. Mike Tyson got beat by Buster Douglas, Kevin McBride and Danny Williams and was getting worked over by Frans Botha before Tyson tried to break his arms....so don't give me this shit.
I agree completely Lyle. People always say this fighter couldn't hang with that one, he'd destroy him in 4 rounds or whatever but its very very very rarely the case when you are talking about the elite of the sport.
The margin of talent and ability is so small that just a slight advantage, even to how a fighter is feeling on the day can make all the difference.
I really doubt Michael Moorer could beat Wladimir, a great fighter but too small and not enough power to hurt a cautious, jabbing Wlad. I think he'd have an excellent chance of beating even a prime Holyfield too for the same reasons.
Tyson, who really knows. Sure he could land immediately and end it in the first couple of rounds or he could have got frustrated, full of self doubt and just imploded. Tyson was never invincible, he always had a weak mindset and he'd have been every bit as intimidated of Wlad as Wlad would of him.
Certainly if Tyson landed it would be lights out but he wasn't very effective against Bonecrusher Smith in his prime and I think Wlad is several levels above that.
If he fought smart the Wlad of today would have a chance of beating even a prime Tyson if he fought a perfect fight, far far lesser men than Wlad have knocked him out so he was in no way unbeatable.
I can't think of a single heavyweight who has ever lived who you could say would certainly have an easy night against Wlad. It's one thing to just say he's chinny and he'll get destroyed but if his jabe stops them from landing and he can keep himself safe then as we've seen he's tremendously difficult to beat.
Sure he could lose to any of the best guys but this idea that all they have to do is turn up is absurd.
And Tyson never beat a heavyweight as good as Wladimir either.
Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
He would not defeat a prime Holyfield umm Imo......:biteit:.Larger & nicely skilled but flawed by regiment.Holyfield would find a way under and come up on the inside.Wlads comfort zone would evaporate and I think Holyfield the better hooker (:cwm13:)
Have to throw in...Moorer was solid boxer-puncher.Fluid hitter with a mental block.If he stood on the outside jabbing to get it,I think Wlad takes him out off range.Some of the better quicker hands at Hvy....but feet not so much.
Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
He would not defeat a prime Holyfield umm Imo......:biteit:.Larger & nicely skilled but flawed by regiment.Holyfield would find a way under and come up on the inside.Wlads comfort zone would evaporate and I think Holyfield the better hooker (:cwm13:)
Have to throw in...Moorer was solid boxer-puncher.Fluid hitter with a mental block.If he stood on the outside jabbing to get it,I think Wlad takes him out off range.Some of the better quicker hands at Hvy....but feet not so much.
You have no way of proving that Evander would have beaten Wlad. I'm not arguing that Wlad is anywhere near as exciting as Evander or has his chin and toughness, but his size and jab would cause Evander problems, just like it would cause anybody problems.
Evander never beat a prime fighter as good as Wlad with those height and reach advantages. It would have been a very tough fight and could easily have gone either way.
Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
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Originally Posted by
BoomBoom
I dont even think hes miles ahead of Valuev in terms of skill, he just hits much harder and is faster.
THis is the most ridicoulous comment I've heard in a while. Dude, Valuev is nothing compared to Wlad. Wlad has power , speed and he's great technically , he rarely gets hit nowadays. And that DOES take skill to do so (keep fighter at range and use feet etc)
Valuev clearly lost to Chagaev btw
Chagaev was shutout and ko'd by Wladimir
Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
Wladimir has come to grow as a fighter. He knows his limitations well now and so he won't be so easy to knockout. He is very cautious because he knows he can not bang. His chin is not glass but its not heavyweight standard. In the weak heavyweight division its not really fair to Wlad that he can not be really tested. And why is everyone talking about Wlad like he the dominant heavyweight champ? Vitali is the man of the division. Does anyone really think Wlad is better??? Now comparing Vitali to the heavyweight past greats is the real warranted discussion!
Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
boozeboxer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BoomBoom
Yeah, I think he said something like it was a brilliant performance and Wlad is a great tactical heavyweight. What I saw was a winning but very basic performance with a big man doing the same thing over and over and having sucess with it because hes so freakin big and hits hard. The heavyweight division is the only division, that a fight like that would be praised. Wlad wasnt spectacular. He won, and I give him credit for it, but it was a limited performance from what I saw. Take away Wlads power, and he is not a great techical fighter at all. I dont even think hes miles ahead of Valuev in terms of skill, he just hits much harder and is faster.
Take away PBF's speed and he isn't technical either. I mean take the greatest trait from any fighter and they are pretty damn ordinary. ;)
PBF isn't even that fast... he just reads ahead. he reads opponents very well, has a great boxing brain and excellently rehearsed instinctual patterns and responses to punches.
So yeah... take his speed away and he's still one skilled mofo.
Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rowlesy
Saying that about his victories, you have to look at who he has beaten. It's one hell of a padded record. It's a very sad indictment of the division that someone like Wlad can just jab there way to the top and be so very boring.
...well after a post like that I don't even have to call you a hater you're proudly promoting yourself as one without any help from the like of me.
Wladimir does what he does, he comes to fight in shape, he gets the KO's and he doesn't get hit. He's not Mike Tyson, he's not Evander Holyfield but he has achieved so much already and he's just 32 so he's got a lot left in him.
Sure the guys Wlad has fought recently have mainly been fighting to stay alive Tyson had similar issues as did Lennox Lewis and they had tough fights on account of it and they weren't fun to watch. But that isn't a testament to how weak the division is, it's a testament to how good of a fighter Wladimir is, that a very experienced pro like Chagaev can just be baffled by the size, the skill, and the athletism of Wladimir and have no answer for it.
But go ahead and hate away...I'll enjoy it all the more when David Haye gets smacked down like the punk he is
I don't hate anyone you sanctimounious prick. Because I call him boring I'm a hater? If he was entertaining I would love him, but he's as boring as hell. All he does is jab jab and then right hand. I saw him throw maybe one uppercut and possibly three hooks that entire fight.
Quote:
But that isn't a testament to how weak the division is
Really? So him fighting fighters who are 'fighting to stay alive' doesn't show how weak the division is does it not? The division is on its arse and you know it. But because you're a 'fanboy' you refuse to accept that Wlad's record is nowhere near as good as it looks.
Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
Wlad is definitely better than most of the hate that has been stated above; Sure, the division is not as exciting as it once was but that doesn't mean that neither Vitali or Wlad are just on the top of a garbage bin. I think that the biggest problem peoples have with Wlad is that he doesn't fight excitingly but there again, he's a Kronk type of boxer, was Lewis anymore exciting? Nope, it was even worst in some way as he was allwayyss grabbing when peoples were getting closer. Worst modern champion? 2 words: John Ruiz. End of the story. Mchael Moorer? definitely not, he would get killed by Wlad.
The Real Deal at its peak? If Lewis did beat him, Wlad definitely can, especially as their size and fighting style are more or less the same with the same kind of chin. Prime Tyson? Tyson lost his soul against Douglas and got totally humiliated by LEwis with the jab jab powerhand strategy, it could be the same against Wlad, I am not saying that Wlad automatically wins but he would definitely has all his chances.
I would go as far as saying that if Wlad would head from North America or England, he would have much more respect and a lot more fan over the pond.
I can understand and accept why peoples don't like Wlad or the state of the actual division but a bit more moderation would be welcome in the "acid" remarks made toward him.
Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Moorer was a good boxer,WHO CAME TO FIGHT PERIOD!
Im not saying Moorer is a worldbeater, I'm advocating in this era of Heavies Moorer would be damn good
So tell me Pea, Fightfan and Lyle who on Wlads record is better than Prime Michael Moorer?
Would you rate Ruslan Chagaev who is #3 Heavy higher than a Prime Moorer if he was in this era? I doubt it:rolleyes:
Plus I have no doubt any version of George Foreman even the 45 year old version would beat Wlad. You geniuses forget Moorer was beating george and busting him up until he ran into Georges right hand. How many guys you know that could take a Foreman flush power shot?
Lyle! I loke how you ignored the other fighters on my list and went right to dispariging Tyson, you honestly think Wlad would beat Tyson. The guys you mentioned took the fight to tyson and werent scared, Wlad wouldnt take the fight to a grocery bagger let alone MIKE TYSON.
Fighting tentatively and scared against Tyson would get Wlad KTFO
Tyson would easily slip the jab and rip Wlads body and jaw it would be funny to watch Wlad flop around the ring like a fish out of water while Tyson took him to the woodshed
OK IMO he lost to Evander. I had Evander ahead by one round, he then lost too an old slow George Foreman. Barely scraped by Axel Schultz,and the white Buffalo Frans Botha. Vaugh Bean was probably the most boring fight I have ever watched in my life period. Yes I would take Chageav a 6'2 225 lbs and Moorer probably at the same weight I would have took Chageav from what I've seen before Wlad disposed of him.
The version of Tyson after jail Wlad would have destroyed no doubt about it in my mind. The Lennox fight I wold say who's jaw would hold up first, Holyfield Wlad would do decent against and keep him at bay. Bowe had one good fight IMO against Holyfield in the first fight and then went completly to shit. Another heavyweight I thought could have done a bunch but because he is retarded and ate himself to death completly overrated. I would give Wlad a good chance against everyone of these fighter's at this point in his career.
Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
Everyone fails to recognize what Spicoli has said already. Wlad has a definitive comfort zone, when it is compromised he unravels. His only adjustment is to hold like he was clinging to a life preserver.
Those guys I mentioned came to fight.
Tyson
Lewis
Holyfield
Bowe
Moorer
Those guys were tough, had heart and a fighting spirit. The problem with the heavyweight division is, European fighters for the most part need to read there opposition from a comfort level and a distance.(Quote from Emmanuel Steward on how Ricky Hattons style was made to beat Tszyu)
Now when you look at the influx of European fighters that are in the Heavyweight division Chagaev, Imbragimov, Povetkin, Wlad Klitschko etc. They are good Boxers NOT GOOD FIGHTERS. Wlad being so big and enjoying a size advantage those guys cant outbox him. Yet they wouldnt try to press and push him and unravel him they try to box from the outside and they get picked off.
The guy that beats Wlad wont be a guy that out boxes him, its a guy who jumps in and presses and fights. Thats why fighters like David Haye and Chris Arreola are such intriguing matchups.
There going to try and fight and impose there will, there not safety 1st guys there the kind of exciting fighters that we come to enjoy from our Heavyweight Champion of the world. Its unimagineable to think a 6'7 240lb carved out of a statue physique who hits like a mule dosent finish a guy who he clearly out guns by a longshot, he dosent even try.
If Wlad was a Welterweight or Middle etc, than his style would be great, but he's the damn recognized HeavyWeight Champ of the world for Chrisesakes TRY TO FRIGGIN FIGHT!!!
Wlad hasnt even had a career defining fight that galvanizes his legacy.
Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
The Klit-Chageav fight went according to script. No surprises
whatsoever. The thing that makes a Haye fight potentially intriguing is that Haye will take more risks. While that may likely put him in harm's way and get him chilled, it still will make for a more exciting fight. And if Haye
can somehow get Wlad to take some risks (which is not his wont), he just might have a chance to land that explosive right hand. All in all, a more fan-friendly affair.
Re: B. J. Flores' comments on Wlad yesterday
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JT Rock
Everyone fails to recognize what Spicoli has said already. Wlad has a definitive comfort zone, when it is compromised he unravels. His only adjustment is to hold like he was clinging to a life preserver.
Those guys I mentioned came to fight.
Tyson
Lewis
Holyfield
Bowe
Moorer
Those guys were tough, had heart and a fighting spirit. The problem with the heavyweight division is, European fighters for the most part need to read there opposition from a comfort level and a distance.(Quote from Emmanuel Steward on how Ricky Hattons style was made to beat Tszyu)
Now when you look at the influx of European fighters that are in the Heavyweight division Chagaev, Imbragimov, Povetkin, Wlad Klitschko etc. They are good Boxers NOT GOOD FIGHTERS. Wlad being so big and enjoying a size advantage those guys cant outbox him. Yet they wouldnt try to press and push him and unravel him they try to box from the outside and they get picked off.
The guy that beats Wlad wont be a guy that out boxes him, its a guy who jumps in and presses and fights. Thats why fighters like David Haye and Chris Arreola are such intriguing matchups.
There going to try and fight and impose there will, there not safety 1st guys there the kind of exciting fighters that we come to enjoy from our Heavyweight Champion of the world. Its unimagineable to think a 6'7 240lb carved out of a statue physique who hits like a mule dosent finish a guy who he clearly out guns by a longshot, he dosent even try.
If Wlad was a Welterweight or Middle etc, than his style would be great, but he's the damn recognized HeavyWeight Champ of the world for Chrisesakes TRY TO FRIGGIN FIGHT!!!
Wlad hasnt even had a career defining fight that galvanizes his legacy.
Good post for the most part but I do ask about the fighter's who have jumped in and fought him, you mean too tell not one of them has already try this without Wlad knocking the shit out of them. Thing is yes maybe there would be fighter's who jump in like Haye or Arreola but it's the fact that the would be hit so cleanly and hard as hell they will basically unravel themselves saying "holy fuck I'd better not do that again" alas making their style and the fight reverert back to a "boring ass" Wlad controlled fight.
